I would love a guide to help me!

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Jilda
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:12 am

I would love a guide to help me!

Postby Jilda » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:31 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I recently found your website on FB through a non-dual group from per who had success in realizing he does have self.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?: No expectations except a honest and guided inquiry into whether I exist or not.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I have been on the non-dual path (reading books, blogs and watching video) for the last year.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 10

User avatar
ElPortal
Posts: 1148
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:09 pm
Location: France

Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:17 am

HI there and welcome to LU.

Thanks for the information given to the initial questions.

What we will look into here is not about changing to any better state or experience. It is simply looking into what has only ever always been the case, whether there has ever been any real separate individual here/there. Are you ok with that? If so, I may be able to guide you.

Maybe you'd like to tell me a little about what you have discovered so far (if anything ;-) ). Also could you confirm what you would like me to call you?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

User avatar
Jilda
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:12 am

Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby Jilda » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:32 pm

Hi Mark,

Thank you for your reply. In answer to question, yes I would prefer that. I would like to be guided in seeing that is no separate self. Through my readings, especially Gateless Gatecrashers, I get it conceptually but not experientially.

So far I have been following some the threads on LU and tried some of the exercises/ways of looking but without success.

You can call me Jill or Jilda, I answer to both :-)

User avatar
ElPortal
Posts: 1148
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:09 pm
Location: France

Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:40 pm

Hi Jill

Thanks for that response: perfect!

So now is time to stop reading all other dialogues and just focus on this, your first-hand investigation.

In fact, before we go further let's just clear up some basic housework around having a dialogue here:-

A few quick guidelines: look to post regularly (at least every other day) or post to let me know if a break is needed. Please set aside any other teachings (including reading, listening to talks etc) and spiritual practices during our inquiry together (other than a daily meditation or yoga). Please give all your attention to this investigation. I am not here to teach or coach you, I will ask questions: your agreement is to LOOK, and to answer from firsthand direct experience in this moment, rather than from intellectually trying to work anything out. OK?

So, first question: you said before that you have no expectations. But what should 'THIS' seeing feel like, different from what is felt now?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

User avatar
ElPortal
Posts: 1148
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:09 pm
Location: France

Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:42 pm

ps it could be helpful to know which time zone you are in. I am in France (GMT+2)

Cheers

M
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

User avatar
Jilda
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:12 am

Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby Jilda » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:08 pm


So, first question: you said before that you have no expectations. But what should 'THIS' seeing feel like, different from what is felt now?
I don't have an answer for that, as I don't know how it would feel. I'm not sure if it would feel any different.

I am in the Pacific time zone: - 7 GMT with correction for DST

User avatar
ElPortal
Posts: 1148
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:09 pm
Location: France

Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:22 pm

Hi Jill

That's fine. Good answer.

First we are going to look at the difference between two types of experience: 1. firsthand sensed experience (ie via the senses), eg smells, sights, sounds etc which is all that can truly be known, right? and 2. thoughts (technically, this is the contents of thoughts rather than the function of thinking itself), which includes all speculations, hypothesis, beliefs, memories, assumptions, concepts, ideas, explanations, descriptions and even labels (like words... but we will have to allow some labels and words here, in order to communicate), all things which are being not directly experienced except as a thought.

So I would like you to sit for a couple of minutes, and just notice all that happens, all that is experienced. Sensations, feelings and thoughts.
Make a list of it all, as it is experienced.
Then after each item on the list add either (E) (for a sensation, from category 1 above) or (T) for a thought category 2 above).

So an example might be:-

The thought: what will I eat for dinner tonight (T)
Tummy rumbling sensation (E)

Then let me have your list. With this, and all experiments that I invite you to do, and all looking, take your time, noticing carefully all sensations that come up for you as you consider the exercise. As well as answering the exercise, please report back on any sensations felt.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

User avatar
Jilda
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:12 am

Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby Jilda » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:09 am

Hi Mark,

Here's my list:

Sitting on a chair in the dining room. (e)
Feeling very full. (e)
Looking at the yellow walls. (e)
Have to change the color of the walls and redecorate. (t)
Why is my partner in such a bad mood. (e)
He is telling me he had a bad day at work. (e)
I hear the TV in the background. (e)

As I was thinking/experiencing all of the above, I was saying in my mind, this is a experience or this is a thought, anticipating that I would have to write all this down later.

Jill

User avatar
ElPortal
Posts: 1148
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:09 pm
Location: France

Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:32 am

HI Jill

Great, thanks for that.

Ok, so, considering your list:-
Sitting on a chair in the dining room. (e)
Feeling very full. (e)
Looking at the yellow walls. (e)
Have to change the color of the walls and redecorate. (t)
Why is my partner in such a bad mood. (e)
He is telling me he had a bad day at work. (e)
I hear the TV in the background. (e)
... call that into the present moment, so that we can look at it.
He is telling me he had a bad day at work. (e)
Is that truly a firsthand experience (E) or is it a thought (T) (ie a report about something)? What are the actual felt sensations when this question presents itself?

Do you notice any difference between the (E)s and the (T)s in the list? If so, can you describe the differences?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

User avatar
Jilda
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:12 am

Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby Jilda » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:29 am

Is that truly a firsthand experience (E) or is it a thought (T) (ie a report about something)? What are the actual felt sensations when this question presents itself?
I see your point that that it is his thought about something but I am listening/hearing which is a sense.
Do you notice any difference between the (E)s and the (T)s in the list? If so, can you describe the differences?
The e's are direct and present experience while the t's are just thoughts and ideas.

Jill

User avatar
ElPortal
Posts: 1148
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:09 pm
Location: France

Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:09 am

Hi Jill

.. and how about "Jill" now, how about "me". What is the felt experience (E) of that? Or is that too a thought/assumption/concept (T). Have a close look and then tell me whether any sensation (E) be found which actually IS 'ME' (rather then just interpreted to = 'me').

Don't rush these experiments: take time with them to look, not with the intellect but DIRECTLY ie with the senses (E). Also don't forget to report on whatever sensations come up as you read my posts, and as you respond to them.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

User avatar
Jilda
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:12 am

Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby Jilda » Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:37 am

Hi Mark,

I have been contemplating/meditating on your last post all day. Here are my musings.

There is a me that are memories, personality traits and a name which are concepts, ideas and thoughts.

There is sense of me behind my eyes - is this too, just a thought? I can't tell, the sense is so strong!

Getting very confused that this sense of is just a thought. Waffling back and forth between sense of me and the thought of a me.

What is this sense of me? It feels like a presence in my head.

User avatar
ElPortal
Posts: 1148
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:09 pm
Location: France

Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:07 am

HI Jill

Thanks for that honest response.
Getting very confused that this sense of is just a thought. Waffling back and forth between sense of me and the thought of a me.
Could you stay with that for a while. What is this 'confusion'? Are there some sensations (E) which come up when you consider that? Let me know.
What is this sense of me? It feels like a presence in my head.
So what is the actual experience of that (E)? Is there one, or is it just a thought/assumption/interpretation of what's going on?

Let's see if we can find any real me!

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

User avatar
Jilda
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:12 am

Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby Jilda » Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:05 am

Hi Mark,

Driving listening to some good music, it was clear as day, there is no me, it was just a thought. "I" was the road, the trees, the sky and everything!

At home, an allergy attack brought back the "sense of me" back into body. It is like a concentration in the body, a heaviness or contraction.

Confusion, the experience, is like jello, unsteadiness and cloudiness. I realize these are concepts for sensation.

I hope I've answered your questions and thank you for guiding me.

Jill

User avatar
ElPortal
Posts: 1148
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:09 pm
Location: France

Re: I would love a guide to help me!

Postby ElPortal » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:44 am

HI Jill

Thanks for that response...

So, from what you write, it looks as though there is at least SOME seeing through any 'real independent self'. Yes?

But that some things which happen cause some bodily reaction, which is then taken to be 'me'?
At home, an allergy attack brought back the "sense of me" back into body. It is like a concentration in the body, a heaviness or contraction.
In this what you call 'sense of me' what are the sensations (E)? Please describe them in detail. Are they really 'me', or are they accompanied by assumptions (T) that 'this must be me then' (or something similar to that)?

So is this 'apparent 'me' in actual experience (E) or is it only in thought (T)?

Let's see if we can actually find this 'me' anywhere in experience. Here's a little exercise to do. Do it slowly and paying attention carefully to all that seems to be going on. Stand up from your chair, walk five paces across the room. Then turn, take five paces back, and slowly sit down again. Notice all the sensations involved. Can you actually find a 'me-controller' in charge of any of that? Or did it just happen? Are any of the sensations 'me' or does 'me' have to be assumed/thought up?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest