Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

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cosmiK
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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby cosmiK » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:55 pm

Hey Peggy,
Sorry for the delay in responding. I've had some family dramas going on. I've also been a little perplexed by the inquiry & don't know where to go from here.
Okay, confusion is a good sign. It means you getting closer to this simple, yet constantly overlooked Truth.
I see what you are saying or getting at.. An 'experience' of an actual separate self is an illusion. Its created by the mind in thought but it does not exist 'out there' in the physical world.
There is just 'this' ... Experiencing, this Appearance, this Life.
within that occurs thoughts, sensations, assumptions of a separate self, a 'physical' world, ideas of 'inside' and 'outside'. However, without intellectual acceptance of this, refer to direct experience... all of this is arising to noone and no-thing. It is experienced by noone or no-thing. There is just this Experience. CHECK this and see.
Or... The 'Experience of a separate self' is simply an idea generated by the brain & does not actually exist apart from the person having the experience.
There is no 'person' having any Experience Peggy :)
If anything... Experience is having the person :) The person is 'appearing' within Experience.
There is only this Experience, right here, right now... including thoughts, and experiences of a person having an experience.
Experience is simple. It just is. Thoughts may label and conceptually divide Experience, yet it is simply also part of Experience, part of 'this', right here, right now.
Its possible to have a taste of this epiphany. But the act of re-creating it doesn't seem to get totally dropped like a hot potato. What prevents a person from continually 're-identifing with the illusion of a separate self? Practice?
Thoughts about a 'separate self' may arise, but they are only thoughts. Thoughts are just thoughts. nothing more.
There is Experience, and we can divide this in to 1) thoughts, 2) sensations, 3) a sense of aliveness... yet it is just simple Experience.

You are still thinking that this is a gradual process... which is born from the assumption that there is a YOU that is named "Peggy" having epiphanies, and/or identifying. You have to LOOK Deeply at this. Is there anyone there? Or is it just a self-referencing loop of thoughts referring to parts of Experience, and other thoughts?

WHERE is this person that is being prevented from continually re-identifying?

Instead of trying to see no-self, LOOK Deeply at what is trying? Is there anyone there?

Is there a center from which experience arises?

Is there a center from which experience comes from?

with Love.

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Empty Mirror
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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Empty Mirror » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:51 am

Hi Peggy

Cosmik invited me into this thread. My name is John :)

I have a few questions for you too. I know that we've given you a lot of homework, so no pressure, but please answer my questions when you get a chance.
Sorry for the delay in responding. I've had some family dramas going on. I've also been a little perplexed by the inquiry & don't know where to go from here.
It's best not to try to figure out where the enquiry is going, and to rather just do your best to answer every question from direct experience. The enquiry is aimed at keeping you focussed on direct experiential evidence, rather than the stories that thought tells about experience. The enquiry is not leading to a "final point", it's just trying to allow you to see how life has always been functioning without an "I" in it.

Just so that you're clear about what we mean by DIRECT experiential evidence, here is something that I've written when guiding other people.

When I say answer only from direct experience I mean that you're not allowed to use thought stories. There is a good reason for this. The reason is because by doing so you might discover that you are not the thinker of thoughts, and if that is true then obviously thought can not be trusted in a search for the truth.

Just so that you clearly understand what I mean, here is an example:

Sit in a chair and close your eyes. Now describe to yourself what you KNOW in the moment, and only what you know. That means look ONLY at true and direct experience, and not any thought stories about the experience.
Do you experience sitting in a chair?
Do you experience sitting?
Do you experience having a body?

An incorrect answer would be. I feel my butt on the chair and hear the sound of birds in the back yard, because you've added the story of a person's butt on a chair, and the story of birds in the back yard, and you haven't even mentioned the running comentary of thought that is also going on all the time.

You have to ignore the thought stories and describe ONLY direct experience.

If you do, you will find that direct experience does not tell you that you are sitting in a chair. Direct experience would be that you would feel pressure on your butt, but without thought (including memory thoughts) telling any story, all you can say is that there is sensation which is interpreted by thought to be coming from your butt. So in actual fact, from direct experiential evidence, and without using thought stories, you can not say that you are sitting on a chair, and you can not even say that you have a butt.

So the correct answer would be that there is just sensation that feels like pressure but can't be located, there's blackness, there are chirping sounds appearing in this blackness, and there are thoughts appearing out of nowhere that are telling a story about the direct experience, and then fading away into nowhere again.

Do you see the major difference between the two versions? One is looking at the thought story about what is being experienced, and the other is just looking at direct experience.

It's this direct experience that you need to stay focused on during this investigation.

What we're getting to here is NOT some kind of intellectual idea or psychological trick. We're talking about REALLY discovering that there REALLY is no "personal I".
I see what you are saying or getting at.. An 'experience' of an actual separate self is an illusion. Its created by the mind in thought but it does not exist 'out there' in the physical world.
Sit quietly with your eyes closed and notice thoughts arising. Is there a "mind" in DIRECT experience, or is there just a stream of thoughts that pop up, and sometimes follow other thoughts, and sometimes embellish other thoughts?
Or... The 'Experience of a separate self' is simply an idea generated by the brain & does not actually exist apart from the person having the experience.
Again check with direct experiential evidence and check whether there is a brain in direct experiential evidence. Is there a brain in direct experiential evidence, or are there just thoughts and ideas about a brain?

Is the "experience of a separate self" generated by a brain, or is it generated by thought?
Its possible to have a taste of this epiphany. But the act of re-creating it doesn't seem to get totally dropped like a hot potato. What prevents a person from continually 're-identifing with the illusion of a separate self? Practice?
You can't practice to become what you already are, and always have been. "Practice" encourages the belief that you need to do something in order to be what you already are, and that is simply not true.

But anyway, we're the ones who ask the questions here Peggy ;)

The answers to these questions will become obvious to you when you see through the personal I.

Forget about any idea of ending unhappiness, or being permanently blissful, and concentrate on whether ANY emotions or feelings are happening TO somebody or something. Thought says that they are, but we're about to check on whether thought can be believed.

Are you the thinker of thoughts? Please sit down quietly, with your eyes closed, and check this with direct experience.

Are you able to choose to only have happy thoughts? Are you able to stop thoughts at will? Are you able to decide what the next thought will be? Or do thoughts just pop up from nowhere?

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Batgirl » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:51 pm

Cosmik & John,

Thanks so much for your patience & not giving up on me :)
I will try to respond to these latest posts in a couple of days.

Love,

Peggy

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cosmiK
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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby cosmiK » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:49 pm

Peggy,

we will do no such giving up :)

take your time, investigate thoroughly and LOOK Deeply, yet make sure you keep in communication as much as possible as per our agreement. It is designed this way so there is a flow of investigation, reporting, pointing, investigating, reporting, pointing, investigating, reporting, pointing.... which leads to SEEing clearly,

with Love.

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Batgirl » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:52 pm

Hello cosmik,

"You are still thinking that this is a gradual process... which is born from the assumption that there is a YOU that is named "Peggy" having epiphanies, and/or identifying. You have to LOOK Deeply at this. Is there anyone there? Or is it just a self-referencing loop of thoughts referring to parts of Experience, and other thoughts?"

Wow, yes, in direct experience no 'separate self' is seen or experienced. Then feelings of fear arise- then thoughts arise like: 'how will I live then?', 'how does anything get done?', 'how does anything get taken care of?'
(I'm not asking 'you' those questions- I'm just reporting thoughts that arise.)

--------------------
John :)

"Sit in a chair and close your eyes. Now describe to yourself what you KNOW in the moment, and only what you know. That means look ONLY at true and direct experience, and not any thought stories about the experience.
Do you experience sitting in a chair?
Do you experience sitting?
Do you experience having a body?
[...]
So the correct answer would be that there is just sensation that feels like pressure but can't be located, there's blackness, there are chirping sounds appearing in this blackness, and there are thoughts appearing out of nowhere that are telling a story about the direct experience, and then fading away into nowhere again."

Got it :)

"Sit quietly with your eyes closed and notice thoughts arising. Is there a "mind" in DIRECT experience, or is there just a stream of thoughts that pop up, and sometimes follow other thoughts, and sometimes embellish other thoughts?"

There are only thoughts - no 'mind' is experienced.

"Again check with direct experiential evidence and check whether there is a brain in direct experiential evidence. Is there a brain in direct experiential evidence, or are there just thoughts and ideas about a brain?"

There are Only thoughts about a brain.

"Is the "experience of a separate self" generated by a brain, or is it generated by thought?"

It is Generated by thought.

"Are you the thinker of thoughts? Please sit down quietly, with your eyes closed, and check this with direct experience. Are you able to choose to only have happy thoughts? Are you able to stop thoughts at will? Are you able to decide what the next thought will be? Or do thoughts just pop up from nowhere?"

No, No, no, & no! Thoughts do just pop up out of nowhere?!?!

Love,

Peggy

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cosmiK
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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby cosmiK » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:03 pm

Hi Peggy,

very clear!
Wow, yes, in direct experience no 'separate self' is seen or experienced. Then feelings of fear arise- then thoughts arise like: 'how will I live then?', 'how does anything get done?', 'how does anything get taken care of?'
Fear arises because there is the assumption there is something to protect. There is no such thing. Thank Fear and thank it again for doing such a great job. Fear arises, and it is perfectly fine, as it arises to noone or no-thing.

Thoughts arise and say all sorts of things :) They arise to noone and no-thing

Living was going on without a separate self, and will continue going on after the illusion is seen through.
Things got done without a separate self, and will continue going on after the illusion is seen through.
Life took care of itself without a separate self, and will continue going on after the illusion is seen through.

Was there ever a separate self? LOOK deeply.

Will there ever be a separate Peggy? LOOK deeply.

---

is there a separate 'You' anywhere in any form?

is "me" ever more than a thought that may point to Experience and other thoughts?

is there separation anywhere?

is there anything missing in this moment?

are there any more doubts you would like to explore regarding the illusion of the separate self?



Please address each question from direct experience.

Lots of Love.

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Batgirl » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:10 pm

Cosmik,

"Was there ever a separate self? LOOK deeply. "

"There never was a 'me'"

"Will there ever be a separate Peggy? LOOK deeply."

No

"is there a separate 'You' anywhere in any form?"

No

"is "me" ever more than a thought that may point to Experience and other thoughts?"

No

"is there separation anywhere?"

No

"is there anything missing in this moment?"

Illusion of a separate' self? :)

"are there any more doubts you would like to explore regarding the illusion of the separate self?"

No doubts now... There is 'silence' - no words - nothing more to say - feeling shaky, unprotected & fearful but all is well.

Much love & gratitude,

Peggy

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cosmiK
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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby cosmiK » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:53 pm

Peggy,

Joy! :)
No doubts now... There is 'silence' - no words - nothing more to say - feeling shaky, unprotected & fearful but all is well.
All of that is totally fine, totally OK :) You cannot be harmed. There is no You :) :) :)

Are you ready for the final questions?

with Love.

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Batgirl » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:36 pm

Cosmik

"Final questions"?

Oh? Yes!

Love,

Peggy

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cosmiK
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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby cosmiK » Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:51 pm

Please answer in detail, each question, honestly and earnestly, and refer to direct experience. If the questions requires analysis and speculation, start with direct experience, here and now first, then let thoughts flow.


1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?



1.5) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.



3) How does it FEEL to see this? describe in detail.



4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.



5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?



6) describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? describe the key difference?



7) in what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?



8) what if i told you LU was a persuasion cult and we have just got you to believe that "there is no self". How would you respond?



9) do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?

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cosmiK
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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby cosmiK » Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:22 am

Hi Peggy :)

Just checking in

with Love.

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Batgirl » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:29 pm

Dear cosmik!

Sorry this response has taken so long. I wrote & rewrote & edited & reedited these responses & afraid it may still be a garbled mess :) Ive experienced a lot of hesitance & confusion the last few days, & then finding the right words to communicate with on this subject matter is difficult! :) but... Here goes....

1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?

There is no 'me' 'you' or 'I' that can be found in direct experience & there never has been in reality.

As for whether there ever will be' is the cause of confusion! Once this 'truth' is realized or seen through- one would hope the identification with it would totally cease.

But... Since the separate self has been programmed, habituated, & has been so prevalent, it may try to recreate itself when thoughts of vulnerability or fears of non-existence arise in its absence. But the separate self will 'never actually 'be' in reality.

1.5) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?

In this context, 'i' refers to Thoughts & feelings of a separate self. in other contexts 'I' can refer to one's 'awareness'.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion of separate self probably begins in childhood essentially when we begin to identify with thoughts. Thoughts create the idea of the separate self through feelings of lack or resistance to what is occurring. These thoughts can be very powerful & can seem to actually create 'other' realities, and can seem to provide an escape from pain or fears or uncertainty. This process becomes almost ingrained or habitual & continues until its interrupted or seen through.

3) How does it FEEL to see this? describe in detail.

When the illusion of separate self is initially grasped, there is a 'silence' or the 'mind' abruptly stops. Initially there was a little jolt or a kind of a 'tingling' that permeated the body with the shock of realization of a reality so long in experiencing.

Next feelings and thoughts of fear of the 'unknown' arises. there is Apprehension that one will not know how to live, or be able to function at all.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

Language can only describe the illusion it seems. it is hard to describe the 'reality'. It would be almost impossible for a neophyte such as myself to adequately describe it. If someone asked about it, I would only be able to recite my answer to Q#3?

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

It's happened in small spurts and gradually over the course of communication here. The first glimpse was when 'I' was asked to look at 'who' the 'claimant' was when I used the terms 'my body', 'my mind', etc. then there continued to be confirmation in each set of inquiries. Being asked if 'I' actually experienced a 'brain', or if I could control what I thought, when I thought, etc. was especially eye-opening. Also being encouraged to stay with 'direct experience' rather than 'ideas' and 'thoughts'.

I do not want to pretend that I have had a spiritual awakening. It feels almost too simple in a way.

So i can't say that i have had an explosive 'grand' awakening. There has definitely been a realization of seeing through the falseness of the separate self.

But... i feels like this 'going through the gate' process is only a beginning - I've taken a baby step only. &There is a realization of how much 'conditioning' there is to deal with & still feels like there's tremendous growth & discovery to experience from here!

6) describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? describe the key difference?

Before seeing was the same ol' drama of obsession & identity with thoughts of lack, fear of death, & seeking perfection, & resistance to 'what is'.

At the Moment of seeing was a momentary ceasing of all 'that'. There was even some laughter at the absurdity of it all, then came feelings of fear of 'not knowing'.

After 'seeing' life basically goes on as before. The feelings & thoughts continue, but they are caught & seen for what they are at times at least.

7) in what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?

So far, there are no dramatic changes in my life. I'm spending more time alone in quiet. Im Not feeling the need to watch as much television, or 'do' as much either. Im Not feeling the need to spend as much money (this was a major problem before). Ive also havent straightened my hair in the last 2 weeks! Lol! (i have very curly frizzy hair so straightening it is was somethung I did so people would approve of me!) There's definitely more attention to direct experience now. :)

Paradoxically while there is fear coming up, I'd like to add that interestingly there is also more 'courage' cropping up in certain circumstances - Less inclination to Not speak the truth as I see it?

Not sure what the future impact will be - So far, there seems to be simplicity, serenity, less drama but definitely more awareness of thoughts & feelings.

8) what if i told you LU was a persuasion cult and we have just got you to believe that "there is no self". How would you respond?

I would laugh!!! I did research before coming here :) Plus there has not been coercion or 'persuading' of any kind going on here:)

9) do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?

The guiding felt exactly like what I needed at the time. I was fearful & the welcome and encouragement given to those feelings was much appreciated. The promptness and immediate response to posts was very impressive & appreciated as well. I'm not sure what if anything could have been more effective. I'm sure this can be a difficult process for most of us, or we wouldn't be coming here. And Especially since 'words', 'language' & 'thoughts' are our main tripping points, I'm sure it must be challenging to know how to deal with different people & responses!

Much love,

Peggy

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Empty Mirror » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:06 am

Nice replies Peggy :)

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby Empty Mirror » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:40 am

Hi Peggy

Just a quick $0.02 from me. it seems clear to me that you've seen through the "I" thought structure but I just want to ask you a few clarifying questions, and point out a few things.
There is no 'me' 'you' or 'I' that can be found in direct experience & there never has been in reality.

As for whether there ever will be' is the cause of confusion! Once this 'truth' is realized or seen through- one would hope the identification with it would totally cease.
It has already ceased or you couldn't have typed that sentence :)

What you're talking about is not a re-identification, but rather a re-belief in thoughts that have no correlation with direct experiential evidence.
But... Since the separate self has been programmed, habituated, & has been so prevalent, it may try to recreate itself when thoughts of vulnerability or fears of non-existence arise in its absence. But the separate self will 'never actually 'be' in reality.
Exactly!!!

This is extremely important for you to stay clear on. WHO cares if conditioning continues? :)
1.5) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?
In this context, 'i' refers to Thoughts & feelings of a separate self. in other contexts 'I' can refer to one's 'awareness'
This is a good point but I'm concerned that you see "awareness" as a separate thing from anything else. "Awareness" is "this".

Can you see that there is no such thing as knowing without something to know? There can be no "knowing without a known", and the knowing and the known are completely indivisible. Just like a thought can never be separated from the awareness/knowing of it. Can you see that?

In other words you can't be aware of nothing. So awareness/knowing never appears alone. It always appears AS the known/knowing.

So "this" (entire "universe" of thought, images, sensations, emotions, chairs, PC's, people, etc) is one indivisible whole which is self aware. Not in the sense of each of the APPARENTLY individual things in "this" being aware, but in the sense of "this" seamless whole being aware of itself.

Does that make sense?

So when you say "awareness" is aware of something, you are saying that "this" is aware of something showing up in it.

And since you are what is aware of "this" you can only be "this" indivisible whole that is aware of itself.

Is this clear? Have you thought about it yet? If not, you will because eventually you will wonder how "you" are aware of "this" if there is no "you".

It's because you ALONE are "this".

Can you see this?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion of separate self probably begins in childhood essentially when we begin to identify with thoughts. Thoughts create the idea of the separate self through feelings of lack or resistance to what is occurring. These thoughts can be very powerful & can seem to actually create 'other' realities, and can seem to provide an escape from pain or fears or uncertainty. This process becomes almost ingrained or habitual & continues until its interrupted or seen through.
Great answer.
When the illusion of separate self is initially grasped, there is a 'silence' or the 'mind' abruptly stops. Initially there was a little jolt or a kind of a 'tingling' that permeated the body with the shock of realization of a reality so long in experiencing.

Next feelings and thoughts of fear of the 'unknown' arises. there is Apprehension that one will not know how to live, or be able to function at all.
Is this a fear of falling under the spell of "I" thoughts, or is it a fear born of realising that there is nobody and no thing here but "this" that you are?
But... i feels like this 'going through the gate' process is only a beginning - I've taken a baby step only. &There is a realization of how much 'conditioning' there is to deal with & still feels like there's tremendous growth & discovery to experience from here!
Well growth - no, but discovery - yes :)

It takes a while for this "seeing" to settle in, and as it does the whole "I" structure continues to dissemble and to be seen through more clearly.

There are many little trick-thoughts that pop up. The most alluring of these thought-tricks is the idea that there is some intention or choice going on "somewhere" even if it isn't in an "I" - don't believe that thought, it's nonsense, and we can show you that in "after-care" on Facebook.

Another is that there really are 'others" with their own first-person perspective - that is also nonsense, and something that takes a while to see through. Again "after-care" will sort that confusion out.

Finally, the other thought-trick is the thought that says - there is still the same conditioned thoughts and behaviour going on, so the "I" must have returned. More nonsense - something that never existed can never return.
6) describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? describe the key difference?

Before seeing was the same ol' drama of obsession & identity with thoughts of lack, fear of death, & seeking perfection, & resistance to 'what is'.

At the Moment of seeing was a momentary ceasing of all 'that'. There was even some laughter at the absurdity of it all, then came feelings of fear of 'not knowing'.
Great answer!!

The "not-knowing" can seem fearful at first but with time you'll see the glorious beauty of it. Take a look at 'not-knowing' closer. The more you do, the more the miraculousness and beauty of it will be noticed.
After 'seeing' life basically goes on as before. The feelings & thoughts continue, but they are caught & seen for what they are at times at least.
And so what if they're not. Can anything go wrong? :)
Paradoxically while there is fear coming up, I'd like to add that interestingly there is also more 'courage' cropping up in certain circumstances - Less inclination to Not speak the truth as I see it?
I'm interested to know what the fear is that you talk about.
Not sure what the future impact will be - So far, there seems to be simplicity, serenity, less drama but definitely more awareness of thoughts & feelings.
Another great response! That is exactly as it should be. Don't try to expect any impact, or anticipate anything, just continue to 'notice' as you are doing, and everything will gently reveal itself over time.

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Re: Batgirl (Peggy), this is your thread!

Postby cosmiK » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:58 pm

Hi Peggy,

Just checking in. We are excited to get you into our aftercare groups for any concerns you may have. Hope that allies well with you.

With Love.


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