Realising nobody is here.....

[JayJ]

Hi

Not sure about what you mean by 'arise': this reminds me a little bit of spiritual-teaching lingo. Wondering exactly what you are meaning by this word. Appearing? Seeming to be there? or something else?

It is spiritual teaching lingo its what Im use to right now haha , anyway what I meant by that was by your definition to be "appearing". So "Jay" only appears as being in existence when a thought says so. Hope that makes sense.

Ok so let's have a look at this 'seems-to-be-an-experience' "Jay" So could you sit for another 2-3 minutes and note down all the sensations (E). Which of those are 'Jay" and which are just life (apparently) happening?
Notice all the (T)'s to, including any which refer to 'I', 'Jay', 'me', 'my' or 'mine'? Are they anything more than mental assumptions, mental constructs?

Ok I am just sitting in my lounge watching a funny movie right now.

watching the movie (E)
this movie is funnier than last time I saw it years ago (T)
Head feeling spacious (E)
Wife calls me upstairs (E)
Annoyed it was for no good reason (T)
Trying to complete this exercise but was distracted (T)
Watching movie again (E)
Tingling in head again (E)
will report back but feeling confuse (T)

Same as the previous exercise but still confused as to the difference between experience and thought, I have listed a few things there but when looking harder maybe they are all thought. Example the tingling in head, it is just a simple tingling but then I have to word it and it becomes a thought. I guess we agreed that would happen previously.

Thanks
Jay

[ElPortal]

Hi Jay

Ok, that's great.

So what in all that list is actually (E). If you look behind the labels in an item which you labelled (E), what is the actual (E) part? Can you try to get at that in words (even though it's kind of contradictory because words involve thought).

What is 'Jay', (or "I", "me" etc) except a thought? Can it ever be anything except a concept/thought/assumption/mental projection (T)? I am not saying it can or it can't, I am asking you to have a good look. If it can be anything except a thought, please try to describe that. (eg Is I a body?.. or something else?)

Take your time. No rushed, or 'off-the-top-of-the-head' answers please, and report on any sensations which come up remember.

Cheers

Mark

[JayJ]

Hi mate

So what in all that list is actually (E). If you look behind the labels in an item which you labelled (E), what is the actual (E) part? Can you try to get at that in words (even though it's kind of contradictory because words involve thought).

watching the movie (E)
The experience here was simply watching a movie, this was direct experience for sure.

Head feeling spacious (E)
The spacious feeling was experience as it had no label until I had to give it a label.

Wife calls me upstairs (E)
A sound was heard and the body moved, this was experience. But thought kicked in afterwards labelling it as annoying.

In fact all of the ones I labelled (E) where direct experience and only after did I label it to report back.

What is 'Jay', (or "I", "me" etc) except a thought? Can it ever be anything except a concept/thought/assumption/mental projection (T)? I am not saying it can or it can't, I am asking you to have a good look. If it can be anything except a thought, please try to describe that. (eg Is I a body?.. or something else?)

Jay seems to be something to do with this body, things need to be done and things happen all to this central object call "Jay". But saying that "Jay" doesnt appear unless a concept/thought/assumption/mental projection takes place.

I cannot locate this "Jay" but in a bundle of thoughts, these thoughts are so strong and magnetising that I cannot help but feel "I" am here somewhere.

[ElPortal]

Hi Jay

Thanks for those responses.

I cannot locate this "Jay" but in a bundle of thoughts, these thoughts are so strong and magnetising that I cannot help but feel "I" am here somewhere.

A bundle of thoughts so strong that you can't help FEELING "I" am here somewhere, or you can't helping THINKING/BELIEVING I am here? Do a bundle of thoughts truly produce a the feeling of "I", or just the believing/thinking of "I": which is it?

Jay seems to be something to do with this body, things need to be done and things happen all to this central object call "Jay".

So does this body = Jay? If so, can you have a good look, and tell me whether it's all of it, some of it, some location in it or around it? Or none of the above. After having a good scan, just tell me what feels real.
Again is this Jay really any feeling, or is it any more than a thought?

Cheers

Mark

[JayJ]

Hi Mark

Hope all is well.

I cannot locate this "Jay" but in a bundle of thoughts, these thoughts are so strong and magnetising that I cannot help but feel "I" am here somewhere.

A bundle of thoughts so strong that you can't help FEELING "I" am here somewhere, or you can't helping THINKING/BELIEVING I am here? Do a bundle of thoughts truly produce a the feeling of "I", or just the believing/thinking of "I": which is it?

Okay its more like I cannot help Thinking/Believing I am here. The thoughts produce a believing/thinking of an "I".

Jay seems to be something to do with this body, things need to be done and things happen all to this central object call "Jay".

So does this body = Jay? If so, can you have a good look, and tell me whether it's all of it, some of it, some location in it or around it? Or none of the above. After having a good scan, just tell me what feels real.
Again is this Jay really any feeling, or is it any more than a thought?

This body feels like its "Jay" but not all of it, there are thoughts that point to a "Jay" aswell. For a location it feels like its in the head, behind the eyes or the brain itself. When LOOKING there is a feeling of aliveness/presence which seems to be what I might call "I". The sense of aliveness itself is what is being seen as an "I". This aliveness/being, feeling/sense is always there regardless of thoughts or anything else.

Thanks
Jay

[ElPortal]

Ok, Jay

The sense of aliveness itself is what is being seen as an "I".

Is it possible that this sense of 'aliveness' (for want of a better word) has been assumed (ie (T) ) to be "I"? .. when in actual fact it was just the sense of 'aliveness' (or 'being', 'being alive'.. or some other groping term)?

Close your eyes, and take time over each of the following (of course noticing any sensations which come up too):-
1. Look deeply: what size are 'you'? Does it even seem to have a size?
2. Just in the firsthand now experience in this moment, are 'you' male or female?
3. Without thoughts, where is 'I'?

Cheers

Mark

[JayJ]

Hi

The sense of aliveness itself is what is being seen as an "I".

Is it possible that this sense of 'aliveness' (for want of a better word) has been assumed (ie (T) ) to be "I"? .. when in actual fact it was just the sense of 'aliveness' (or 'being', 'being alive'.. or some other groping term)?

Yes it has been assumed to be an "I" via thought. It is in fact just a sense of aliveness/being alive.

Close your eyes, and take time over each of the following (of course noticing any sensations which come up too):-
1. Look deeply: what size are 'you'? Does it even seem to have a size?

Ive looked deeply and with eyes closed have no idea what size I am, thought comes in saying I must be the size of this body. But in direct experience I have no real idea what size I might be.

2. Just in the firsthand now experience in this moment, are 'you' male or female?

Eyes closed, in this moment I have no idea if I am Male or Female or have no idea what I am whatsoever. Thought says I am a Male but thought aside in this moment no I really dont know.

3. Without thoughts, where is 'I'?

This is much easier with eyes closed to help look. So without thoughts I cannot find an "I" just like I said previously all that is felt is the sense of being.

Thank you
Jay

[JayJ]

btw Mark

Sitting here going over the last exercise some more I feel alot of energy moving around inside the body, it is stirring up but I guess this is off topic as it is kundalini energy which has come active inside me for about 1 year now.

Whenever I look this always happens. A stirring in the stomach and also in the head.

Just thought I would report that as you asked if any sensations appear during this looking.

Jay

[ElPortal]

Hi Jay,

Great responses!

So, in firsthand actual now experience, looks as though no individual "I" can be found, right? .. but let's keep looking.

Sitting here going over the last exercise some more I feel alot of energy moving around inside the body, it is stirring up but I guess this is off topic as it is kundalini energy which has come active inside me for about 1 year now.

Thanks for reporting this. So, if the label 'kundalini energy' (T) is taken away, what is left? If labels 'stomach' and 'head' are taken away, what is left? What is left in (E)?

Now let's see if we can find an "I" who is controlling anything. Please actually DO these following exercises:-
1. On the count of three get your blood to circulate in the opposite direction. Let's see how that goes.
2. On the count of five, fall asleep and then after ten wake up again. Let's see how that goes.
3. Stand up slowly and walk five paces across the room, and then turn around return and slowly sit down. What was controlling all of that? Could an individual be found 'in there' controlling anything of that, or did the body just appear to do it all?

Cheers

Mark

[JayJ]

Thanks

I am enjoying the process :)

So, in firsthand actual now experience, looks as though no individual "I" can be found, right? .. but let's keep looking.

That is right I cannot find an individual "I" in experience.

Thanks for reporting this. So, if the label 'kundalini energy' (T) is taken away, what is left? If labels 'stomach' and 'head' are taken away, what is left? What is left in (E)?

If the labels are taken away what is left is the sensation of energy moving, stomach, head and kundalini energy are again just thought labels. So yes I would say that in (E) it is just sensation. I said before sensation of moving energy but the "energy moving" part again is thought.

Now let's see if we can find an "I" who is controlling anything. Please actually DO these following exercises:-
1. On the count of three get your blood to circulate in the opposite direction. Let's see how that goes.

Sorry cannot control blood flow, I did try tho lol.

2. On the count of five, fall asleep and then after ten wake up again. Let's see how that goes.

I cannot fall asleep at will or even wake up either. I have noticed this a long time ago that I cannot choose when to wake up it just happens by itself. Even if I sleep very late I might wake up early still feeling tired. So If I had a choice I surely would have preferred to wake up much later.

3. Stand up slowly and walk five paces across the room, and then turn around return and slowly sit down. What was controlling all of that? Could an individual be found 'in there' controlling anything of that, or did the body just appear to do it all?

Ok so I got up walked 5 steps turned round came back and sat down! I dont know what was controlling all of that the body just did as you asked and it was finished. I cannot find an individual that could have controlled that exercise it just happened. It is a little confusing but then confusion is just another thought label.
"I" still find this confusing tho, how is this happening if there is no "I". I will try again some more times.

Thanks again
Jay

[ElPortal]

Ok Jay,

Great work again.

That is right I cannot find an individual "I" in experience.

Oh dear, better look harder!

Let me know if you can find a controller in that walking up and down, getting up and sitting down.

Now, let's look to see if we can find any autonomous chooser there:-

Imagine for a moment (take some time to visual this in the mind's eye) a scene: one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground, the grass, weather conditions etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or is it more the product of environmental conditions and water, like an an ever-changing pattern?

A. Now, consider, looking back on your day, or week, or your life: can you find anywhere where 'I' clearly autonomously intervened into life, choosing something that is not simply the product of all life's elements, that is not a part of the overall flow, like the flow of the mountain stream?

B. Now please raise one hand in front of your face, and then wiggle the fingers around for a few seconds.
1. Can you find an individual entity there which chose which hand or which fingers to wiggle?
2. Did 'you' choose which order to wiggle fingers in, or did it just happen without any decider?
3. Did 'you' choose which direction to wiggle the fingers in, or did it just happen by itself without any decider?

Cheers

Mark

[JayJ]

ok

Let me know if you can find a controller in that walking up and down, getting up and sitting down.

I cannot find a controller that made the body walk up and down, thought comes in saying "I" did that but in direct experience it just happened and cannot find an entity that can claim the action.

Not sure if this helps but thoughts have become very few and far between, not many thoughts are arising since the looking started today.

Imagine for a moment (take some time to visual this in the mind's eye) a scene: one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions?
Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground, the grass, weather conditions etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or is it more the product of environmental conditions and water, like an an ever-changing pattern?

The stream cannot choose any of its direction, it just flows by itself based entirely on the environmental conditions it encounters. I agree this is ever changing pattern happening moment by moment. I see that it cannot be different from the water deposited in it, but does seem separate from rocks, trees, depressions in the ground etc.

A. Now, consider, looking back on your day, or week, or your life: can you find anywhere where 'I' clearly autonomously intervened into life, choosing something that is not simply the product of all life's elements, that is not a part of the overall flow, like the flow of the mountain stream?

I cannot find a "time" when "I" automatically intervened into life. It is just a flow like the stream you mentioned. Everything is just happening all by itself without the need for an "I" entity. A moment to moment flow that no "I" can intervene and change.

B. Now please raise one hand in front of your face, and then wiggle the fingers around for a few seconds.
1. Can you find an individual entity there which chose which hand or which fingers to wiggle?

I automatically lifted my right hand and the fingers started to wiggle. There doesnt seem to be anyway to control such finger wiggling it is too fast and to complicated for a ME to do such an action.

2. Did 'you' choose which order to wiggle fingers in, or did it just happen without any decider?

I did not choose which fingers that now seems a little absurd that an "I" entity could do this as its just too complicated. Also too fast for a controller to be able to complete.

3. Did 'you' choose which direction to wiggle the fingers in, or did it just happen by itself without any decider?

Same as above answer, it just happened by itself cannot find a "I" that could have done this.


Thanks again mate
Jay

[ElPortal]

Hi Jay

Great answers.

So, bearing in mind the image of the stream, the (lack of) autnomous intervening into life, the wiggling-finger experience, Can you find anything in Life that 'you' are truly responsible for? Or does it all just kind of 'auto-happen'? Have a good look, see if you can find something.

...again noticing any bodily sensations which arise...

Cheers

Mark

[JayJ]

Thanks

So, bearing in mind the image of the stream, the (lack of) autnomous intervening into life, the wiggling-finger experience, Can you find anything in Life that 'you' are truly responsible for? Or does it all just kind of 'auto-happen'? Have a good look, see if you can find something.

...again noticing any bodily sensations which arise...

After the wiggling fingerg experience things became clearer that "I" cannot control what happens moment to moment or whatsoever actually. Being responsible for "my" actions now seems very strange. So if I was to react negatively to another person for "their" actions it is just happening. I cannot control my reactions as much as I cannot control the weather. All this is just auto-happening. Even typing this response to you right now, I cannot locate an "I" it is just happening as if by magic, but that again is just another thought.
Regarding bodily sensations, still feeling the energy moving inside the body as I keep looking for this illusory "I". But there is a sense of an I still here but I guess that sense/being is always going to be there and is actually unmoving.

Cheers
Jay

[ElPortal]

Hi Jay

Great!

Regarding bodily sensations, still feeling the energy moving inside the body as I keep looking for this illusory "I". But there is a sense of an I still here but I guess that sense/being is always going to be there and is actually unmoving.

If the belief that this was 'I, rather than just the feeling of aliveness appearing in various ways, isn't that now rumbled?
Is it ok if (conditioned) thoughts of "I" appear from time to time? Do they EVER need to be believed?
Is a real "I" EVER found in direct experience?
If you are clear on this, then we can move to some summary questions, (and do further looking into various issues in a different forum later).

Remember, in my first response I wrote:-

If you are looking for attain some special state, then I cannot help you, but if you are up for looking into what is, has only ever been, and can only ever be the case, then we can look together if you like.

Experiences and apparent 'states' are moving and evolving all the time. Thoughts come and go. What we are looking into here is what has always been the case all along.

Let me know if you have any further issues you would like to raise before we move onto our summary questions.

Cheers

Mark