Through the Gate

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Fonzy2
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Through the Gate

Postby Fonzy2 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:26 pm

Hello, My name is Fons, and i was active on the international area of this forum about 1.5 years ago. I had a conversation with Roland about my experiances and worry's regarding "the self" and "enlightement".
its now some time later and the past year i stopped struggling with thoughts, and clearly saw the paradox of "me wanting to hold on to my insights".
Few weeks ago i remembered the Gate, and thought that i could start guiding people as well. i think the Gate is a powerfull concept to see through the illusion because of the direct one on one contact that is often needed to see where someone really is holding on to without knowing it.
I will now answer the questions as written in the home forum.

How did you wake up?

When i was on the forum some time ago i was already searching for a long time for enlightement, or enlightening experiances. I started as a youngfster with drugs, later yoga/meditation, than i discovered Eckhart Tolle, and finally i got a book from Robbert Adams. this was almost 2 years ago, and this was for me the start of an intense year full of reading, watching video's, and questioning myself. I bought a lot of books on the subject, and also discovered the Gate. Step by step i saw the truth of the words that all these people had written and spoken.
And with each insight i could not believe that i never saw this before.
I had a lot of questions in the beginning, but later i saw that all my questions had (how i like to call it) "the same weight", because all this questions are arising and disappearing in the same boundless space as a precondition for them to happen in. This means that also the thought of "i" is happening there, and so it is not more or less important than the thought of cooking an egg or getting married. All thoughts and feelings including the doubt are seen in this boundless space and when there is nobody left to see them (cause the I is also apearing in this field) there is no holding on to or pushing away anymore of all these needs and fears, because they are all seen as part of of one vibrant energy or happening where things appear and dissapear in there own tempo (if you would name them at all).
This insight that i tried to catch in words here, was a turning point. From there on i could eventually see everything for what is was, even the so called I.
In short i could say that the thoughts of frustration about an seemingly present I in my head where seen as made of the same material as the thougts that the i itself was made of. Weightless, temporary images and energy's that where depended on each other for there existance.


What changed?

The perspective of seeing. Firs i was a player in the field trying to find his place, trying find a balance between in all. Now i see that i am the field, and that my own thoughts and body are no different than the desk i am sitting at or the people i meet.
The forms are different, but that is only when you think about it, otherwise there is just seeing.


What is the Self?

The self is the undivided seeing. It is the precondition for everything else to happen.

I think there is not much more to say. Questions are welcome if things are unclear.


Fons.

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kvotski
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Re: Through the Gate

Postby kvotski » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:25 am

Hello Fons,

Are you still interested in pursuing confirmation to join Lu?

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Fonzy2
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Re: Through the Gate

Postby Fonzy2 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:31 pm

Hello kvotski,

Yes i am.

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kvotski
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Re: Through the Gate

Postby kvotski » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:28 pm

Great. Our process involves a set of six questions which you may have seen somewhere. The answers are reviewed by at telecast three guides who terming whether you have truly seen the illusion of self. Here are the questions, please answer based on your direct experience no theories or philosophies.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add?

Please respond in a few days.

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kvotski
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Re: Through the Gate

Postby kvotski » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:29 pm

Sorry the spellcheck really jumbled my words.

Reviewed by at least three guides, who determine if you have seen.....

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Fonzy3
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Re: Through the Gate

Postby Fonzy3 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:41 pm

Test if i can answer with my new login name. my old email is blocked, so testing if i can post with this username.

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kvotski
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Re: Through the Gate

Postby kvotski » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:05 pm

I got it. Did you?

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Fonzy3
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Re: Through the Gate

Postby Fonzy3 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:11 pm

Great. Our process involves a set of six questions which you may have seen somewhere. The answers are reviewed by at telecast three guides who terming whether you have truly seen the illusion of self. Here are the questions, please answer based on your direct experience no theories or philosophies.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is not, there is only memory in the form of a self image that is seen as everything else is seen. A thought like this is the same as watching a sunset, hearing music, or thinking of bacon. Everything is experienced as one inseparable happening.
All is happening around me, including me.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is separating one part of reality from the rest, and call it me. By this you create a subject and object inside your head. From there on everything is seen as objects in relation to "yourself".
This self becomes the center of the universe that develops strong preferences and fears in the world outside there. It feels like evey happening has a separate meaning, and nothing can be seen without dividing it into good or bad in relation to the self. There is a need to atract all things good, and push away all bad things. Its like a state of constant war.
This is all theoreticly speaking, but now it is just a memory floating by. It's not good or bad, but a vague memory. I think it works as describes above because i remember the pain that came with it, but i am not this subject anymore, i can not imagine this selfimage from the past to be me anymore, it's just there beeing what it is, a visual in a flow of all other things. Its inseparable. it's just all happening, and there is no need to introduce someone who it is happening to, since it is all made of the same fabric.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It is nothing special, it has no value anymore. Nothing has any value cause nothing is valued. it is just it. When i try to remember how it was before i saw things the way i do, i see an image of a boy identified with his selfimage, not understanding that there is nothing to understand for this selfimage, but that seeing the selfimage is the understanding. Not being it, and seeing and understanding things "out there".

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I dont remember exactly, insights are happening daily when old thoughts come up that are seen in this new light.
I think what i valued as a major insight some time ago was the fact that everything can be seen, nothing excluded. So when i was thinking: "why do i not see that the I is not real?", that i suddenly could look at this thought as any other thougt.
This felt big when there where moments of seeing this, and a thought like that dissolved as it was never there. This gave this extatic feelings in my head and body. I think this pushed me over. I think the last thing i was struggling with was the thougt of wanting to hold on to the extatic insights, but later this was also seen as a thought as any other, with no extra meaning or importance to it.
In the "end" i realized there was nothing to understand or see, but there was just seeing.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.

Now days i feel like i dont make any choice, everything is happening like it is. I have to make choices, but they also happen. There is so to say nobody who makes them. There is only the seeing that there is an action taken, or that there is waiting. But waiting is not even waiting anymore. There is just my body when i look at it doing what it does, or a thought reflecting my actions doing what it does. I feel that this all just happens without any interference from "me".

6) Anything to add?

Please respond in a few days.

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kvotski
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Re: Through the Gate

Postby kvotski » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:38 pm

Thanks Fons.

I would like to explore the following a little more.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is not, there is only memory in the form of a self image that is seen as everything else is seen. A thought like this is the same as watching a sunset, hearing music, or thinking of bacon. Everything is experienced as one inseparable happening.
All is happening around me, including me.
Do you see a difference between different types of thoughts like that of a bacon and that of a self? Are these the same? Do you find thoughts real? Is there a thinker of these thoughts?

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Fonzy3
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Re: Through the Gate

Postby Fonzy3 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:40 pm

Do you see a difference between different types of thoughts like that of a bacon and that of a self? Are these the same?

When i think of bacon i see bacon, when i think of a self, i see a self image. In this sense they are not the same.

Do you find thoughts real? Is there a thinker of these thoughts?

Everything is seen in the field of awareness as one, including thoughts about real or unreal, or thoughts about a thinker.

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kvotski
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Re: Through the Gate

Postby kvotski » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:27 pm

But bacon can be retrieved from the fridge, a direct experience. What is and where do you find this self image? In other words, is the self or it's image an illusion to you like an unicorn or is it real like the bacon?

You imply that you can see the thinker in the field of awareness. Can you describe him to me?

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Fonzy3
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Re: Through the Gate

Postby Fonzy3 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:08 pm

But bacon can be retrieved from the fridge, a direct experience.

For me there is no such thing as direct experience, because this would imply the possibility of indirect experience, and that is not possible. There is only experience.

What is and where do you find this self image?

There is no I that finds anything. I refer to an image, that can be seen in the mind, like you can see a flower in nature.
For me there is no difference between the two, because there is no division between thinking, feeling, seeing, hearing etc, this division takes place in language.

In other words, is the self or it's image an illusion to you like an unicorn or is it real like the bacon?

The self is the precondition for self images to happen, so believing in an image to be the self would imply 2 selfes.
So images about the self can happen, but it is off course an image.

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Fonzy3
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Re: Through the Gate

Postby Fonzy3 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:23 pm

Do you find thoughts real? Is there a thinker of these thoughts?
Everything is seen in the field of awareness as one, including thoughts about real or unreal, or thoughts about a thinker.
You imply that you can see the thinker in the field of awareness. Can you describe him to me?
I didn't implyed that. I you read carefully my answer in thick black you can see that i said there is no real and unreal, but only experience, and if one would have thoughts about a thinker or thoughts about the realness or unrealness of an experience, this all would happen in the same field of awareness. it's all seen without any feedback to a self. The self is the precondition for these things to happen, not the other way around.

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Fonzy3
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Re: Through the Gate

Postby Fonzy3 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:26 pm

Offcourse without a earth there would be no human body, and probably no self. but who knows. thats speculation :).

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kvotski
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Re: Through the Gate

Postby kvotski » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:35 pm

]Offcourse without a earth there would be no human body, and probably no self. but who knows. thats speculation
This again suggests that you believe that as long as there is an earth and a body, there is a self. Your previous answer to q1 was no, there is no self but an image of self. For an image to exist there must be a self. Please explain to me if I understand you correctly. What is this original self whose image you perceive e in the mind?


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