I would love a guide to help me!

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

Please answer the following questions, and if there is a 'yes' to any of them, please report on the actual experience/sensation of 'me' there:-

1. Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Yes, see below.

2. Or a self that is 'the doer', or can control what happens?

No

3. Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

No

4. Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

No

5. Can "the body" be found to be any more than label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Not sure I understand the question clearly. Would you rephrase it?

6. Can the five body senses be found to be experienced or caused by this ‘self’, rather than simply being unexplainable happenings?

No

7. Can a self be found ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Yes sometimes.

8. Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Yes, see below.

What I finding when looking is there still is a intermittent sense of me. It is an alive visceral feeling that starts in the center of my heart area and moves out in all directions. It comes and goes with attention to it. It seems to be prevalent with emotion such as relationship and family issues. I feel this thought (t) but it feels so real. When I’m driving my car or alone in nature I can’t find a self at all, it feels connected to everything, just life flowing seamlessly.

Jill

[ElPortal]

HI Jill

Thanks for those responses.

5. Can "the body" be found to be any more than label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

This is could be rephrased as 'can a real 'me' be found in the bodily sensations (such as touch and interior sensations)?'

1. Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?
Yes, see below.
What I finding when looking is there still is a intermittent sense of me. It is an alive visceral feeling that starts in the center of my heart area and moves out in all directions. It comes and goes with attention to it. It seems to be prevalent with emotion such as relationship and family issues. I feel this thought (t) but it feels so real. When I’m driving my car or alone in nature I can’t find a self at all, it feels connected to everything, just life flowing seamlessly.

So can you look for two examples of such a 'sense of me', AS IT ARISES, as opposed to 'in retrospect'.
a) Observe all the bodily sensations which come up, which feel so real and alive and immediate (E).
b) Now, the sense which says 'this is me': is that (T) or is that (E)?
c) Any feelings are real (immediate), but are the thoughts about 'me' real (except as a thought/explanation/claim made)?
d) There may be an appetite to believe them, but is there any need to believe them?

Cheers

Mark

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

This is could be rephrased as 'can a real 'me' be found in the bodily sensations (such as touch and interior sensations)?

No

So can you look for two examples of such a 'sense of me', AS IT ARISES, as opposed to 'in retrospect'.
a) Observe all the bodily sensations which come up, which feel so real and alive and immediate (E).
b) Now, the sense which says 'this is me': is that (T) or is that (E)?
c) Any feelings are real (immediate), but are the thoughts about 'me' real (except as a thought/explanation/claim made)?
d) There may be an appetite to believe them, but is there any need to believe them?

Thanks for these questions, they really helped to sort out what was going on. I think I was confusing feelings for a “me”. When I looked at the sensation of “me” it turned out to be just a thought. The emotional sensation was there but the mind put a label of “me” on it. I saw that clearly when I was having a disagreement with my partner and feelings of frustration came up. I felt that sensation in my heart area first, then a split second later, automatically, the thought of “me” came up. I was on the lookout all day for times the sense of “me” showed up. As we where spending the day together and he can be rather negative at times, it happened several times again with other intense emotions. I saw right through it through each time.

It was very freeing and I’m trying to process all of it right now but it seems like it was a stumbling block in seeing through the fog.

Thanks,
Jill

[ElPortal]

HI Jill.

Some great looking and noticing there! Looks like a stumbling block might just have been busted?

Look for another day at a few more examples, and see if the same thing holds. Can you notice how, when something emotional or slightly threatening happens, there is a tendency for the body to tighten up slightly (maybe the sense of animal threat, who knows?) and for an old, conditioned 'me'-worldview (T) to 'slip in', maybe out of habit? For that 'me' thought to spring in and to interpret the bodily feelings as 'proof that this is me'..? See if this feels true (or something approximately like that) and let me know. If it does, is any of that "me-ing" anything other than thought/assumption?

Question 1: these and other thoughts were assumed traditionally to originate 'from ME'? But behind that assumption, what do you find? Is even that assumption anything other than a thought? Can we really know where they come from?

Question 2: can any individual actually be found there except as a thought, assumption, memory, hearsay, assumption?

Cheers

Mark

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

Look for another day at a few more examples, and see if the same thing holds. Can you notice how, when something emotional or slightly threatening happens, there is a tendency for the body to tighten up slightly (maybe the sense of animal threat, who knows?) and for an old, conditioned 'me'-worldview (T) to 'slip in', maybe out of habit? For that 'me' thought to spring in and to interpret the bodily feelings as 'proof that this is me'..? See if this feels true (or something approximately like that) and let me know. If it does, is any of that "me-ing" anything other than thought/assumption?

I have looked at it in
other instances and the “me” shows up each time and is realized as a thought. It seems to be habitual.

Question 1: these and other thoughts were assumed traditionally to originate 'from ME'? But behind that assumption, what do you find? Is even that assumption anything other than a thought? Can we really know where they come from?

Yes, I can see them as thoughts. I originally use to think thoughts came from my mind but I don’t seem to have control over them, so I don’t know where they come from.

Question 2: can any individual actually be found there except as a thought, assumption, memory, hearsay, assumption?

Now that I’m not 100% sure of. As I said earlier in the thread, I have had times where I can’t find a “me” at all and there is no separation in anything. But I then at other times I feel a distinct separation.

I don’t understand if I’ve seen that there is no “me” why doesn’t it “stick”?

Jill

[ElPortal]

HI Jill

Thanks for that.

Now that I’m not 100% sure of. As I said earlier in the thread, I have had times where I can’t find a “me” at all and there is no separation in anything. But I then at other times I feel a distinct separation.

I don’t understand if I’ve seen that there is no “me” why doesn’t it “stick”?

If there has been a lifetime of a sense of me being inculcated, why would there sometimes not be an assumption of 'a separate individual' or an acting as though there were one?

What we have to do then is to LOOK for it, isn't it? I invite you to take time with each of the following questions:-

1. Find an example of a real me, in direct experience, that is not simply a thought/assumption/supposition of one.
2. With eyes closed, sit for a while and consider from FIRSTHAND NOW experience: what size are you?
3. With eyes closed, sit for a while and consider from FIRSTHAND NOW experience: are you male or female?

Cheers

Mark

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

If there has been a lifetime of a sense of me being inculcated, why would there sometimes not be an assumption of 'a separate individual' or an acting as though there were one?

I agree, I guess there was an expectation that once you see through the illusion of a self, you can’t unsee it.

What we have to do then is to LOOK for it, isn't it? I invite you to take time with each of the following questions:-

1. Find an example of a real me, in direct experience, that is not simply a thought/assumption/supposition of one.

I can’t find one in direct experience.

2. With eyes closed, sit for a while and consider from FIRSTHAND NOW experience: what size are you?

I can’t tell.

3. With eyes closed, sit for a while and consider from FIRSTHAND NOW experience: are you male or female?

No way to tell with direct experience.

Jill

[ElPortal]

Hi Jill

I agree, I guess there was an expectation that once you see through the illusion of a self, you can’t unsee it.

Good that you noticed this expectation. I wonder if you can identify where it came from (eg some book, some teacher?), and any sensations associated with it? How could seeing ever be anywhere except in this moment? How could seeing ever be applied retrospectively? Can 'retrospective' ever exist except as a thought (T)?

So, can we put aside any expectation as to how this seeing will feel and appear? Can we instead live a life of 'looking', re-examining every aspect (instead of living via assumptions)?

Cheers

Mark

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

Good that you noticed this expectation. I wonder if you can identify where it came from (eg some book, some teacher?), and any sensations associated with it? How could seeing ever be anywhere except in this moment? How could seeing ever be applied retrospectively? Can 'retrospective' ever exist except as a thought (T)?

I don’t know where I got it from. I can’t pinpoint any specific sensations that are associated with it.

Seeing can only be in the now. Anything in the past is just a thought.

So, can we put aside any expectation as to how this seeing will feel and appear? Can we instead live a life of 'looking', re-examining every aspect (instead of living via assumptions)?

Yes, I understand it is different for everybody in the way seeing happens. I guess I had some assumptions that needed to be looked at and just need to do some straight ‘looking’ without assumptions.

Jill

[ElPortal]

Ok Jill

So, 2 more questions now to follow on from the 7 I sent you before:-

8. Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

9. Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

Cheers

Mark

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

Just checking in. I fell at work yesterday and injured my knee. Will get back to soon.

Jill

[ElPortal]

Ok Jill,

Mend that body soon, and I look forward to hearing from you when you are ready.

Cheers

Mark

[Jilda]

8. Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

9. Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

Hi Mark,

Still recovering from a knee injury from my fall at work but have some down time to ponder your questions.

These where my notes a couple days ago before I was injured:

When I considered these questions I immediately had an unsettled feeling (e), tightening of my chest(e), doubts about clear seeing(t) and thoughts about not being finished(t).

So yes, there are doubts about seeing through the illusion of self though there is no “me”.

Since then after experiencing all the pain, dealing with the hospital, doctors, etc., it has been a very “me” experience centered on the body. It is as if a “me” was reconstructed. Feelings of a “Jill” are centered in the body but when I look I can’t find any evidence of a “Jill”.

Since I have plenty of time now to work on this inquiry while recuperating, I wonder if you could point me in the right direction with some questions?

Thank you,
Jill

[ElPortal]

Hi Jill

Thanks for your response.

So yes, there are doubts about seeing through the illusion of self though there is no “me”..

haha, that's the funniest thing I have read all day!

Since then after experiencing all the pain, dealing with the hospital, doctors, etc., it has been a very “me” experience centered on the body. It is as if a “me” was reconstructed. Feelings of a “Jill” are centered in the body but when I look I can’t find any evidence of a “Jill”.

Ok, so no real 'me' can be found but there's still an appetite to play at me, by taking the bodily feelings as 'me', right?
What need is there to spoil the fun of 'me'?

What should be different in this moment?

Cheers

Mark

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

haha, that's the funniest thing I have read all day!

I’m glad I made you laugh!

Ok, so no real 'me' can be found but there's still an appetite to play at me, by taking the bodily feelings as 'me', right?

Since you put it that way, then yes, I suppose that’s what’s going on.

What need is there to spoil the fun of 'me'?

To see the truth.

What should be different in this moment?

I was going to initially say, too be pain-free and to not be stuck at home but then the thought came, who controls that?, no one, so everything is as it should be. I don’t have like it. Who’s not liking it? No one.

Jill