Trying to End the Search

[Pachomius53]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
What I consider to be my self is an illusion. There is no self. There is only consciousness. But we are conditioned to believe in a self, and that sense of self is a useful convention in social situations, but in reality there is no self. That sense is an illusion.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to be free of the sense of self. I intellectually accept that there is self, but I still live with the sense that I am a separate being traveling inside this body, situated somewhere behind my eyes. I am looking for reality, to actually experience the loss of self or the transcendence of self that I have heard of and read about.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would expect that a guide would be able to ask me the kinds of questions that help me to look deeply into myself to see that that sense of self is not real, to help me understand that everything I experience merely arises in consciousness and is not mediated by a real self. I would expect to be questioned, and if I don't answer honestly, to be pressed on it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am 71 years old and have been meditating on and off since I was 19. I was raised as a devout Catholic I have dabbled in Zen, Christian meditation and Centering Prayer. In 2006, I attended a 10-day Vipassana retreat under the (video) guidance of S.N. Goenka. I did not carry on the recommended two hours a day of meditation for more than a few weeks, and the practice fell by the wayside. For the last four years I have meditated regularly, twice a day or more for at least 30 minutes at time, following the guidelines of Vipassana. I have completed the introductory 28-day meditation course on Sam Harris' Waking Up app and have read "The Gateless Gatecrashers."

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[warissem]

Hi

My name is Nour, I am glad to walk with you to help you see through the illusion of a separate self.

Read the disclaimer text
Be 100% honest in your answers to my questions.
Leave aside all the stuff about spirituality

You said in your introduction :

I want to be free of the sense of self.

Who (or what) is wanting to be free of the sense of self?

Nour

[Pachomius53]

First, Nour, thank you very much for offering to guide me. I appreciate your time.
You ask who or what is wanting to be free of the sense of self. That's the question, isn't it? Who or what? I would say it is I, Edward, who seems to me to be the same person today as he was yesterday, and the day and the day before, who carries and reacts to the memories of a lifetime.
I have read and heard and watched videos that tell me that that "I" doesn't exist, and that makes perfect sense to me, that it is an illusion of the mind. But -- and please correct me if I'm wrong -- knowing that intellectually and experiencing it are two different things.
I will say that in meditation I have looked for this "I" and don't find it, but I can't get over the sense that I am a person living in my head who is riding around in this body. "I" am seeing, hearing, thinking, doing, the "I" that is separate from everything outside of my skin.

[warissem]

Hi Edward

First, learn how to use the quote function here https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ
Apply the quotes to each of my questions then write your answers. it helps to make a clear distinction between questions and answers.

I will say that in meditation I have looked for this "I" and don't find it, but I can't get over the sense that I am a person living in my head who is riding around in this body. "I" am seeing, hearing, thinking, doing, the "I" that is separate from everything outside of my skin.

Now, we will go about this "I" which is doing everything even it is not found in direct experience.
Before going ahead, I invite you to familiarize with LOOKING AT Direct Experience here :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyNwhK2Ur1c

Direct experience is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations. There is thinking but no need to lean on the content of thoughts.

Example : what is the color of the sky right now?
You can guess the answer OR open the window, LOOK AT the sky and SEE its color.
You agree with me that the true answer is given after SEEING it.
Here it is about seeing, but this is available for the five senses.

Having said that : is there really a person living in your head or is it just a thought story about a person?
Is there an I doing the seeing, the hearing?
Can you chose to not see or to not hear?

Please give a separate answer to each question after having looked at the direct experience.

Nour

[Pachomius53]

Nour,
Thank you for pointing me to the quote directions.
And thank you for that YouTube video link. I watched it, and then I searched the Liberation Unleashed channel for "Direct Seeing" and came across this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U6irUqXgwk. I watched it once, then I watched it again as a meditation (it worked out perfectly since my meditations are normally 30 minutes). And it clicked! When I came out of the meditation, I opened my eyes, and something was different, though everything was the same. It was so simple and clear: I no longer had the sense of there being a self inside of me that is doing. Everything was just happening, it wasn't happening TO me. Just happening. I sat for a few minutes enjoying the rain on my window, then went to the kitchen and did the breakfast dishes. Now, sitting her typing, there is still no sense of self anymore. I have felt on the verge of something for days, and I think I've just been pushed over the edge.

is there really a person living in your head or is it just a thought story about a person?

No, there is absolutely not a person living in my head, not even "myself." It is just a thought.

Is there an I doing the seeing, the hearing?

No, there is just seeing and hearing.

Can you chose to not see or to not hear?

No, you certainly have no choice in the matter.

Thank you again for your post. I look forward to hearing from you, and I wish you well.

[warissem]

Good evening

Wow, it is happening so fast.

I no longer had the sense of there being a self inside of me that is doing.

Is there really an inside and outside ?
What is this "me" in the sentence above?

Everything was just happening, it wasn't happening TO me. Just happening.

There is no you in any shape or form, no Edward, it never was, it will never be.

I sat for a few minutes enjoying the rain on my window, then went to the kitchen and did the breakfast dishes.

There is no you to sit down, there is just sitting happening.
Is there a me to which belongs the window?

Now, sitting her typing, there is still no sense of self anymore.

Yes, everything is happening, no doer.

I have felt on the verge of something for days, and I think I've just been pushed over the edge.

There is feeling, there is no you feeling, no you thinking. Is it seen clearly?

Go for a walk outside in nature, in a park and observe the flow of life and let me know how it is going on.

Nour

[Pachomius53]

Wrote a haiku to share after the afternoon meditation:

The chair where I sit
Rocks in the gentle spring breeze,
With no one in it.

Good evening.

[warissem]

Good morning

Yes, enjoy the new perspective.

Waiting for your insights

[Pachomius53]

Hello Nour,
I hope your day is going well.

Is there really an inside and outside ?

Until you asked this, I hadn't realized that even the "inside" has disappeared! No, there is no inside or outside. That's amazing!

What is this "me" in the sentence above?

Acchhh, I should have said THE window, not MY window. I was using the "my" in the conventional conversational sense, not in that there is an I to own the window. I don't know how to communicate without using the first-person conventions.

There is feeling, there is no you feeling, no you thinking. Is it seen clearly?

Yes, that is quite clear. Again, the first-person personal pronouns are only used in the conversational sense.

Go for a walk outside in nature, in a park and observe the flow of life and let me know how it is going on.

It was interesting, to say the least. Can't say that I feel one with everything, but that I feel like I and everything around me are simply processes of flowing energy. That doesn't quite say it, but that's as close as I can get. I feel like a process, part of the larger process going on all around me. I don't mean that to say that they are outside of me around me, but we are all a process. I don't think I'm being clear, I'm sorry. But this is all a bit disorienting. But in a good way.
Similar experience picking up groceries this morning. Again, it's hard to describe, but the fairly busy grocery store just didn't seem the same. I guess I'm still a little high from this shift in perception, but I felt "warmer" toward everyone, smiled and said hello a lot. Again, I didn't feel like we were all one, but that the people I saw were processes of energy, as was I. Separate, but not separate. Is that kind of clear?
I have to say I was afraid that on waking up this morning everything would go back to "normal." But it hasn't! How could something so profound be so simple? Life is much the same, but in a big way it is completely different.
Had lunch with a friend after the walk, and I so badly wanted to tell him what had happened, but I really didn't know quite how to express it in a way that he wouldn't think I was just delusional.
Thank you again for your time, and for your help in this. I look forward to hearing from you.

[warissem]

Good evening

You have done all the job already. Is there still seeking going on?

Is there a thinker?

Is there an experiencer?

Is there free will ?

Play with these and come back with your insights.

I wish the best for you

[Pachomius53]

Good day, Nour,

You have done all the job already. Is there still seeking going on?

Yes, the job is done! No more seeking, after all these years. Only life.

Is there a thinker?

No thinker, no feeler, no I, no self, just thought, sensation, life arising.

Is there an experiencer?

No. There is just life happening.

Is there free will ?

Free will? No, certainly not. There is no one to make decisions or think about actions. Everything is just happening.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[warissem]

Good evening Edward

The are the questions which are usually asked to end the dialog on this forum. Anyway you can contact me through email whenever you want.

I invite you to give a separate answer to each question.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Pachomius53]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, it’s so easy now to see that there never was any self, me or I. A very simple shift in perception showed that it was merely something in the mind, a thought, though a very persistent thought.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Wow! That’s a tough one. How it started I can’t say; it was there for as long as I can remember. It is the thought that you are a thing, a person, separate from everything outside your skin, a person that lives behind the eyes in the head, the person that sees, hears, feels, thinks, touches, does. It was certainly reinforced through teaching by parents and in school, especially the Catholic schools I attended, where it was emphasized that God made me, a special, unique individual.
However, now there is no sense of self. No feeling of a self. No sense of separation from everything “outside” the body. Indeed, no outside at all. Now it is just consciousness, awareness, a streaming flow of energy that is the same energy that animates everything. Feelings, thoughts, emotions arise and disappear.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels liberating to see this. It no longer feels that I am in control and have to control things, have to make decisions, etc. Of course, in a practical sense it seems that I make decisions, but that, too, in an illusion. It’s just the flow of life, part of the life that animates the entire universe. It hit harder home when I was looking out the back door at the chair on the patio where I did my meditation. The breeze was making the chair rock, even though there was no one in the chair. And it hit me hard: There never was anyone there!

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The last bit that pushed me over was when you pointed me to the video on honest looking. I watched that a couple of times, then I searched on the Liberation Unleashed YouTube channel for “Direct Observation” and came across the video on quotes about direct observation. I watched that, then I listened to it again during a half-hour meditation. When I opened my eyes, it was obvious that the sense of self was gone, that it never was there, that it had only been a consistent thought.

5) Describe decision,

Decision is when a person has the opportunity to choose between various options. But there is no one to choose, and no decision to be made. Life happens.

intention,

Again, there is no one to have an intention. It is simply a thought that passes through consciousness.

free will,

Since there is no I, there can be no free will, no one to have free will, no control over circumstances.

choice and control.

On a practical level, we exercise choice and control. Or maybe it’s more accurate to say that we seem to exercise choice and control. But reality is all of a piece, life energy flowing, and we have no real choice or control.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

I don’t know how it works! But life flows, energy vibrates and gives the appearance of “1,000 things.” But there is only one thing, energy or life, and it is that vibration of energy, that flow of life that causes everything to happen. I was bullied as a child, and that seemingly influences my behavior in ways that I’m not even aware of. I may think I react to something freely, but in actuality it’s a consequence of being bullied as a child. And so with the people who bullied me: they were only reacting to their own circumstances. In actuality, it was all merely life happening. None of us chooses freely.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There are two levels to this question. On a practical, social level, I have to be responsible for my actions. If I cause an accident while driving there may be serious consequences, and I would take those seriously. However, in reality, life happens. Geez, that sounds so wishy-washy. But it has to be. Using the example of being bullied, if someone offends me, and I lash out, verbally or physically, I am responsible for that to all appearances. But in actuality, it is merely part of a continuum. Someone may say, then, “Well, does that mean you can do whatever you want?” I would say, “There is no one to want, no one to do any action. It’s just life happening.” Still society has to go on. But it’s easy now to see that the people I see every day (if there were an I to see) are no more responsible than am I. It gives life an easier feeling, if you know what I mean. No need to get angry, no need to take offense. That doesn’t mean I’ll never be angry or take offense again, though. But there is no need to.

6) Anything to add?

There’s a lot to add, and I may well email you. But I want to say that reading “Gateless Gatecrashers” and having these discussions here have been immensely helpful. I don’t know that I would have clearly seen without it. Never underestimate the value of the work you do. Thank you.

[warissem]

Good evening

Glad to read your answers. I will invite other guides to see them, they may have further questions for you. Be patient.

Best for you