my intellectual understanding isn't liberation

[vinceschubert]

Hey Paz,

that’s just how I’m made”. It didn’t take much consideration, however, to realize it was an identity that was unknowingly being protected.

It may be that you are "made" that way or that you have evolved into that. If that is the case then Identification is in your relationship to that. If it's an adopted persona then it is the identification.

Seems to me that only the proving I’m a righter of wrongs would be a contraction. Maybe you can clarify

Same as above. It it's a defensive contraction then it's identification.

Are you saying that metta for the overall suffering justifies harshness for some parts?

Metta could be expressed in many ways. (or not displayed at all)

Isn’t that the case with everything?

yes

much love

vince

[bluzulu]

Thank you Vince for your responses and for the time and consideration you give to this work.

watching this whole identities thing is fascinating and (I hope sufficiently) humiliating.

Gratefully,
/p

[bluzulu]

Vince, although nearly all are how I naturally am, it seems that these various identities are sticky thoughts relating to proving those qualities to others. Like fantasies of controlling people's future image of Pablo.

Seeing that, these years and years old patterns of thoughts have tremendously lessened in frequency and stickiness.

Also, there has been seeing how often some thought gets labelled 'oh no, that's the imaginary me" and rejected with, ironically, a sense that the rejector is 'me'!

It is now seeming that the above habitual cognitive events are at least a significant portion of what has caused regression to the 'me' in the past.

but there is still experiencing others as if they are somehow agents responsible (vs simply accountable) for their actions.

Thank you.

[vinceschubert]

Hey Pablo,

there is still experiencing others as if they are somehow agents responsible (vs simply accountable) for their actions.

As with any of this stuff, it's not about what comes up, but with your relationship to it.
It is in the relationship that the identification exists.
You're still experiencing “others” as responsible agents because the story of doership is still operating. Responsibility, in that sense, implies choice, control, intention. But is that actually present?
Are you seeing clearly that these things just happen? ..or do you still believe that there's a you that chooses or controlls what happens?

much love

vince

[bluzulu]

As with any of this stuff, it's not about what comes up, but with your relationship to it.
It is in the relationship that the identification exists.

Yes, that is increasingly coming into focus.

You're still experiencing “others” as responsible agents because the story of doership is still operating. Responsibility, in that sense, implies choice, control, intention. But is that actually present?

No, those cannot be real. I will begin paying more attention to the subtle stories.

Are you seeing clearly that these things just happen? ..or do you still believe that there's a you that chooses or controlls what happens?

It is the experience of agency in the context of knowing it cannot be that is causing some suffering here. Your comments/insights are spot on and the experience is changing. Thank you again.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Pablo, just to confirm what’s already seen, and to unearth anything still squatting in the shadows.
Even a trace of belief in a center keeps the illusion breathing.
[/b]
Questions to expose any surviving delusions resting on the lie of self.
Don’t rush.

Don’t answer from the head.

Feel it.
Let the body show you where something grips, contracts, hides, resists.
—
1. Right now—can you find a self in direct experience?
Not the idea of a self. Not the story.
The actual thing.
2. When a thought arises—who is it for?
Who hears it?
Is there a listener?
3. Can you find the source of the next thought?
Is it chosen?
Or does it simply appear, like wind through an open window?
4. Is there a center anywhere?
A fixed point where “you” reside?
Can you feel that spot? Or is it assumed?
5. When emotion arises—what triggers it?
Can you locate its beginning?
Who is it happening to?
6. Try to start awareness.
Try to stop it.
Where is the switch?
7. Is there anything in your direct experience—sight, sound, sensation—that requires a self to occur?
8. Where’s the edge?
Can you point to where “you” end and the world begins?
9. This sense of “I”—is it anything more than a loop of sensation + thought + belief?
Strip it down. What’s left?
10. If all thoughts stopped right now—
What remains?
And who is missing?
—
Don’t explain. Don’t interpret.
Stay with the fire.
Let the body answer.
Report from the raw.
What still feels sticky?
What still feels real?
What hasn’t dissolved?


much love

vince

[bluzulu]

1. Right now—can you find a self in direct experience?
Not the idea of a self. Not the story.
The actual thing.

Just a feeling associated with the assumption of a self making decisions, initiating actions, etc. But watching closely, all those things just happen by themselves.

2. When a thought arises—who is it for?
Who hears it?
Is there a listener?

That same feeling is there, but it’s more like a thin fog that is easily seen through.

3. Can you find the source of the next thought?
Is it chosen?
Or does it simply appear, like wind through an open window?

Just appears.

4. Is there a center anywhere?
A fixed point where “you” reside?
Can you feel that spot? Or is it assumed?

No, there is sort of a general location where cognition and perception occur. It is good to be reminded there is no true boundary between ‘inside’ and ‘outside’.

5. When emotion arises—what triggers it?
Can you locate its beginning?
Who is it happening to?

Kind of like what triggers rain in any given place or time. No separable causes.

6. Try to start awareness.
Try to stop it.
Where is the switch?

There is an intentional character to it. But the ‘cause’ of the intention cannot be found.

7

. Is there anything in your direct experience—sight, sound, sensation—that requires a self to occur?

Nope. And the feeling of self doesn’t do or cause anything.

8. Where’s the edge?
Can you point to where “you” end and the world begins?

Nope.

9. This sense of “I”—is it anything more than a loop of sensation + thought + belief?
Strip it down. What’s left?

Just a sort of reflexive misattribution.

10. If all thoughts stopped right now—
What remains?
And who is missing?

Emptiness, when and to the degree it happens, is sweet.
—

[bluzulu]

What still feels sticky?
What still feels real?
What hasn’t dissolved?

still some sense of guilt/shame for times when my selfish actions have resulted in suffering for others.

still sometimes automatic inner responses to other people as if there is some kind of self responsible for their actions.
irrational, dysfunctional, but it happens.

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Pablo,

still some sense of guilt/shame for times when my selfish actions have resulted in suffering for others.

still sometimes automatic inner responses to other people as if there is some kind of self responsible for their actions.

Has this happened since we last spoke?
If you recall an incident of that happening, what is your cerebral reaction?
What is your visceral reaction?
Notice that i'm not asking (or interested) in the event - but in your relationship to it.

Now, Just to drive it home... Yes. It happens.

But what is “it” that happens? Let’s cut it open.

When guilt arises—when shame pulses—what exactly is going on now?

Let’s dissect it right here:
Right now, bring to mind one of those “selfish” actions you regret.
Wait for the guilt. Let it arrive.

Now stop.

Don’t move forward in the story. Drop it.

Where is the guilt felt?
Where in the body?
What are the exact sensations? Be precise—throbbing? heat? tension?
Stay there.

Now:
Who is guilty?
Don’t answer—look.
Who is guilty?
Find the exact place where the guilty one exists.
Not the sensation—not the story—the one who “should’ve known better.”

Can you find it?

You’re not done yet.

Now recall a moment when someone hurt you.
Let the reaction arise.

Now freeze it.

What just happened inside?
A contraction? An image of them? A defensive posture in the gut?

What made it feel like they did something to you?

Was there a distinct, autonomous “they”—or just a bundle of conditions unfolding, like a wave hitting your shore?

Go slow. Watch the internal movie frame by frame.

Can you find the “other” behind the eyes of that body?
Is there a director inside them, or just behavior arising like weather?

You say “irrational, dysfunctional, but it happens.”

Exactly. So stop treating these moments as problems to fix.

They are revelations.

They expose where selfing still runs the show.

Every spike of guilt, every flash of blame is a notification saying:

“Here. Still a ‘me’. Still a ‘them’. Still a story of doership being lived as truth.”
So here’s what you do next:

Sit with one of those guilt-shame-body hits.
Stay there. No thought. Just direct, raw sensation.
Let the illusion burn itself out.

Then report:

What did you feel?
What wasn’t there that you thought would be?
What remains when the story dissolves?
Until then, stay right in the fire. Don't run. Don’t fix. Feel. Look. Report.

much love

vince

[bluzulu]

Yes, thanks. Those no longer hold identity with what is here now.
Interestingly, pride for 'good' acts now floats into awareness. A smile. It's ok. It's just something happening. And now that too is just a memory.

Ahhh

[vinceschubert]

Hi Pablo, Let’s run through these questions and see if there’s anywhere that needs further investigation.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


vince

[bluzulu]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

It was just always there, taken for granted by me and apparently by most people.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

No more trying to see it. Peaceful. No trying to figure it out, or ‘be’ it. It’s like cataracts have been removed and colors are brighter, but that analogy isn’t nearly suficient. Things that previously made sense are now just how it is. And so do a lot of them that didn't make sense when credible people talked about "enlightnment" or "liberation" etc.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

Very gradual. Vince, your free stories on Substack, and your free Zoom meetings as well as the ones for your Substack subscribers have been major influences.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

I can do many things, whether or not I do them is totally a matter of conditioning and conditions. Just like a tree can sway in the wind and water can push around big rocks.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

No more responsible than is the water for pushing rocks.
Accountable, yes. Without cops, I’d probably drive a lot faster than the speed limit. If my actions cause unnecessary suffering to my wife or others I generally suffer emotionally and focus on how to do better.

6) Anything to add?

Nope.
Now what? 😊

[bluzulu]

Well yes, there is something else.
That love that you speak of and that I said hadn't happened with me.

Now it has.
It seems that when there is inner peace and no fear, love happens. It's nice. Judgements of others still happen, but have no effect in either way, they just happen and then are not happening. It's nice.

Thank you Vince.
Thank you.