A “Me” seeing that “Me” dont exist

[Koushik]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I understand that it means there is no “Me” that is controlling and managing my life through volition. Everything is happening by itself. I practice “self investigation “ by Ramesh Balsekar where you pick one action from the day and ask myself if it was really done by “Me”, if it would have happened if i weren’t at a particlr place at particlr time

What are you looking for at LU? I am really looking forward to see through the illusion of “Me”. Inspite of so much intellectual understanding and investigation, i still dont experience this truth of a “no-Me”. I am more than 5 years into it and stuck at reading books and also having an understanding that the truth is non conceptual

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I would really appreciate if the guide can point to something i am not looking at correctly and also help me see how active deliberate thinking is a happening and not done by a “Me”. Someone who can show me what truth is exactly, often times i confuse the truth with the actual purpose of the ego

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I used to do meditation not anymore but i like to ask myself,Am i aware and rest in the knowingness. Time to time see how this tacit knowing illuminates all the experience. However my biggest practice id say is “self-investigation”. At the end of the day id sit down and go through as many action as possible have happened during that day and see myself if they have happened by themeselves by asking myself , if the action would have happened if i weren’t there at a particular place at a particular place of time, tracing the causal chain all the way back to seeing how if i were born to a different parents my entire life would been different. Everyday after my investigation, so obviously id get to the conclusion by seeing how alll the actions happened by themselves or how there are plenty of actions influencing my actions

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

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[Anastacia42]

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

Basically, the "trick" or method here is direct looking. Learning to LOOK, with your eyes & ignore the content of your thinking. We'll get there.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[Koushik]

Hi Stacy,
Thank you very much for being my guide.

I have read the disclaimer and the FAQs

How will life change?

Life will be same as before, except there will be less suffering or suffering will not be personal.

How will you change?

There wont be any change, maybe there will be more peace, contentment and more compassion.

What will be different?

Nothing will be different, there will be less or no identification with "me" or "i-thought"

What is missing?

Right now, there is very clear intellectual understanding. There are a few insights here and there about how the "I" myself take to be is nothing but a thought. On other occasion, there was a seeing, how "I" is just a viewpoint you look from and is nothing more than that but these insights didn't last long. So what's missing right now is, i want to be disidentified with the ME and see the reality in direct experience as it is, how everything is happening by itself.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

You can call me Koushik. I am in Los Angeles, CA. Pacific Standard Time zone.



Regards,
Koushik

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, Koushik

Good.Your expectations are pretty reasonable. Now this one.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving

[Koushik]

Good Morning Stacy,

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

Fear comes up when i read this and a sense of freedom arises along with a feeling on uneasiness. Few doubts arise around the control and choice. If there is no separate self, who is making the choices and who is controlling my life and these are seen just as thoughts and yet a separate self cant be found in the direct experience.


thanks

[Anastacia42]

Good. Yes.

There is a Direct Looking process for fear.

https://youtu.be/jKX1llYtlKE?si=jHXuuyyVtp7c-1R2

And this one:

https://youtu.be/fSTT8nc8cvQ?si=Alcukpbi7SUlXpfi

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[Koushik]

Thank you for the videos. I'll do those meditations and report back about fear.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

The colored socks example was very good. Its a good reference to come back to whenever i am looking for something in thinking instead of direct experience.
Yes Stacy, its very clear what direct experience is.

[Anastacia42]

Good. I'll watch for your responses on the videos.


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Koushik]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Seeing a table, simply = image/color,
Smelling tea, simply = smell
Feeling the sensation of feet on carpet, simply = sensation
Tasting the banana, simply = taste
Hearing the sound of fan, simply = sound
Thought about going to the beach, simply = thought

I'll post more by tonight

[Anastacia42]

Those are right.

Remember this is not about correct answers. We want you to feel what it's like to see. You can do more if you like or you can move on to the next step

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[Koushik]

I just did the 20 min Mind Labeling exercise,

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Although first one felt more natural or default way of writing about experience, the second one felt truer because the "I" is fabricating the experience by incorporating an "I" when truly there is only what's happening.

2. What is here without labels?

Just whatever in that moment that is being heard, seen, smelt, tasted, sensed and thought about.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They just describe the experience.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I didn't notice any big difference in the body except a little expansiveness when writing down the experiences in second 10 minutes.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Let's look closer at truth & expansiveness & its opposite.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[Koushik]

What is found?

I can see that very clearly. There is a sensation, its almost like a sting in my heart. It feels like the guilt from lying.

Do you see that?

Yeah i see that, it feels like the contraction. I told myself a few truths as well to find the difference. When i say a truth, the sensation are neutral or not very noticeable but when i lie, there is a clear heaviness in the heart.

[Anastacia42]

Excellent. You're likely to have more of a truth Sensation when you clearly see the truth of no "self." Watch for that.

Now try this:

Here is another exercise that makes it even clearer that labels are not the things they refer to. They are merely the content of thought that we made up.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with something called "reality." But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like "good" and "bad" are inherent characteristics of "things." But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
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Loving,

[Koushik]

As i told, id report back on the meditations about fear. I did those meditations and once i welcomed wear and stayed with it, the fear disappeared and i repeated the meditations and i felt very expansive and open at the end.

I don't know if this is relevant but i want to mention it, yesterday while i was doing the 20 mins exercise and writing everything down, i noticed all the thought and i was aware at the end of each thought that it was nothing but a thought. Attention shifted to the I-thought or I and i could see how its just a thought like other thoughts. In that seeing, it felt like a knot of energy released.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Just the seeing of the image & color of each of the characters.

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

No, the color is just experienced, the label could be completely different but the color is experienced still the same way.

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

No, they seem to try to simplify the reality in terms of words/language

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

No, they just seem to describe what is here now

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

Its just a label

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No, it doesn't. Good or bad is just still a label and doesn't affect the redness.

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
[/color]

Labels have no effect on reality at all.

Thank you, that was a really good exercise. It made things clear in my head how label is just a label.