Thread for Mark

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perrym
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby perrym » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:41 pm

Hi Mark,

Nice to have you back again ;-)
I seem to be getting somewhere with recognising thoughts as just thoughts.
hey, glad to hear it!
thoughts as just being an element of experience - happily ticking away like the body just ticks away - without me doing anything about it.
i like the analogy with the body

so, as for 'identification'...
What I noticed is that sometimes thought or awareness is more intense and focused and that this gave more of a sense of identification with thinking. Something like “oh this is going somewhere, (e.g. with the process of looking), therefore there must be someone behind this, some agency.” It actually wasn’t as clear cut as that, more with the mind cranking up and getting focused, it seemed like the sense of self was stronger.
this is a really good area to look - how this 'sense of self' is bound up with a particular flavour of thought.

Beware of the term 'identification' to describe this flavour of thought, though - the word carries baggage.... if there is "identification" then the implication is that "this" is identified with "that" ... in other words, "the self (I)" is identified with "this thought" ... so by thinking in TERMS of 'identification' you cannot help ASSUMING a 'self' separate from the thoughts

... but back to your observations... so there some thoughts which just tick on like bodily functions, yet others which feel, you might say, 'owned', 'believed', 'driven', or in which awareness is 'embedded', and which are associated with a stronger sense of self? some thoughts, in other words, that are obviously "not I", yet others that seem to be (or to be thought by) "I"?

I really like 'cranking up' and 'getting focused' as descriptions of second kind of thought by the way - these terms come from direct experience and don't invite the assumption of a self separate from the thought. The more you can pick out the actual characteristics of this particular 'flavour' of thought in direct experience, the better.

It can be interesting to explore these 'focused' ('identified-with') thoughts by seeing to what extent it is possible to take control of the thinking process... for example, say to yourself "I am now going to have a thought, and that thought is: " .... and wait .... do you know in advance what the thought will be?

... or, noticing a 'focused'/'identified' thought, is it possible to continue it deliberately?

This may help reveal whether there is any qualitative difference between thoughts ticking away when you are calm, and those that seem more 'real'/'charged'/'identified'.

Particularly, can you notice anything about the second kind of thought that is actually evidence of an "I" being involved? Is there anything in the quality of the thought itself that indicates the presence of "I", or is "I thought that" just another thought after the event?
A question I have is; does seeing through the sense of self mean that identification with thought stops happening?
Some caveats:
  • there is nothing completely cut-and-dried about any aspect of the process or its fruits
  • everyone is different
  • old habits typically remain little changed in the short run, they have inertia that wears down only over time
  • it is generally best not to worry too much about the fruits of the process, expectations get in the way
With these caveats, I'd say that typically, 'identification' happens less intensely, less often, and it is quickly 'seen through' (it does not get compounded and compounded, but a bit of identification is quickly noticed and easily dropped). Also, in the long run, it drops away more and more (the remaining process of dropping away could be expressed in terms of the breaking of the remaining 7 fetters).

best wishes,

Perry

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Mark Hewitson
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby Mark Hewitson » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:50 pm

Hi Perry,

I had, in my kitchen yesterday, a small epiphany, something like ‘these are not my thoughts’ like these REALLY aren’t mine, I don’t own them. There are a lot of ‘I’ references in that sentence, I know, but anyway.
I fell into a crisis yesterday. I am very tired at the moment, from work and ongoing lack of sleep. A friend of mine went through the ‘gate’ recently and it tipped me into comparison and feeling like I was never going to get this. Which is strange because I have really felt like I was getting this, from various experiences over the last 2/3 weeks.
I’m not very good at writing everything up and started to doubt that I was even going about this the right way (despite your unfailing support and encouragement I might add).
This crisis brought with it some of my worst ‘patterns’. I even got into self-pity, something which I used to have a problem with but that very rarely shows its head these days. Anger at myself, despondancy etc. etc. - no need to go on, I feel. Again, I couldn’t sleep and the mind was deepening into this stuff. Then at some point I got fed up and just said “this is all just thoughts and feelings happening no need to identify” and soon after that I was asleep.

Going back to an earlier question:
are there special thoughts that are really created by "I", or are ALL thoughts just ..... thoughts?!
Explored this:
Asked myself “are the thoughts around ‘looking’, special thoughts, ‘I’ thoughts?”
I could see no special thought of ‘I’ that wasn’t just a thought. In essence, thoughts that seem to have more ‘I’, or identification in them, have the same quality of just being thoughts. Some are accompanied by more feelings and sensations in the body but the thought part of the experience has this same ‘ticking’ quality as unidentified thought.
The ‘crisis’ thoughts were of this cranked up kind ‘second kind’. So I don’t know. ‘I’ seemed more in them until something just got fed up and let them go. Been feeling better since then, by the way.

It can be interesting to explore these 'focused' ('identified-with') thoughts by seeing to what extent it is possible to take control of the thinking process... for example, say to yourself "I am now going to have a thought, and that thought is: " .... and wait .... do you know in advance what the thought will be?
Definitely don’t know what my next thought is going to be. I’ve tried this many times before. IT CANNOT BE DONE! But here is an example:

So next day now. Stream of consciousness.
“Not sure, muddled. Look at my mind - where is the self? Did I just write this? I don’t know what I’m going to write next. Write down now what you’re going to write next. But I can’t say in advance. What I’m going to write next is just, ‘what I’m going to write next’, but I can’t tell you what its going to be. Stop. What am I going to write next? I’ve no idea. But what I wrote is “but what I wrote is”.

The self identified in thoughts. But where? Where is the identification with thought, where is it! I cannot find “the identification with thought”. All I can find is thought. This thought, the one now, the one I’ve just thought, the one I’ve just written. Where is the identification part of the thought? Bodily sensations; constriction in the heart; head slightly ‘hot’ about this; tears in the eyes; movement of the pen; instruction to move the pen presumably coming from somewhere. Where is the instruction to move the pen coming from? Slowing of the intensity of thoughts about this; weariness in the body; desire to sleep; feeling of tiredness, leading to thoughts about this. Say to myself ‘there is no self” – that’s fine by me - but who is the me that its fine by – its just what – fine by me – a thought ‘fine by me’; a sense of relief in the body, letting go. Turning to the questions. Is there any thought that is special, that is ‘I’? No. There is no thought that is special – there are just thoughts. Thoughts, thoughts, thoughts, thoughts, thoughts. Thoughts here, thoughts there. Here a thought, there a thought, everywhere a thought – like Old MacDonalds frarm. Its bananas! Why on earth give so much importance to thoughts – and they are so ephemeral, barely alive and they’re gone. Much laughter here, some sadness.”

Going to type this up now, running out of time.

PS.

Thanks for answering my question:
A question I have is; does seeing through the sense of self mean that identification with thought stops happening?
The answer you gave was pretty much what I thought, but glad to know this.

Much love, Mark

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Mark Hewitson
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby Mark Hewitson » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:01 pm

Hi Perry,

Not doing so well here. I feel overwhelmed by a terrible feeling of failure, that I am never going to get this. Feeling bad about even reporting this. I look but I feel I don’t see. The penny doesn’t drop. Sorry, struggling at the moment.

Mark

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Mark Hewitson
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby Mark Hewitson » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:18 pm

Hi Perry,

Wondering where we are with all this.
I’m feeling like I’m not sure if I’ve seen this or not.
I see that there is nothing but the six senses and awareness in them or not even in them, there is just the six sense, I can’t see any additional awareness as a separate thing from the six sense. I don’t control my experience, though it seems like I do.
I have this feeling like something has changed. It started back in April when I went to Ilona’s event, that I described to you. I find myself being less and less concerned about myself as an individual not worried about self-image and protecting myself. I’m much happier to let things go. I read and think about non-self and it makes sense and I seem to be fine and happy about it. But I wonder if I’m still holding on somewhere, though a voice says straight away “there is no you to hold on”, still I’m not sure. Perhaps its like, when I look I see it but it isn’t right at the front of my mind all the time. I don’t want to fake this, I want to be sure. Many realisation events have happened and I’m not sure I can describe them maybe they happen and then what or I don’t quite remember them in the present moment?
Anyway, a bit confused about the process. Seem to have the recurring feeling/thinking that I’m never going to get this but then I realise something like ‘there’s no one to get it and nothing to get’ and then I laugh or cry and am fine.
The other concerned I have is that I’m trying to get this with my head. The 'ah ha' type realisations don’t seem to happen in the head, I can’t say where they happen, its just kind of 'ah ha'.

Mark

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perrym
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby perrym » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:55 pm

Hi Mark,

First, huge apologies for my disappearance - as I just wrote to another 'guidee':
I run my own business, and sometimes (thankfully, very rarely nowadays) I have to rise the challenge of a near-impossible deadline. This time it was really freaky - out of the blue, TWO clients EACH dumped an impossible deadline onto me for the SAME week! So for the last week I have been arriving at work at 8am, and leaving somewhere between midnight and 1am, just popping home for an hour or two for dinner. Now it is (virtually) over, I am emerging, blinking, into the light, and noticing some of the really important things I've pushed aside for a week ... like LU!
I'm a bit too tired to do justice to your last posts right now, but you do seem to be right on track, whatever doubt and despondency might be emerging .... having got to this point:
I see that there is nothing but the six senses and awareness in them or not even in them, there is just the six sense, I can’t see any additional awareness as a separate thing from the six sense. I don’t control my experience, though it seems like I do.
then it is really just a question of continuing to investigate, particularly when you notice a clear sense of 'me' and 'mine', and of course (cough, cough) staying in dialogue - a little bit of input from this side helps keep the process alive.

You obviously have 'seen' to some extent - if this were just theoretical, it would not be affecting the rest of your life. But my impression is that there are still a few assumptions and habits that have not quite been touched yet, and so some more 'looking' will bear more fruit.

A few pointers that may be helpful:
So ... which thoughts are believed, and which are merely thoughts?
Is a feeling of failure just a feeling, or does something makes it special, give it a story, make it 'real'?
The word 'identification' implies 'I' latched onto 'other' ... can this be found in experience? If not, what would be a good word to replace 'identification', what word best captures the direct experience that you've labelled 'identification'?

I really must get to bed now!

very best wishes, and more apologies for abandoning you for a week!

Perry

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Mark Hewitson
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby Mark Hewitson » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:47 pm

Hi Perry,

Glad to know you are alright, and it was just work keeping you away. Was worried you’d had an accident or something.

So:
So ... which thoughts are believed, and which are merely thoughts?
So looking at this over the last few days it seems that thoughts that are believed are those with strong emotion. Behind this stronger emotion is fear. It always seems to be reducible to some kind of fear. Fear of not being able to get/do/have fear of loss/pain fear of being taken advantage of etc. Strong emotional charge = more identification, it seems.
Is a feeling of failure just a feeling, or does something makes it special, give it a story, make it 'real'?
Interesting question. Looking at this I saw/felt that it went right back to childhood. I had been having/telling/believing this story (at times) since then. How can I fail, all I can actually do is stop trying which, I suppose, is failing. Anyway all stuff. Again fear accompanies it. Not sure I’ve answered this very satisfactorily.
The word 'identification' implies 'I' latched onto 'other' ... can this be found in experience? If not, what would be a good word to replace 'identification', what word best captures the direct experience that you've labelled 'identification'?
I can’t find this latching on, at least not the act of this. There are thoughts/feelings that are more intense, in which more self seems to be present but not a separate entity from the thoughts and feelings that is doing the latching. This could bear more investigation. I’m going to take some time off work, which has been very intense lately, as I’m getting quite exhausted and finding the looking harder.

I have a sense that the process of all ‘this’, has kind of taken me over. Even become a bit obsessive but I think this maybe because I am very tired. I need to unwind a little.

Something I seem to be struggling with, at the moment, is the idea of control. Am I really not in control? When I look I see no real control e.g. the thing about not knowing what I’m going to think next. Yet there is still this illusion of control, of agency. A voice says “but what about morality? Haven’t I been practicing the precepts all these years, trying to live with kindness and awareness? Have I NOT been doing this?”

I continue to have small epiphanies over ‘this’ even being aware, directly at times, of there being no self, a strange almost empty feeling and yet not empty. There has been a lot of tears laughter and sadness around ‘this’ - I don’t even think I can quite categorize the feelings.

Anyway, enough for now.

Best wishes, Mark

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Mark Hewitson
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby Mark Hewitson » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:42 pm

Hi Perry,

Ah. Oh God. Looking at the idea of whether I choose anything e.g. to behave ethically etc. The very thought of this caused an ‘explosion’ in my head. I physically grabbed my head for 5 minutes rocking it back and forth. Stupid disbelief. I don’t choose anything! Choice just happens. Oh fuck! How could I not see this! Not that ‘I’ could see this, that doesn’t make sense either. Break down in tears. The unbelievable strain of it. Just let go! There is no one to choose! Choosing is happening.

Mark

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perrym
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby perrym » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:53 pm

Hahaha!

Lovely, lovely! Yes! Oh, you have no idea how much joy it brings to read that :-) :-) :-)

There is choosing, but no chooser can be found!

Live with this a while, I look forward to hearing more if/when you feel inclined :-)

Very best wishes,

Perry

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Mark Hewitson
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby Mark Hewitson » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:34 pm

Hi Perry,

Very nice to read the delight in your last posting. Thank you.

So; had a few days, not exactly away from this but just letting things unwind for a bit.

Ok. Stream of consciousness again:

Have I seen this or are there any doubts as to whether self still exists? I still seem to be identifying with things, but much less.
Judging if I’ve made it ‘through’. Yes there is doubt as to whether I’ve made it through the gate. What is this doubt? It’s a sense feeling. Made up of what? Have I faked it? How would I know? Tired, very tired. Of what? Look. What is my next thought going to be? Don’t know but I do know it’s going to be based on something that has come before. What is the self now? There’s just what’s happening now. There is no solid entity, just moving conditions. But what drives the move to be aware of the fact that there are just conditions? Just more conditions. Look at this.

Is it the head that is ‘getting’ this? Can the head ‘get’ this? What is it that ‘gets’ this? If the head ‘got’ this would that lead to a change in the ways of relating to life? Ah, but the head knew about this before and understood it, conceptually, but this is different. This is… I don’t know what, a ‘seeing’ – Santa Claus analogy – what changed with Santa Claus? You knew he was a fiction. It makes sense.

Next day:

What happens when I look at the idea of self (look at the idea?). Thinking about the self. I don’t know what I’m going to write next. What happened is I stopped and went back and read what I’ve just written. I didn’t know I was going to do that. Just as writing this sentence was decided before I wrote it. I am aware of this having been the case i.e that I knew it had happened before I wrote it.
Do I control what I’m writing here? Some how the thought in the previous sentence came up. Don’t know how. On the basis of this ‘I’ it stopped to pause and think about it, as it was a question. On dependence upon the mind asking a question, the mind looked for an answer. The mind then remembered ‘cup of tea’ and stopped writing to pick up the cup of tea - all automatically. It didn’t ask the ‘self’ to do this, or get permission from the ‘self’. It just did it. In dependence upon cup of tea being there and desire to drink cup of tea, tea drinking happened. In dependence upon action of exploring the self these words were written in a book narrating this process. Like a tic-a-tape machine after the computer has worked out the answer, the mind narrated the whole thing. In dependence upon whole tea thing above, and LU looking etc., awareness of processes took place in the mind and the pre-set instruction to write them down. Bam, bam, bam – action; bam, bam, bam, thought; bam, bam, bam, feeling. ALL experience is happening like this. I mean ALL! I do not choose/decide/feel/think/be aware etc. BUT ‘bam, bam, bam’, chooses/decides/feels/thinks/is aware. Of course there is no ‘bam, bam, bam’ that does these things, because ‘bam, bam, bam’ isn’t anything. It’s the process of things affecting other things, but ‘bam, bam, bam’ is not an entity. ‘I’ is nothing, it is ‘bam, bam, bam’, which is NO entity. This is now clear - at least for the moment. BUT seem to be able to see this now whenever I stop and look.

Perhaps there are still some doubts. I’m not sure if I’ve completely relinquished the idea of agency. I will continue to look. I’m not sure I don’t have self, residing in thought still, i.e. ‘I am my thinking’.

I still have the ‘open’ sense occurring and the ‘ah-ha’ experiences when I look which lead to laughter or tears. I still seem to be ‘hooked’ into the process. It seems to do ‘me’.

Thanks so much for all your patience so far. It is bearing fruit, that is for sure.

Much Love,

Mark

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perrym
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby perrym » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:27 pm

Hi Mark,

Nice to hear from you again!
Judging if I’ve made it ‘through’. Yes there is doubt as to whether I’ve made it through the gate.
Of course the question then arises, who would be 'through'? What could this possibly mean? It is significant that it is the gateless gate - passing through involves realising that there never was a gate, nor anyone who could pass through... as you say:
But what drives the move to be aware of the fact that there are just conditions? Just more conditions. Look at this.
... and likewise the urge to judge 'am I through?' and the doubt arising - anything special about these, or just more arising conditions?
The mind [...] didn’t ask the ‘self’ to do this, or get permission from the ‘self’. It just did it.
yes!

and 'the mind' that is doing all this - is this a thing, a direct experience, or a label, an abstraction?
ALL experience is happening like this. I mean ALL!
:-)
This is now clear - at least for the moment. BUT seem to be able to see this now whenever I stop and look.
hey, great! That is really significant. If 'no self' quickly becomes obvious whenever you stop and look, then this part of the job is nearly done.

There is likely to be an interplay between this new, conscious perspective and old, less conscious habits - enjoy this tension, this dialogue ... it can be like playing with a wobbly tooth, oddly compelling :-) The symbol of Manjugosha's sword comes to mind - the ability to 'cut through' habitual binding illusions by seeing that there is no self within or without, just the flux of experience.
I’m not sure if I’ve completely relinquished the idea of agency. I will continue to look. I’m not sure I don’t have self, residing in thought still, i.e. ‘I am my thinking’.
Yes, keep looking, you have the 'tools' at your disposal now, it is just a question of continuing to explore any dark corners ... agency is

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perrym
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby perrym » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:33 pm

whoops, submit somehow 'got clicked' .... it wasn't me! what was I writing about, ah yes ... agency !!!

... agency is often the last thing to become fully clear, so look, question, investigate - for example, what does it mean to say "I am thinking" rather than "thoughts are happening"? What is really going on when it seems that 'you' are 'in control'?

best wishes,

Perry

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Mark Hewitson
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby Mark Hewitson » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:30 pm

Hi Perry,

Sitting down to meditate this morning: seeing there is dullness in the mind then a move to claim this as 'I’. Then seeing that there is nothing to be claimed. What a strange thing to do. Claim things as ‘I’. Laughter, laughter, laughter – ‘the dullness as mine’ there is nothing to claim, NO ONE to claim it. Just conditions of dullness and conditions of the mind. Not even of the mind – the mind is just conditions! More laughter. What a joke! Loud laughter. The ‘mind’ is an idiot (sorry mind). A clever idiot. Sees everything but the obvious. It doesn’t even really exist. Laughter, joyful laughter. A joke. What a huge joke!!

Mark

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Mark Hewitson
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby Mark Hewitson » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:40 pm

Hi Perry,

Thanks for your last post.
... and likewise the urge to judge 'am I through?' and the doubt arising - anything special about these, or just more arising conditions?
I will explore this more especially as I seem to get stuck here - some factor at work. Each time I make 'progress' I seem to get hit with doubt. Looking at it as a just another mental event should help I think.

Mark

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Mark Hewitson
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby Mark Hewitson » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:18 am

Hi,

So. Doubt is still arising. I seem to go through these peak experiences, like yesterday, and then become overcome with doubt and frustration. My stories take hold – won’t bore you too much with the details but maybe for the sake of completeness. Things like:
‘I can’t do this’
‘I’m not integrated enough’
‘My health problems are getting in the way’
‘Other people seem to get through this no problem why can’t I’
comparing myself with others
‘There must be something wrong with me’
defeatism
‘Perry doesn’t like me that much and his patience must be wearing thin’
‘I’ll be stuck here forever in Samsara’
‘I always suspected there was something different and incomplete about me’
shame at having these thoughts
fear that someone is reading this and will see the real me
fear that Perry will give up and count me as one of those who wasn’t ready
Terrible, terrible stories.

A voice says these are just thoughts and feelings, conditioned processes, but I can’t connect to this at the moment. I know it will change and I may be feeling good about all this (the process here) soon but maybe I’ll identify with that good feeling too!
I’m reminded of Daniel Ingram’s ‘thing’ about cycling through the A & P and then having the ‘dark night’ – funny these stories usually come at night.
Don’t know – seemed a little ‘high falutin’ the Daniel Ingram model.
I’m worried I’ll tire of the process and give it up.
I feel like I know where this lies but can’t quite get to it.

The thought has been recurring that perhaps it is more simple than I realise and not about having experience of anything at all.
The thought runs like this: I find myself thinking and I say “ah this is just thnking” and somehow disconnect from thought – not that I stop thinking of course. Thought is just thought, it doesn’t need to be taken seriously. Then the same would be true of feelings etc. Thought, however ‘bad’, is just thought, not real (the content that is). The Buddha said this of course and I know we’ve kind of been over this already. Something finds it a little hard to believe. Perhaps its too simple. ‘I don’t have to believe my stories because they are just stories – thoughts, feelings nothing else. They are just a movie. Perhaps I just need to sit back and watch it. Its not me, its just a movie. BUT Oh! When they come (the bad stories) its not so easy.

I will carry on looking. Please don’t give up on me. Feeling very sad.

Best wishes to you Perry,

Mark

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Mark Hewitson
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Re: Thread for Mark

Postby Mark Hewitson » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:04 pm

Hi Perry,

Back again.
Sorry about the last post - embarrassed about it – but why? – they’re not my mental states, not my embarrassment! So sorry, I can’t be sorry about them - but I’m sorry anyway!

Yes, there is an idea that all this is happening to someone, rather than just happening.
‘I am having these experiences’. I sense that I am owning these ‘bad’ stories, that they are my burden, that I have to do something about them. Back to agency I guess. But how can these be my stories? Did I create them? Am I creating them now? That would imply that I’m in control, wouldn’t it?
I can’t contact the stories now, they are gone, or maybe in the background. Did I stop them being here? Did I make them arise in the first place? If I had a choice, i.e. in control, surely I wouldn’t choose to have these stories going on. I sense I don’t want to let go into the idea that it is all just happening, outside of control – and yet at the same I’m tired of carrying this burden of responsibility for my conditioning. Is it really not MY conditioning? Do I just have to see that it is all just going on with no one in charge and no one to correct it. Is there really nothing to do?

Bless you for being there Perry. I am so grateful. Turbulent time here (and I thought I was a bit of a dull lad – another story).

Mark


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