Unknowing

[aloracalorac]

Now, after this exercise, have you seen that there is no doer?

No.

Speaking : say "I" loudly and look if there is someone saying it?
is there a you, someone choosing the words to be said?

I don't know. I followed your instruction and said "I" several times. It seems that I chose to follow your instruction. It seems that I could have ignored it.

What is this "I" believing thoughts?

I don't know. It seems that I can choose whether or not to believe a thought.

Can a thought believe another thought?

No.

You have done the exercise about thoughts : do thoughts belong to you ?

No. They often feel that they belong to me, but when I stop and look, it is clear that they don't.

Go back to the hand exercise and SEE if thoughts are really a trigger for actions.

Yes. I will do that. I think that I need to do the exercise many times over several days.

You are speaking about a "me" which does not change : does this "me" exist in direct experience?

As I said previously, "The sense of me does not seem to be a thought. If I close my eyes, relax, and get into a meditative state, I can sometimes ignore my thoughts, but I still exist. I exist between my thoughts. That sense of self is not mediated by any of the five senses nor by thought, but it exists."

Do you see that past and future are only in thoughts (memories and expectations) ?

Yes

Does being aware need a me, a you, an I, a story ?

No. Instead of saying, "I am aware," I could say, "there is a sense of existence here."

These are good questions to LOOK AT. I am waiting the answers for them.
take your time to ponder on the questions.

I need more time to ponder these questions and the other questions you ask. I also need time to repeat the hand exercise. In the beginning of this dialog, you said "Please check in the forum once a day to post your answers or to find out my posts." I'm not sure if that means that I am expected to answer each day. Please give me two or three days to respond to your next post.

Thank you again for this continuing dialog.

[warissem]

Good morning

No. Instead of saying, "I am aware," I could say, "there is a sense of existence here."

What is the difference between "I am aware" and the "sense of existence"?
Is the sense of existence something that comes and goes?
Does the sense of existence belong to you?

I see that you are going to thoughts in your answers. You need to be more familiar with looking at direct experience. That's why I invite you to go back to all the exercises I have given to you and do them again.

Take your time (2 or 3 days or more) to give answers to the above questions and the questions of the previous post. There is no urge.
About checking here once a day, it is a convenience.The most important is not to give answers because you had to, it is to LOOK AT the questions and SEE the answers with 100 % certainty. The goal is to SEE through the illusion,not answering questions like in an exam. Going to the mind does not help to see through the illusion of a separate self because the illusion is in thoughts. In direct experience, there is no separation and it is "our" daily experience. Take all your time to do the exercises, to look at the questions, ponder on each question, LOOK and SEE. It is an experiential investigation going on here, where you are.

Best for you

[aloracalorac]

Take your time (2 or 3 days or more) to give answers to the above questions and the questions of the previous post. There is no urge.

Speaking : say "I" loudly and look if there is someone saying it?
is there a you, someone choosing the words to be said?

No.

What is this "I" believing thoughts?

There is no "I" believing thoughts. The belief in a thought is just another thought.

You have done the exercise about thoughts : do thoughts belong to you ?

No.

Go back to the hand exercise and SEE if thoughts are really a trigger for actions.

They are not.

What is the difference between "I am aware" and the "sense of existence"?

The sentence "I am aware" is a grammatical construction like "I am cold." It doesn't mean that there is an "I" here.

Is the sense of existence something that comes and goes?

The awareness of existence comes and goes. When I am concentrating on a task, there is no awareness of existence, but if I stop to look, existence is always here.

Does the sense of existence belong to you?

No.

I see now that no "me" exists in direct experience. No matter how long I look, it will not be found it because it doesn't exist. Here's where there is still uncertainty: Is there a "knowingness" or "beingness" or "awareness" which precedes the five senses and thoughts? If so, what is its nature?

[warissem]

Good morning

I see now that no "me" exists in direct experience. No matter how long I look, it will not be found it because it doesn't exist.

Is it seen for sure that the person called (put your name here) does not exist and has never existed?
Is it seen that the one who is seeking has never existed?
Is it seen that there is no "I", no you seeing "no me" as it is said above?

Here's where there is still uncertainty: Is there a "knowingness" or "beingness" or "awareness" which precedes the five senses and thoughts? If so, what is its nature?

Giving answers to these questions is only more accumulated knowledge, and this is of no help to see through the illusion of a separate self. I invite you to see through this "I" which asks questions and wants to know. Is there awareness of these questions right here right now?
Is there awareness of being right here right now?
Being, knowing or being aware are not something to achieve. It is what is here already, this aliveness, this ordinary awareness, this knowing presence of day to day life. There is no more to it. It does not need concepts to be here, it is here without you, without me.

Best for you

[aloracalorac]

Is it seen for sure that the person called (put your name here) does not exist and has never existed?

This person does not exist in direct experience, no separate self here. This person exists as a concept, a useful concept. This perspn's name is on my driver's license. My children refer to this person as "Dad."

Is it seen that the one who is seeking has never existed?

Yes

Is it seen that there is no "I", no you seeing "no me" as it is said above?

Yes

[warissem]

Hi alora

Glad to read your answers.

Is there still seeking?
If so, what is missing ?
Let me know if there are any lasting doubts about this stuff.
Let me know when you are ready for the final questions.

I wish you the best.

[aloracalorac]

Is there still seeking?
If so, what is missing ?

No seeking. I have not completely woken up yet (whatever that means), but it will happen when it happens. No doer here.

Let me know if there are any lasting doubts about this stuff.
Let me know when you are ready for the final questions.

No lasting doubts about this stuff. My goal at LU was to see through the illusion of the separate self. That goal has been achieved. I'm ready for the final questions.

Thank you again and again and again!

[warissem]

Good morning

Thanks for your answers. Here are the check point questions, ponder on each one of them and give answers through direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Best for you

[aloracalorac]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. No.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self is the illusion that there is a person here; moreover, this person can make things happen and make choices. In addition, this person is separate from the forces of nature.
I don't know from experience when it started. It was who I took myself to be.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It doesn't yet feel as liberating as I expected it to. Although all doubt has vanished, I often forget or overlook the fact that there is no separate self here. It's like looking at the illusion of water in the desert knowing it's illusionary, yet hoping it will quench your thirst. I suspect that my habitual way of thinking and behaving will dissipate over time. I also know that there is no "I" that can do anything to quicken the process, although doing may occur.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I don't know. In addition to this dialog, I also read a book and spoke to some awakened beings.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

It may feel as if an "I" is making decisions, exercising free will, and controlling things, but I know that no such "I" exists.
I will always choose chocolate over vanilla, but that choice is determined by the fact that I strongly prefer chocolate, and that preference was not my choice. I don't know why I prefer chocolate and don't need to know. I may "choose" to take the train, rather than the bus, but that "choice" is determined by circumstance.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

Nothing makes things happen; the universe evolves as it does. For example, I just interrupted my writing to get an apple. That action was a response to an urge which I didn't choose.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I don't understand the question. Does "responsibility" mean ability to respond? If there is some deeper meaning to "responsible," I don't see it. In our household, I am "responsible" for taking out the trash; my wife is "responsible" for doing the laundry.

6) Anything to add?

No, except "Thank you."

[warissem]

Good evening

Have you seen for sure that there is no separate self in any shape or form ?

What is seeing these words on the screen?

Best for you

[aloracalorac]

Have you seen for sure that there is no separate self in any shape or form ?

There is no separate self in any shape or form. This statement has been seen surely with no doubt.

What is seeing these words on the screen?

The question is ill-formed because it assumes that something is seeing. No thing is seeing. There is seeing here. "Words" and "screen" are concepts.

[warissem]

Hi

I will invite other guides to look at your thread. They could have further questions. Be patient.

I wish the best for you

Nour

[warissem]

Hi

A guide is asking to be clearer about this :" What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience".

The webster's dictionary gives this for responsibility :

1 : the quality or state of being responsible: such as
a : moral, legal, or mental accountability
b : RELIABILITY, TRUSTWORTHINESS

2: something for which one is responsible : taking care of a child, assuring a duty, ...

Best for you

[aloracalorac]

A guide is asking to be clearer about this :" What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience".

The webster's dictionary gives this for responsibility :

1 : the quality or state of being responsible: such as
a : moral, legal, or mental accountability
b : RELIABILITY, TRUSTWORTHINESS

2: something for which one is responsible : taking care of a child, assuring a duty, ...

There is no responsibility in direct experience and no one who could be responsible. Events just happen with no doer. If someone asked me this question in a different context, I might answer, “I am responsible for taking out the trash” meaning that I am accountable for that duty which I have voluntarily assumed. (Definitions 1a and 2)