If you are seeking to end the seeking, come in here.

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Ilona
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If you are seeking to end the seeking, come in here.

Postby Ilona » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:40 pm

I'm here to assist.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Walbart
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Re: If you are seeking to end the seeking, come in here.

Postby Walbart » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:11 pm

Hi Ilona, thanks for accepting. I want my seeking to end. How should we proceed?

W.

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Ilona
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Re: If you are seeking to end the seeking, come in here.

Postby Ilona » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:14 pm

ok, i point, you look and come back with the answers. all that is needed is intention and honesty.

what is behind the label 'me'? what drives the body? what drives the character?
Truth realized will set you free.
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Walbart
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Re: If you are seeking to end the seeking, come in here.

Postby Walbart » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:15 pm

what is behind the label 'me'? what drives the body? what drives the character?
What is behind the label 'me':
Nothing specific. When I think "me" it just looks like an extremely contracted thought. I look at the wall and I feel relaxed. Then I think "me" and everything seems to contract suddenly to "here". "Me" is just "here". It's like an inward arrow of attention. Who's attention? No ones. Just inward thoughts concerning this body. I can say "me" now, like "I" am typing, but it's just the body/brain appointing a label to use as a spokesperson. I hope I'm not talking shit here. Behind "me" is also all the things accumulated that are associated with this body's life. When I think "me", pain, anger and doubt come up too. So behind the label "me" are the unique experiences of this brain and body.


What drives the body:
It seems to be a mechanical process from the moment we're born. The body has it's own needs and desires and it is also conditioned. I can see that I'm not in control. I don't do the breathing or the repairing or the digestion. It's a machine. Nothing drives it but nature and conditioning steer it.


What drives the character:
The character seems closely related to the body, as in, it's a creation or the result of the body's actions through life. My character is what it is because of conditions and experiences. It's there, nothing drives it, it is a response mechanism. You could also say beliefs drive the character, and because mine are still in place I am still within the character. My character is thoughts bouncing off experiences and acting a certain way because of my conditioning. My conditioning has included the belief that I am a separate entity somehow in control of this life and body, so that's still how it is acting. Even when presented with evidence.

Sorry if this is too much or in the wrong direction.

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Ilona
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Postby Ilona » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:05 pm

Great answers, thank you. Of course they are in the right direction.

So what happens inside, when you let this thought in:

There is no such separate entity me at all in real life, as in zero.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Walbart
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Re: If you are seeking to end the seeking, come in here.

Postby Walbart » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:38 pm

So what happens inside, when you let this thought in:

There is no such separate entity me at all in real life, as in zero.

There's no such thing as a separate me... The first thing that happens when I say this is that there's a sense of openness. There's this room, and the objects, and my body, and the eyesight. All very calm... until the thoughts start up that I must examine this thoroughly and come up with the right answer. There's a tiny moment of peace, then all the mess starts up again. In the space it seems like it's not "me v's everything else", but it's very slight.

I've been sitting with this for 30 minutes. There's no me separate and outside of my present reality. This body has a viewpoint, and it's a familiar one. I'm getting stuck in language now, thinking there's no such thing as a separate me, but what if there's a me included in all of this? Not separate, but a part of it all? I'm doing something wrong here, that I ruin the clear-seeing with muddy thoughts, and choose the thoughts over the truth. I'm over-looking something vital, or taking something simple for granted.

I've switched this task from no separate entity, to an entity (me) that is a part of the whole... I'll keep at it, trying to stay with the peace before the explaining starts up again.

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Ilona
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Postby Ilona » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:07 pm

Can you see an absence of something? Let's say there is a pen on your table. Look at it. Now take it and hide it behind your back. Look at the table again. Can you see an absence of pen? All you see is what is there, not what isn't.
Don't try to look for what isn't, instead, turn your face to the truth. To the obvious. What is now here?

It's going great. Looking is on. :)
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: If you are seeking to end the seeking, come in here.

Postby Walbart » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:08 pm

No, I can't see an absence of something, no matter how hard I look ;)

If I look for "me" now, I can't see it. It isn't there. So rather than suppose it must be hidden or elusive....

I can name everything in my experience right now, hands, table, objects, sensations in my body, sounds, thoughts moving into place to form sentences. All this stuff is definitely here. The feeling that I am sitting here, the concept of me being a thing behind my eyes, the belief that I am a separate person, these are all present and correct. And if I check memories of the past for evidence of "me" all I find are events and actions.

So, um, yeah, something is missing.

There's one thing I can't find anywhere. I know this, I've been here before, but I don't want to slip back into being lost. I can't always see through thoughts, I'll be confused again in a moment. How do I make this stick?

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Postby Ilona » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:44 pm

You don't make this stick.
There is no you to do anything.

Consider breathing- is there a breather? There is breathing happening, but what does the breathing?

Yes, me is a concept, you say you can feel the concept? How come?

Look at the sense of me.
Close your eyes and identify the feeling of being, am. Hold it for a moment and see is it personal? Is there a separation from everything else that is?
You may feel it as a tension, kind of resistance, but is that feeling you?
Is there a you at all?
Notice how experience happens and narration follows. Is that narration you? Or is it just happening same way as breathing?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: If you are seeking to end the seeking, come in here.

Postby Walbart » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:46 pm

is there a breather? There is breathing happening, but what does the breathing?
The breathing is automatic, I have no control over it. Although I can hold my breath now if I want, or hyperventilate, but those are just responses. No breather. Just a body functioning.

you say you can feel the concept? How come?
I guess it's just a belief that I have, that I am something here, controlling. The concept of a person was always assumed, so I guess I don't really feel it as such. It's just imaginary. An idea, that is reinforced by constant sensations.

Close your eyes and identify the feeling of being, am. Hold it for a moment and see is it personal? Is there a separation from everything else that is?
I'm not really sure about this last part. I close my eyes and try to just feel being alive. There's not really a separate "being alive" feeling, it's more just like all the other feelings combined. Like there is the weight of my body, the tingling in my head, sounds going on outside, but these make up my feelings and sensations. There's not a solid feeling of am-ness separate from these. Is this right? There doesn't seem to be anything personal to it when I break it down like this.

Am I right to think there isn't a separate consciousness aware of all these sensations? But that the sensations themselves are direct and final, leading to nothing, to no receiver? I can guess the answer, I've had it shouted at me so many times... A thought is a thought, it appears then disappears, it doesn't report information back to anyone. A sound is a sound, it doesn't go anywhere. I think I'm close. Or I'm deluding myself, or I'm stupid.

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Walbart
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Re: If you are seeking to end the seeking, come in here.

Postby Walbart » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:51 pm

This is all nearly making sense. All the events and experiences taking place, but nothing at the centre of them all. Thinking is just the mind breathing. I feel like I'm on the verge for the first time. I've been here before but thoughts were wild and disruptive and kept the final sight away. Things seem calmer now, like I'm ready, but I'm not getting that final click. It'd almost be easier if there were no final click, but you guys all seem to talk about it.

The sight of these hands typing is just that. And not me looking at them. There's no emptiness inside me, it's just full of everything else, but no gap where I should be. I've been misunderstanding this for months. Not reading correctly. Or always assuming there's more, or some hidden depth to what people are saying. I understood "there is no looker" to mean "there is no looker you will ever find, it's a mysterious ghost of awareness in some other dimension". Language is terrible, as "looking" as an act requires a looker. In reality it doesn't. I feel like I'm hanging off a cliff by my fingertips here, but can't let go.

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Ilona
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If you are seeking to end the seeking, come in here.

Postby Ilona » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:46 pm

There is no boom and no bright lights once this is seen through. Shift is very subtle. May not even notice. Only when looking back may be clear that it did happen. So don't expect anything else as for what already is. It's not gonna add anything to experience, only a belief in separate self melts away.
Looks like its melting away rapidly on your side.

So was there a self ever? Me, that was in control of your life?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Walbart
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Re: If you are seeking to end the seeking, come in here.

Postby Walbart » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:49 pm

So was there a self ever?
No, it doesn't look like it.

BUT.

I don't feel free. Free from the assumption of self at every moment. I'm really trying to break this down today. If I look at my hand now I can explain the reality of what's happening. Yet I can't ignore or see through this assumed self, even though I should know better. I'm wary of talking myself into a hole here, I want to avoid my usual bs. I've been writing lots and trying to make sense and clear things up but I wont bore you with that here. I just want to get this. Or experience there's no I to get it. Which I know I am right now anyway. But.

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Ilona
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Postby Ilona » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:08 pm

Walbart. All that is happening is the unfolding of liberation. All conditioning can not collapse instantly, it happens overtime. And yes, there are waves of clarity and doubt, it's like breathing- in and out. But once it's seen, it can not be unseen. Just like with Santa. One can never believe that santa was ever real again.
This seeing makes a hole in illusion and it gets bigger and bigger until one day there is no more bubble.

So how does it feel being liberated?
Don't think, notice, cause its all just happening by itself.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Walbart
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Re: If you are seeking to end the seeking, come in here.

Postby Walbart » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:47 pm

Thanks Ilona, I appreciate what you're saying, but do you really think I've seen it? It felt like maybe on Friday, but I'm not so sure now. I'm still worrying that all I'm doing is adopting a new belief. I've read lots of other people's liberations and they all seemed a bit more dramatic...

But when you say "Don't think, notice", it rings true that yes, this is all there is. "This" constantly changes, but there's no escaping it. Nowhere to run or hide. Just face the music. I'm going to put "don't think, notice" into practice and see where it leads. Part of me is still lazily expecting you to zap me with an answer or liberation, but I guess that isn't the way.


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