Am I who I think I am?

[dottymoo101]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for the latest reply.

I haven't had a chance to look at it yet, I'm planning to reply tomorrow.

Best,
Dot

[poppyseed]

Hey Dot
No worries!
I'm looking forward to reading these :)

Love
Rali

[dottymoo101]

Hi Rali,

Beautiful!!

Thank you.

Now don’t let this become a story. Don’t let “less resistance” become another identity wearing a spiritual smile.

I appreciate your pointing out this potential pitfall.

If there’s no controller, is there any need for effort?

Effort assumes that there is a someone doing something, trying to control or change things. But if there’s no controller, there’s no need for effort. In this moment, there’s shapes, colours, sound, taste, smell, sensation, heart beating, breathing, bodily processes, thoughts arising, all simply unfolding effortlessly on their own without a separate ‘me’ making it happen. No need for effort. When there is a feeling of effort, it’s just another thought arising dividing experience in to subject and object.

Or does everything keep flowing regardless?

It’s not like everything stops flowing when the feeling of efforting passes. Everything is flowing all the time with or without the appearance of thought label effort.

Is there even an ‘observer’ left now? Or only the observing?

There’s no ‘observer’ and no ‘observing’ in direct experience. Like effort, observing assumes a someone doing the observing – a someone and a something. Just more thought labels.

Keep burning the illusion now. Not later. Not with “insight”.
Keep on looking.
So—what's here, without a self to hold it?

Just this. Life happening, completely free, needing no one to hold it.

Here are the questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer

OK I will

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there’s isn’t and there never was, that was just a belief.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is really just a story my mind creates on top of my experience. It feels so real because it’s been happening for as long as I can remember, starting when I was an infant. As I learnt to talk, I began using words like ‘I’, ‘me’, and ‘mine’, which made it seem like there was a a unique, distinct ‘me’ that owned experiences and made choices. Once I accepted this idea, my thoughts kept reinforcing it. I started thinking in terms of ownership and control such as - ‘this is my idea’, ‘I thought of that’, ‘I need to do this’ ‘I must make more effort’ ‘I can change’. All of this just strengthened the illusion of a distinct and separate self. But when I really look for this 'me' or 'I', I see that it's
nothing more that a collection of thoughts, stories and beliefs. Under direct scrutiny, the whole idea of a separate self falls apart.

3) How does it feel to see this?

Wonderful and liberating. It’s a bit crazy considering nothing has really changed.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days - please give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

A big difference is that the feeling of an executive ‘controller’, a ‘me’ making decisions and choices has fallen away. Even the notion of decision has dropped away. I’m no longer thinking in terms of deciding anything: life happens the way it happens. On the whole, I’m thinking less. I’ve noticed I’m more able to get on with tasks without running a story of ‘I’m so busy’, or ‘I must get this done’, the doing just gets done by itself. In fact, I feel as though I’m getting through tasks more efficiently and more effectively: life seems to be flowing more easily. I’ve shared about my involvement with LU and Vipassana with some people from my local Buddhist centre, which until recently I’d not shared for fear of being dismissed as ‘not a serious practitioner’. This has been a big shift from clinging to a belief about what spiritual practice is and projecting on to others. Overall the difference is that there is no longer a belief in a ‘separate self’ trying to make sense of what is simply - just this. And now I see there never was.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Sitting here with this question, what comes up is suffering—the suffering of ‘keeping’ LU and Vipassana a secret. Not sharing ‘practice’ (for want of a better word) with friends in the sangha. Worrying about what folk might think. And at the same time, running a strong story that ‘I don’t care what they think.’ I felt conflicted, disconnected, unplugged from the community.

Then it suddenly became very clear - ‘who is here to protect?’, ‘what needs protecting?’—and that the Buddhist community I practice in is, after all, simply a bunch of conditions coming together with a label. In that moment, the tension around keeping things secret just loosened. The conflict wasn’t mine—it was just thoughts playing out.

Shortly after, I met up with the chair of my local sangha for a coffee. They asked how I’d spent the day (a day spent looking at and responding to these questions), and without hesitation, ‘responding’ just arose all by itself. No filtering, no second-guessing - just an answer, effortless. Since then, I’ve noticed more ease in conversations, less attachment to how I’m perceived, and a lightness in just being with whatever arises.

Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Before this dialogue, decision felt like a process of ‘me’ choosing between options, weighing up the pros and cons and taking responsibility for ‘my’ decisions. There was a sense of ‘control’, sometimes doubt and definitely over-thinking.

Now it’s seen that there’s no ‘decider’ no ‘decisions’ and that decisions just happen based on conditions. No need for a separate self. An example would be a couple of days ago I was invited to the pub. Instead of what might have been a a drawn-out mental debate of ‘should I’, ‘shouldn’t I’ and so on, I just noticed a simple response of no. The decision wasn’t made, it just happened, based on conditions.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention used to feel like something I created - like a force of will I used to direct my actions and control outcomes, as if there was a ‘me’ making decisions to bring things about. For instance, during meditation, I would set an intention to stay focused or to pay attention to sensations or my breath.

Now, though, intention doesn’t feel like a personal force anymore; it just arises naturally from the conditions around me. So when I sit down to meditate, the intention to focus simply comes up on its own. I don’t have to create or maintain it. If it’s there, great; if it shifts, that’s fine too. There’s no longer a need to force intention -it's just the experience of it coming and going as it pleases

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Before this conversation, I felt like I was in the driver’s seat, making choices and shaping my life. I believed in an independent self that could decide freely, untouched by external or internal influences. For example, I thought my spiritual growth came from my efforts - I chose to meditate and seek insight, directing my own path.

But now I see that free will isn’t what it seems. Thoughts and actions arise on their own, shaped by various conditions without a separate self. My drive for spiritual practice emerged naturally; the urge to meditate and explore wasn’t chosen by a separate ‘me’. Books, teachers, experiences all influenced my journey without me realizing it. Those few small moments of insight weren’t due to personal will; they just happened when the conditions were right. Looking back, the idea that I could control my spiritual growth was just another illusion. Another mental fabrication.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Choice used to feel like something I do, I make a choice to do something or not. For example, I used to think that I was actively choosing to meditate, making a choice whether to sit or not.

Now it’s seen that the choice to meditate isn’t coming from a separate ‘me’. Some days, the body just sits. Other days, distractions pull attention elsewhere. The decision arises from conditions not from an independent ‘chooser’.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control used to feel like something I had over my actions, thoughts, and even my future. But control is just another mental fabrication it only exists as a concept, as an idea. Just another story of mind.

Take driving my car for example. I might think I’m in control of the car, but my reactions happen before I even realize it. A pedestrian steps out and my foot hits the brake without me even thinking about it - there’s no separate self making a conscious decision to avoid the passenger by hitting the brake, there's just a quick response. It just happens.

Another example, the conversation I had with the chair of my local Buddhist centre. I had no control of the words that came out, they just did. It was if the words spoke themselves, no me making speech happen.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Everything happens because of causes and conditions coming together. If I suddenly feel like going for a walk, it’s not because a separate ‘I’ made a random decision. Maybe it’s the sunny weather, a memory of past walks, or just my body wanting to move - all of these factors come together to create that feeling.

Now I see that there’s no central ‘controller’ making things happen - thoughts, actions, and events simply unfold from a continuous flow of influences. Just like a tree grows because of soil, water, and sunlight, choices and actions arise naturally from the conditions, without ‘me’, a separate ‘doer’ behind them.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There’s no separate ‘me’ that’s responsible for anything - yet responsibility still shows up as part of life. Take insuring my car, for example. The thought that I need to renew my insurance just pops up and then I feel that little nudge of responsibility - maybe a bit of tension in my body, like a gentle push to act. Then the hands move, the payment gets made, and it’s done. But there’s no ‘me’ controlling any of that? The thought, the feeling, the action - they all just appear and unfold naturally. Responsibility isn’t something I carry around; it’s just part of the flow of life happening on its own.

6) Anything to add?

I'd like to sit with this another day or two

Heartfelt thanks for guiding me Rali. Nothing much changed, but I feel so different.

With gratitude,
Dot

[poppyseed]

Hi DotWelcome home!

It appears that the Gateless Gate has been crossed, but as you know there is no Gate, no one to cross it, and no end to the journey. It has been such a pleasure to walk beside you! Your openness and willingness to look were simply awesome and made guiding you a joy. Of course it is not necessarily the end of our conversation.

There have been no more questions for you, which means that you will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

You can also consider being a guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference, which you will be able to access once your name has turned blue, join in any group discussions on FB, or make use of LU online support groups run by senior guides free of charge.

There are three of those, and they meet on Zoom – do contact the organisers for extra info, links and schedules:
1) Vince runs one on Wednesdays and weekends. Contact: vinceschubert@gmail.com
2) Luchana and Lubo run one on Thursdays. Contact: Luchana at luchanauzunova@gmail.com
3) Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Contact: admin@ilonaciunaite.com

viewforum.php?f=49

You can also explore the ten Fetters, which is a structured way of approaching remaining beliefs:
Kevin Shinilac has instructions on his site https://www.simplytheseen.com/

Pernille Damore and Todd Lent https://www.youtube.com/@TheAwakeningCurriculum

Love
Rali

[dottymoo101]

Hi Dot,

Welcome home!

Thank you Rali :)

I’m on holiday at the moment in Cornwall. Mobile coverage is patchy and there’s no wifi in the historic building where I’m staying. Currently sitting on the beach facing West, sun going down and a bunch of surfers battling the crashing waves. And there’s 4G, so I can finally reply to your email.

It appears that the Gateless Gate has been crossed, but as you know there is no Gate, no one to cross it, and no end to the journey. It has been such a pleasure to walk beside you! Your openness and willingness to look were simply awesome and made guiding you a joy. Of course it is not necessarily the end of our conversation.

Thanks Rail and thank you for being an awesome guide. I’m sure there’ll be questions as the weeks pass.

There have been no more questions for you, which means that you will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Yes I’ve received the email about joining facebook groups and will look at this when I’m home again. I received your contact details too. Thanks for sharing and keeping open communication.

Your username will change from green to blue. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

OK

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

Yes I understand. I won't stop looking. And yes I will contact you with anything that comes up.

You can also consider being a guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

Good to know and will keep in mind.

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference, which you will be able to access once your name has turned blue, join in any group discussions on FB, or make use of LU online support groups run by senior guides free of charge.

Good to know and again will look in more detail after my holiday.

You can also explore the ten Fetters, which is a structured way of approaching remaining beliefs:
Kevin Shinilac has instructions on his site https://www.simplytheseen.com/

I’m aware of of Kevin's work and have already started to look at this. It’s re-assuring that you mention it here as a way to keep looking.

Pernille Damore and Todd Lent https://www.youtube.com/@TheAwakeningCurriculum

Same with Pernille.

With thanks and grattitude,
Dot