Got stuck in tiger's mouth

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

If there is nothing “besides what is seen, heard, or sensed that is not a thought” where is the “one to experience anything outside of the thoughts”? 

There is no one, it’s just another thought

Is the “self” entity now replaced by “no self” entity, an experiencer with “no experiencer”/just thinker/just observer?

I can’t tell if something is replaced, it was and is just thought

Can a thought experience a thought or anything else?

There has always been thought about experience. I’ve never experienced anything without thoughts.

Are you identifying “yourself” as experience or with experience?

Neither of those. There’s no me, just thoughts about the experience

What’s here that is not a thought?

THIS?

How is THIS is not a thought? Anything that is seen, heard, sensed has a label and separate. There is no way to experience THIS without being separate from it. Like Deep sleep, I don’t experience that because I’m not there, but anything else either dreaming or waking up is experienced because there “I” am. And this “I” is just a thought.

It doesn't happen through thinking but by sitting quietly and midfully. There are various techniques for meditatiing which final goal is to see that there is more to this than thought - aka the gap between thoughts. You can try focusing on the breath or another object, or no object at all. There are a ton of techniques - pick one that works for you and stay with it for days or even years. The more you do it the more you see it - noticing vs thinking.

I've tried many and had some deep, thoughtless experiences, but 'I' wasn’t there. I only knew because, afterward, I looked at the time and realized an hour had passed, which I couldn’t perceive while 'I' and thoughts were absent.

What makes it subjective???

Layers of thoughts. Can anyone experience this world beyond the filter of their thoughts and still remain? Is there truly an objective experience? Even those who claim to have pure experience still have subjective experiences—just not personal ones. The illusion persists because if the illusion comes to an end, what can be called clinical death will take place. So, if we give up one illusion, we will always replace it with another.

This can create the illusion that our subjective perspective is all-encompassing, as if it is the only reality that exists. This idea is reinforced by the fact that we have no direct access to anyone else's subjective experience.

Are there others in DE? How do you know there’s anyone else?

However, there is a deeper reality that exists beyond the limitations of individual perspective.

What’s the proof of that in direct experience?

Whether there’s another reality or not is not important to me. Even if there is, we can’t access it. I also don’t subscribe to solipsism, as I find it one of the most absurd ideas out there. In what sense would the world be created 'by one’s consciousness'? If there’s a part of one’s consciousness generating the world, over which one has no control or knowledge, how is it ‘theirs’ at all? I place no value on my thoughts or what they form regarding what is true, false, or how the world operates.
If we’re honest with our definitions, it may* be possible that there is an external world that is fundamentally different from reality as we experience it. But once again, this belief brings nothing of value—it doesn’t offer new information or impact reality in any way—making it ultimately worthless.

Can you decide not to breathe right now? Is that your decision? Are you the thinker of that thought?

Can I choose to let go and accept the emptiness of things? If I can sit with raw sensations, recognize thoughts for what they are, and let go, then I could also choose to stop breathing (at least for a short while). Isn’t that clear?

“I” exists? Where? Thoughts are there for sure but where is “I”?

“I” exists in thoughts.

What is that “I” which inquires into validity of thoughts???

The same thing that you are telling it to let go, or sit with sensations.

Are you mistaking language for reality again?

Maybe you can be clearer about who you are talking to or asking exactly to do this inquiry: "Rather than accepting thoughts as facts, inquire into their validity"

Are you mistaking language for reality again?

I don’t know what is reality

When thoughts are about what is right here right now, there are about DE – part of the flow. When thoughts are about previous experience, old trauma, and fictitious characters taken seriously, they become a nuisance, a stick in the wheel.

Isn’t even thought about old trauma right here right now? How can there be anything that is not right here right now? Even pas and futures are only thoughts that are here right now.

There is no one noticing, there are only thoughts self-correcting around experience… Is that not clear?

This is clear

When the grip on needing to define or protect a specific identity is released, life becomes less about what we are (and what we are not) and more about being itself. Just experiencing, moment by moment, without the usual layers of judgment or self-consciousness.
This perspective doesn’t require any belief system—it’s more about observing and experiencing what’s here, right now, with curiosity and openness.

How does this perspective feel for you? Does it bring up curiosity or maybe more questions?

This is the paragraph that resonates with me right now. My takeaway is to stop trying to understand, make sense of, practice, or analyze direct experience for any goal or purpose. Trying to find new concepts, new ideas, new thoughts, and new beliefs or change anything. Just live moment by moment and abandon the illusion/hope of finding clarity, grasping it intellectually, or making it better. As you’ve said before: 'This isn’t a process to make things easier for you so you can live happily ever after.'

Thank you,
Shafigh

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

Whether there’s another reality or not is not important to me. Even if there is, we can’t access it.

Yes, you can it’s called DE :)

There has always been thought about experience. I’ve never experienced anything without thoughts.

What are you that "has never experienced anything without thought"? Thought? Can thought experience anything? How?
So what about the experience of chocolate??? The rich deep taste right now? Does that need thought to happen?

How is THIS is not a thought? Anything that is seen, heard, sensed has a label and separate. There is no way to experience THIS without being separate from it. Like Deep sleep, I don’t experience that because I’m not there, but anything else either dreaming or waking up is experienced because there “I” am. And this “I” is just a thought.

THIS is actually a pointing word that makes you look at DE right now. If you take it at a label value it becomes an idea, that you can talk about till you are blue in the face and never actually see where I’m pointing with it. "Deep sleep" is a story about a missing narrative not about missing experience. How is it known that there was a gap in experience (or it is assumed)? If all, that there is, is experiencing/happening, how is no experience registered? Only because thought say so? There is more to experience than thought. What is “not there in deep sleep”? How would you describe deep sleep if you haven’t experienced it? What makes it different from just an abstraction?
You keep saying “thought this and thought that” (like a learned answer) but then you identify with it (excuse my language). Of course there is no one to identify as anything, just a thought that claims that it can do stuff – to experience stuff, to know stuff, etc. That thought is erroneous and has to be checked (vs DE), otherwise other thoughts stick to it. In every sentence you are saying “I experience this and that” and I don’t think it is just language. You keep pointing back at me, but there is a difference between using pronouns as language (I have to pint somehow) and actually “believing” this, that shows in the way you express yourself. So enough philosophy, please stop and look! I’m not testing your knowledge here with all of these questions or trying to create new beliefs – these are pointers. Every time I say “What (not who) is there? “ I don’t want you to just spit out the answer (by now you should know all the “right” answers), but to actually spend time with that looking. Make it a koan if need be. So it’s not just about seeing there is nothing, it’s also about seeing what IS there. It’s also about soaking up that realisation leading to transformation. The shift does not happen by intellectually getting it but by looking. And also not by not finding anything (the interpretation) but by looking/being.
This is not a philosophical debate and I’m sorry if you have taken it like that. If I encourage you to stay with sensations it is because thoughts are constantly present in your experience to a point that you can’t even see the gap between them.

So basically you came up with this nihilistic story so you don’t have to look. That story is a distraction, I hope one day you will see this.

There is resistance to everything I say but you are still here, even with my bad pointing, because on some level you do realise that this is not right. Your sarcasm is nothing but unproductive. If you see all of it so clearly, then why is there still hopelessness and desperation. And to say it’s part of what is happening, is nothing but a thought about …layered on top - so in a way bypassing what has to be done – the actionless action.

Contemplate on this and you still want to be guided I would expect more willingness to look and actually a desire to see where I am leading you with this even if it doesn’t make any sense at the moment. If not, then you have all the tools in the box, so you can definitely do this on your own. Or find a better guide…
Love
Rali