I would love a guide to help me!

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ElPortal
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Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:12 am

HI Jill

Thanks for those responses.
I was going to initially say, too be pain-free and to not be stuck at home but then the thought came, who controls that?, no one, so everything is as it should be. I don’t have like it. Who’s not liking it? No one.
Great!

I would just like to refer you back to the very first reply I gave you when we started this dialogue:-
What we will look into here is not about changing to any better state or experience. It is simply looking into what has only ever always been the case, whether there has ever been any real separate individual here/there. Are you ok with that?
... and also to something from the LU home page: FAQ: what LU is not:-
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
When thoughts claim that there is a separate individual, does that make it true? Is anything wrong with that thought commentary being there? Does it have to be believed?

Is there enough interest and curiosity to question that 'me' thought each time it pops up? eg To close eyes and question again "ok then,1. how large is this 'me'", and 2. "is this me male or femaie?'

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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ElPortal
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Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:54 pm

Skype Conversation (typed):-

[23/07/2016, 15:58:35] Mark: ok where would you like to start? do you have any response to what I wrote earlier in LU?
[23/07/2016, 15:59:49] Jilda: have to read it again.. hold on.
[23/07/2016, 16:00:55] Jilda: I agree on both paragraphs.

[23/07/2016, 16:01:13] Mark: So where is this 'me' right now?
[23/07/2016, 16:03:49] Jilda: I can't find this "me" anywhere but there is a sense of me there. sometimes I wonder is if I am confusing this with a sense of being /awareness.
[23/07/2016, 16:03:59] Mark: aHA
[23/07/2016, 16:04:10] Mark: an aliveness? a sort of knowing (hard to express in words)?
[23/07/2016, 16:04:30] Jilda: yes!
[23/07/2016, 16:04:33] Markl: cool
[23/07/2016, 16:04:41] Mark: is that in E or in T?
[23/07/2016, 16:05:00] Jilda: definitely an "e"
[23/07/2016, 16:05:02] Mark: cool
[23/07/2016, 16:05:39] Markl: so sounds like you've been confusing what you call the 'sense of me' with a 'sense of aliveness' (for want of a better term)?
[23/07/2016, 16:07:32] Jilda: yes, everytime I feel a "me" I look and I don't find a "me" but that sense of awareness.
[23/07/2016, 16:09:18] Mark: sounds good... and the 'sense of aliveness or awareness' E has often been 'taken to be me' T or 'thought to be me' T, of if those thoughts have been taken to be true, BELIEVED to be 'me' T, is that right?
[23/07/2016, 16:11:00] Jilda: yes I'm thinking back, I think that's true. thoughts come in after and claim a me, makes perfect sense.
[23/07/2016, 16:11:15] Mark: ok how does this feel, to see this?
[23/07/2016, 16:11:43] Mark: (even though we are in a realtime dialogue, still take time to LOOK, and feel, rather than answering 'off the top of the head')
[23/07/2016, 16:11:55] Mark: (you're doing great so far)
[23/07/2016, 16:13:52] Jilda: good, did me it's been a very slow gradual transition plus a back and forth kind of thing, so no bells and whistles.
[23/07/2016, 16:14:01] Mark: hehe great
[23/07/2016, 16:14:08] Mark: kind of totally normal?
[23/07/2016, 16:15:20] Jilda: yes very normal, nothing earth shattering but a different way of looking at life, too.
[23/07/2016, 16:15:53] Mark: ok is it ok, or were you hoping to get handed a personal flying carpet so you could kind of sail through life from here on in?
[23/07/2016, 16:16:41] Jilda: yes, I had some expectations but not as grand as that.
[23/07/2016, 16:17:00] Mark: aha... hehe at the beginning I seem to remember you thought you had no expectations!
[23/07/2016, 16:17:52] Jilda: well they popped out during the process.
[23/07/2016, 16:17:55] Mark: cool

[23/07/2016, 16:18:17] Mark: so now.. have a really really good look, and tell me whether you can find ANY separate me anywhere? e.g. lurking
[23/07/2016, 16:19:07] Jilda: no just that sense of being.
[23/07/2016, 16:19:33] Mark: cool, that's a good way of putting it. 'Awareness' could tend to kind of imply that there is a 'someone in there who is aware'
[23/07/2016, 16:19:47] Mark: So now...
[23/07/2016, 16:20:02] Mark: wiggle your toes... have a good look.. is that 'me'?
[23/07/2016, 16:20:32] Mark: (try not to break anything)
[23/07/2016, 16:20:45] Jilda: just the body and thoughts.
[23/07/2016, 16:21:06] Mark: but it is 'my' body? are they 'my' thoughts?
[23/07/2016, 16:23:31] Jilda: at first I said that to myself (using personal pronouns for conversation) but then I realized that it was just the body and thoughts without a "me".
[23/07/2016, 16:24:19] Mark: ok now think of a favourite food or drink.... is that 'mine' i.e. does that reveal a real me?
[23/07/2016, 16:25:01] Jilda: no the it's no mine in that.
[23/07/2016, 16:25:27] Mark: now pick up a hand and in front of your eyes wiggle fingers around... (tell me when you've done it)
[23/07/2016, 16:26:18] Jilda: wiggled hand in front of eyes
[23/07/2016, 16:27:05] Mark: ok.. amazing.. how did you decide which fingers to wiggle, which sequence to wiggle them in, and which direction to wiggle them?
[23/07/2016, 16:27:54] Jilda: I don't know if just happened after the thought.
[23/07/2016, 16:28:19] Mark: after what thought? look closely, did it happen after a thought, or did a thought comment on it after it was already happening?
[23/07/2016, 16:29:54] Jilda: well I read what you wrote, did it, so maybe the thought came afterwards?
[23/07/2016, 16:31:06] Mark: you might like to look at thoughts as they pop up during the day.. and notice whether they actually make any decisions. They may say 'ok we now need to make a decision', but isn't that thought actually a comment? Then whether the 'decision' just happens and then thoughts claim responsibility for it
[23/07/2016, 16:32:58] Jilda: yes, I've noticed that before. action then thought.
[23/07/2016, 16:33:15] Mark: ok it's a fun ongoing challenge to consider... so now

[23/07/2016, 16:33:28] Mark: as you consider this next question, please notice any sensations which arise
[23/07/2016, 16:33:31] Mark: and let me know
[23/07/2016, 16:34:32] Mark: What comes up when you consider the possibility that Life is going on without any real Jill 'at the helm', and always has been doing..? That it's all kind of just happening... self governing....
[23/07/2016, 16:34:45] Jilda: so this normal, having to monitor your thoughts sometimes or when a "me" pops up?
[23/07/2016, 16:35:09] Mark: (just a life of looking and questioning... this is how I live, for example)
[23/07/2016, 16:37:10] Jilda: well I felt that way for a while even before this inquiry, we really don't have any control over life, it just happens.

[23/07/2016, 16:38:11] Mark: cool,... Jill, we can continue to look together at residual issues (these are perfectly normal!) if you like, but it seems fairly clear from where I am sitting that no self can be found, so what I propose to do is to put our summary questions in the LU thread for you to answer.
[23/07/2016, 16:38:38] Mark: How does that feel?
[23/07/2016, 16:39:46] Jilda: ok, sounds good, thanks again for doing this. can we continue on the thread, though?
[23/07/2016, 16:40:02] Mark: we can continue on the thread, yes. I'll put the questions there
[23/07/2016, 16:40:36] Mark: Then once you've answered, a couple of other guides take a look and see whether they have any other questions. Then when there are no more queries, we add you to the post-gate group
[23/07/2016, 16:40:49] Mark: groupS
[23/07/2016, 16:41:17] Mark: And then we can dialogue whenever you like after that... it took me about a year for things to settle down, but it's different with everyone
[23/07/2016, 16:42:21] Jilda: thanks for letting me know that it's ongoing process and that you'll be there if I need it.
[23/07/2016, 16:42:51] Mark: ok... so shall we finish there for now... then look out for my posts in LU.. one copying this dialogue, and another with the summary questions
[23/07/2016, 16:43:41] Jilda: ok, thank you, bye!
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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ElPortal
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Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:58 pm

Hi Jill

Here are our summing-up questions. Please take your time with them and just answer them spontaneously, honestly and as fully as you can, from your present experience (i.e. practice rather than theory):-

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail, as best you can, in your own words, even if fumblingly, what the illusion of separate self is, how it starts and works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you'!) What are you responsible for? (Don't forget to answer this last element).

6) Anything you would like to add?

I look forward to hearing from you when you are ready.

Cheers

Mark.
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Jilda
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Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby Jilda » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:55 am

Hi Mark,

Just letting you know I'm still working on your questions. Am almost done. Will try to have them finished by tomorrow.

Jill

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ElPortal
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Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:41 am

That's fine, Jill: take your time. Don't worry about writing the 'correct answer', just spontaneously and authentically.

Cheers

M
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Jilda
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Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby Jilda » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:40 pm

Hi Mark,

Here are the answers to your questions:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No separate self at all. Never has been, just a case mistaken identity.
2) Explain in detail, as best you can, in your own words, even if fumblingly, what the illusion of separate self is, how it starts and works from your own experience.Describe it fully as you see it now.

Not sure when it started in this life but it was a set of beliefs, assumptions and memories that projected an identity of a “Jill”. It was a felt sense of “me”. I (using personal pronouns for conversation) was confusing a sense of being/aliveness for a “me”.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It was a very gradual seeing, no big bang. Nothing has really changed but life is different in a subtle way that’s hard to describe. Life is just doing it’s thing.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Two things: 1) separating life happenings by experience/sensations and by thoughts/concepts. 2) realizing that the sense of aliveness/awareness was not a self. It’s the aliveness in everything living thing.
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly.Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you'!) What are you responsible for? (Don't forget to answer this last element).
Who’s there control anything in life.
But this is where I (no I, just for conversation) think I’m stuck. Getting in the morning, making coffee, going to the bathroom – no controller. It’s making decisions: no I to be found so whose making the decisions, mind? There was a choice going to work out staying home today due to my knee. That’s what started this questioning.
6) Anything you would like to add?
Everything is clear except for decision making.
Thanks,
Jill

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ElPortal
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Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:23 am

HI Jill

So please explain: what is it that seems unclear about the decision-making?
What is there there to be responsible for anything?
Where does a separate autonomous self intervene into the flow of life (which is like that mountain stream we discussed earlier), and makes independent decisions? Try to describe.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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ElPortal
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Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:26 am

Let's go back to the exercise of picking up one hand and wiggling the fingers (which we did on Skype). Do it and then consider:
How did you choose which hand?
How did you choose which order to wiggle the fingers in?
How did you choose which direction to wiggle each finger in?
Was there a mind deciding all that? Was there an individual deciding or controlling all that?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Jilda
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Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby Jilda » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:41 pm

Hi Mark,

Sorry about the late response. Doing some good looking at what the problem with decision making. Noticed there was no difficulty with spontaneous decisions eg. Which hand to move, what clothes to wear, etc.

It was the non-spontaneous decisions where thinking was involved was the problem. It felt like a something/someone was making a decision. But on looking, the decision is made by thoughts and thoughts don’t have a controller so nobody is making the decision.

This has cleared up the confusion.

Thanks,
Jill

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ElPortal
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Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:29 pm

HI Jill

So, just to be clear:-
a) have 'you' ever truly intervened autonomously into the flow of life?
b) Is there anything that 'you' are truly responsible for?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Jilda
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Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby Jilda » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:37 pm

Hi Mark,

No and nothing. All clear.

Jill

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

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ElPortal
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Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:42 pm

Ok, Jill

Bear with me now. I'll see whether any other guides have questions. May take a while.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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ElPortal
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Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:50 pm

Hi Jill

Look out for a private message from me, and please let me know if you haven't received one in a couple of hours.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.


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