GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

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khora
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby khora » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:43 pm

hi, martin.
are you here?
is there any "I" here? :)

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khora
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby khora » Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:46 pm

dear martin,
do you remember our agreement about posting daily?

please, come back when you feel ready to take this committment.

love,
a

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sunisini
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby sunisini » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:42 am

sorry dear alex
i went to holiday with my family and in mountains there was unexpectedly so bad internet connection that unfortunately i was not able to answer every day

now i am back with some feedback for you:

realising the fact that "I" is also only a thought was interesting point for me (kind of a missing link:)
- of course "I" arises again and again, but when seen only as a thought - than there is nothing more to do than see it like it is

so thought "I" cannot refer to anything in reality - it does only seemingly - there is no entity behind this thought

therefore the "I" doesn't really exist - it is only a thought (mostly connected with other thoughts) giving the illusion that there is some real entity behing all the thoughts and feelings

seeing this i realised that it is actually everything part of the seen picture, there is no "I" that can do anything about it and there is also no experiencer of all what is seen - it is only the movie itself, freely happening

so whats next?

greetings!
m.

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khora
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby khora » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:10 pm

dear martin,
it's ok.
i hope you enjoyed your vacation :)

what you wrote here seems very interesting
so i would just check how this applies to your daily experience

for example, when you feel hunger - what really happens? is there a self, an "I" which feels it? or it just happens? and if it just happens, how it happens?
or suppose someone insults you, or yells at you. what is your reaction in this case? is there someone who can feel insulted? or someone - a definite self - which "does" this insult?

and another line of inquiry for you.
let's take this concept of "enlightenment" or "liberation".
is there someone - a self, an "I" - which experiences this enlightenment / liberation? which can experience it, can "be" enlightened?

so i leave you here for now.

waiting :)

love,
a

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sunisini
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby sunisini » Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:52 pm

what to say, alex:)
hunger is happening, insulting is happening, reactions are happening - there is no other way something can happen than that is just happening, what else to say...

and how it happens? It just appears SUDDENLY - either there is hunger /or there is no hunger, hunger can be big /or small, it doesnt matter and it is the same with insultation - reaction can be bigger /or decent (there is no one who can influence how it would be - i just happens as it happens)

and at last - ofcourse there is no one who can become englightened or liberated, the life is as it is and always was (even when there was no seeing through the illusion of seemingly real self)


martin
(waiting curious about what happens next:)

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khora
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby khora » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:32 pm

mmmm what you write is wonderful :)
but i need to be convinced this is more than an intellectual understanding / theorizing / belief.

please, describe to me in detail what do we mean when we use the word "I" or "self" - and if there is anything in reality that corresponds to this word.
and, if not, how come we believe in it?

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sunisini
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby sunisini » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:56 pm

So in detail:
One fact is that our parents did teach us that we are "someone". That I am "I", and a mother is a mother and a father is a father etc. (as a fresh father I can see it quite clearly:))) (My daughter doesnt seem to be recognizing herself, while just some months old - for example if she sees herself in the mirror, she reacts more like it is some other person in the mirror and she kisses the one in the mirror:))) But during growing up - she is suddenly more and more recognizing that she is "someone" other than everything around

... so the base for the feeling "I" could be from the very childhood, our parents tought me that "I" am someone, who is like this and that. And the whole life "I" was taken like "someone", like some entity, which has to care about its own image...

Other fact for feeling like an "I", for taking oneself as an separate self - is that the body and mind (thoughts, feelings) seem to be really close to oneself and more vivid and alive than other images happening around, and than when we add that habit from the childhood - one thinks, that it is necessary to hold onto this image, because one was learned, that it is MY body, and thus also MY thoughts.

But in reality, once questioned - it is impossible to find this seemingly existing entity called "me" or "I" - it appears only as a thought "I". But behind it...there is nothing to see. Nothing to find. And than what remains is only "everything is happening".



AT LAST - One thing I have to mention again (this was for me quite interesting point!) ... is that for long time I was thinking about myself as an "experiencer" of "everything that is happening", but during this session with you I realised that this also looks more like kind of a "trick", where one can still feel like some "I", like something separate... (no matter how pure this role as experiencer look like:)

...SO while trying to see through it - the experiencer is also nowhere to find!...it only appears so, when one starts to divide "everything that is happening", when one start to describe it with mind and words...

AND thanks to that exploration - there is more easiness in "everything that is happening":))))))))
...this sounds really liberating to me :D



have a nice rest of the day
martin

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khora
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby khora » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:45 pm

nice work, martin :)
but there is still something that needs clarifying

when you write:
Other fact for feeling like an "I", for taking oneself as an separate self - is that the body and mind (thoughts, feelings) seem to be really close to oneself and more vivid and alive than other images happening around
what is that "oneself" that is taken as an "I", as a separate self?
it seems this is just another trick the old beliefs are playing :)

and another thing
how do you feel now, after seeing this?
we talked more about intellectual stuff - but how is it going on with feelings?
you talk about "easiness" - how is it, and is there anything else that changed at this level?

love,
a

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sunisini
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby sunisini » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:15 pm

Alex, I definitely knew that you will ask about the word "oneself":)))))

ofcourse I could avoid to use it but I just honestly DESCRIBED what we could MEAN when we use the word "I" or "self" and why we can easily belive in it

1. one thing with the habit from childhood...
2. second point about common functioning of body/mind/consciousness - that also thanks to the ability to KNOW things can easily get caught to the trap of thinking that "I" am that one, that knows...

after investigating is is SEEN that there is NO self, oneself, I, experiencer, perciever, knower etc...

AND about feelings...I must admit that most of quite great feelings about "life just happening AS IT IS" etc.- I enjoyed 8 years ago (as i wrote at the beginning)

but I guess for all the next years (until some days ago:) I still believed in the "I" as an experiencer ... so NOW without this belief - this is quite NEW feeling that is EASY, sometimes PEACEFUL, sometimes JOYFUL...but no big thing , so i dont know what more to say

lets see what appears later:))))
bye
m.

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khora
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby khora » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:38 pm

ok
so oneself = a complex of body, mind and feelings.
how is this different from believing oneself = an I, or a separate self?

and, of course, the point is not in avoiding or replacing words - and it's very good you describe honestly what is.

and yeah, the realization is not a big thing - sometimes this shift is very quiet, it almost makes no difference - just a belief in a separate self, which has disappeared - and its falling generates the falling of other beliefs

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sunisini
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby sunisini » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:05 pm

alex, sorry, maybe now i dont understand your question, can you please tell it with other words or more in detail?

I dont think that my identity is a complex of body, mind and feelings... it is just a STORY happening spontaneously: the body is seen (or actually most of the time not even seen:))), the same with mind and feelings - it is just appearing - and all of this is part of ALL THERE IS - and again HAPPENING FREELY

(maybe you want me to tell you that I AM EVERYTHING :DDDDDD) or what?

lovely evening!
m.

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khora
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby khora » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:16 pm

ok, so i misunderstood you then :)
and no, no "I AM EVERYTHING" and that blah-blah :)

indeed, the identity is constructed as a story about what's happening

i think you are ready for the final questions we have here, in order to make things more clear (and to make it easier for others to confirm if seeing happened indeed).
these are the questions. please, answer them in detail, take your time.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

when your answers are ready, i will show the thread to other guides - maybe they will have some more questions.

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sunisini
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby sunisini » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:44 pm

Hi, ok, here we go:

(1) There is no REAL "me", while looking at what is happening in direct experience. Sometimes it can only APPEAR as a thought "I" (that is mostly attached to experiences or to other thoughts like I think, I write, I do, I see - but all of the experiences actually happen by themself, without any need to be supported by some "I".) There never was a "me" existing in reality in any form or shape - only as an unexplored belief - and once questioned and looked through - it losts its importance and is seen as it is - as a thought just sometimes passing by, like anything else that is happening.


(2) It seems that illusion of separate self appeared through what our parents taught us, when we were young, I dont know when exactly. Probably already some months after birth. The illusory self sometimes looks like a complex of more things (thoughts, body, plus feeling of ones own identity that holds it seemingly together) ...or also, when you already see body+mind like something freely happening without control - one can still secretly think that "I" am a perciever of what is happening - but even in this role of experiencer - there can be still hidden belief - that one has to care about what the experiencer feels like...


(3) To see that there is no "I" in bodymind and there is also no "me" existing as an experiencer - this feels very light. What stays after seeing this is "Everything appering and disappearing, freely happening as it is" - which can be sometimes even extremely deLIGHTful and joyful:)))


(4) Instead of feeling to be center of everything, of body and mind (and so carrying this burden of memories and expectations) - suddenly life is living itself spontaneously without any authorship. Instead of you think you have to play hard your precise role in this movie - there is just movie playing:) (of course there is also a story of "Martin" happening, but not separate from the picture, so one doesn have to care about it too much, it happens on its own) What can it also feel like - It is like to think you weight 100kg and than you suddenly find out you weight zero. What a lightness. What a relief.


(5) The last bit for me was the exploration that the "I" can be also hidden in a role of an experiencer and thus kind of separate from what is experienced. So somewhere in the back one was still feeling that it is possibility or even necessity to care about what is happening - which was seen as false expectation. Everything is happening without any need to have an experiencer. Dividing LIFE into experience and experiencer is only mental construction, whích can come only afterwards (after spontaneous happening of everything).
And very helpful pointer was also to find out- that the thought "I" cannot "think" other thoughts, cannot control them, it is also JUST another THOUGHT appering and disappearing - that was interesting push.

So these are my answers. Looking forward for any kind of feedback, dear friends.
Martin

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khora
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby khora » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:21 pm

nice work, dear martin.
maybe this question would seem a little silly, but - do you feel anything is missing right now?
how do you feel about all that happened here?

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sunisini
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Re: GREETINGS (and REQUEST)

Postby sunisini » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:34 pm

thank you alex
noting is missing

oh no wait...something is still missing!
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.
.
.
.
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a cigarette ;)

and how i feel?
this thread was nice clarifying
one can never know which pointer will push him through the gateless gate


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