That there is just awareness aware of itself

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
nicefello
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:59 am

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby nicefello » Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:46 pm

Hi Rali its nice to hear from you too :)
Do you need to know anything in order to be?

no THIS is just here. happening. oh yes its so simple
Are you doing anything in order to be?

no being is here already. prior to my idea of it or how to do it
Do you need to do anything in order to be?

I'm having the thought that I'm losing confidence in my ability to look and answer from experience. not sure if im fabricating the answer based on my idea of how it is. going to speech, i get caught up in my idea of the experience. i dont know how to use the words to answer without losing touch with the immediacy. I have to leave for work now but I'll keep these questions in mind and answer later today. Thank you very much Rali
Do you need to hold on to being, because it can slip away? Or it can be taken away?


i'd like to give a quick response to this. when i look here, i dont see it slipping away. and im also having a story come up about some fear of the mundane or wasting time that drives the impulse to try to realize something

User avatar
nicefello
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:59 am

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby nicefello » Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:25 am

Do you need to know anything in order to be?
no
Are you doing anything in order to be?
no
Do you need to do anything in order to be?
no its just here
Do you need to hold on to being, because it can slip away? Or it can be taken away?
i can feel this is at the heart of my predicament. and im noticing some resistance to answering. its like i dont want to know the answer. but okay i should stay with the direct looking..
being is here and theres a softness and openness and something relaxed about it. loose. theres nothing in DE that suggests that it can or cannot slip away. i would have to make some abstract projection to answer what could happen to it. I just know that its here and its not something I am making happen.
But tell me, can THIS be any different than what it is NOW?
no, its just how it is. complete

User avatar
nicefello
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:59 am

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby nicefello » Fri Sep 15, 2023 5:18 am

As for your earlier questions, I haven't really been able to find the sensations connected to the wanting. The quality of the wanting has been continually changing and its hard for me to associate a particular sensation with it. I did, though,just have some more information come up around the mechanism for wanting. after answering your questions earlier, I've been more at ease and seeing whats here.

...and then the thoughts come and say that this seeing will wear off and that I have to make the inquiry into some strategy or practice for the future. and thats what happened before and I tried to make it into a practice and to be persistent in looking. and the questions got stale. and in the past couple months, I've been looking back at older posts from the rest of this thread to get new questions to ask myself. and try to familiarize myself with the process. sort of making it into a practice or strategy again. and then that gets stale the questions dont do anything anymore so then i read some other threads and then the same thing happens again. and so i thought that it would probably help to engage with someone and asked for your help...

and tonight the thing i noticed about the mechanism for wanting is that the thinking mind appears to want to stay engaged with something. to have a meaningful job to work on. and it was apparent that the thinking had conceived this spiritual-type path as the most meaningful job to work on. to give purpose. i had the feeling this was the impulse behind the need for practice and strategizing.

I remember you describing to me how thought itself is a sense that is directly experienced but not its content or what its about. Is that to say that the mental noise or image of the thought is DE but without any meaning assigned to it? I'm looking for the DE of thought but its a subtle distinction and im still processing the meaning of the verbal thoughts.

Thank you very much Rali

User avatar
poppyseed
Posts: 1697
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 5:28 pm
Location: South Africa
Contact:

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby poppyseed » Fri Sep 15, 2023 9:43 am

Hi Jackie
I'm having the thought that I'm losing confidence in my ability to look and answer from experience. not sure if im fabricating the answer based on my idea of how it is. going to speech, i get caught up in my idea of the experience. i dont know how to use the words to answer without losing touch with the immediacy.
LOOKING is natural and “you” can't lose it. What you are reporting are two sets of thoughts – one of old conditioning vs the new (coming from DE). The only way the new would prevail over the old if content is checked with DE.
Do you need to hold on to being, because it can slip away? Or it can be taken away?
i can feel this is at the heart of my predicament. and im noticing some resistance to answering. its like i dont want to know the answer. but okay i should stay with the direct looking..
being is here and theres a softness and openness and something relaxed about it. loose. theres nothing in DE that suggests that it can or cannot slip away. i would have to make some abstract projection to answer what could happen to it. I just know that its here and its not something I am making happen.
It seems like you are confusing states (e.g. openness, softness, relaxation) with being/THIS/whatever is happening. THIS comes in many “shapes”, including “being lost in thought”, anxious, tightness etc.
How is it possible to "maintain" something when you are present? Present moment is just one present moment, and has anything to do with a duration of a certain state. The minute you start describing the experience (using labels), it “starts” appearing in dichotomous/opposing states – relaxed vs anxious, open vs tight/closed, soft vs hard etc. Is there a difference between these without labels? There are still sensations, thoughts, seeing… - THIS. Only characterising it as “good” and “bad”, ‘right and “wrong” creates a story of a lack. Is there a "wrong" THIS? There is a story about trying to be in control and not succeeding and the feelings of guilt and shame that arise with the failure. It is interesting to watch how all this works, how thoughts of lacking and wanting create a ripple of sensations, and how you can’t control any of it. Sensations arise; take a look at them. Which one of them is the sensation of “being in or out of control” of DE? Can you pinpoint it? What is that sensation without the label?
...and then the thoughts come and say that this seeing will wear off and that I have to make the inquiry into some strategy or practice for the future. and thats what happened before and I tried to make it into a practice and to be persistent in looking. and the questions got stale. and in the past couple months, I've been looking back at older posts from the rest of this thread to get new questions to ask myself. and try to familiarize myself with the process. sort of making it into a practice or strategy again. and then that gets stale the questions dont do anything anymore so then i read some other threads and then the same thing happens again. and so i thought that it would probably help to engage with someone and asked for your help...
You don’t need a magic question, just question whatever belief appears as troublesome, check its truthfulness.
and tonight the thing i noticed about the mechanism for wanting is that the thinking mind appears to want to stay engaged with something. to have a meaningful job to work on. and it was apparent that the thinking had conceived this spiritual-type path as the most meaningful job to work on. to give purpose. i had the feeling this was the impulse behind the need for practice and strategizing.
Yes! This is its job – the creation of meaning. But remember, meaning exists only in thought content…Meaning is based on concepts and the link between these concepts. Without labels/concepts can there be meaning? Meaning is empty :)
I remember you describing to me how thought itself is a sense that is directly experienced but not its content or what its about. Is that to say that the mental noise or image of the thought is DE but without any meaning assigned to it? I'm looking for the DE of thought but its a subtle distinction and im still processing the meaning of the verbal thoughts.
Yes! Thought content is empty and cannot be experienced directly (remember the apple example). There are sensations, seeing, hearing, smelling, and tasting, and thinking comes along trying to give them meaning. Mental images are like snapshots (quite inaccurate) of DE, very similar to concepts. Compare the actual eating of chocolate vs imagining eating one and you'll see what I'm talking about. Thought says that we can hear and see them but have you actually ever heard your thoughts? Just like mental images, are they the actual object or just thoughts about the object?

What you might find interesting for further exploring is the Ten Fetters. There are a lot of groups that help with that. I think I gave you the links. The videos are quite a nice summary: https://www.simplytheseen.com/videos-and-links.html
I find it a good way to inspect beliefs in a structured way. I try to cover most important beliefs with my guiding, but it’s a good reference of what else can be explored. They say that LU inquiry covers the first 3 and some guides actively point only to these, but for me it covers all of them if you question everything. And I try guiding a bit further.

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

User avatar
nicefello
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:59 am

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby nicefello » Fri Sep 15, 2023 4:42 pm

Thank you for the feedback Rali
How is it possible to "maintain" something when you are present?
its just happening and the notion of sustaining is a thought that doesn't refer to anything in DE.
Is there a difference between these without labels?
Right now I feel open. I don't know what that label refers to in DE. maybe a lack of tension. and I dont know how to answer the question of whether 'there is a difference between open and closed without labels' without imagining what closed might feel like and comparing them intellectually. I don't know how I could check the difference in DE since only one could be present. and i think i understand your point about the meaning I'm assigning to the experience by labeling and reacting to that meaning. I have to go now but I'll see if i can experience it and report back

Thank you!

User avatar
nicefello
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:59 am

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby nicefello » Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:13 pm

Is there a "wrong" THIS?
no, its just whats here and a value judgement is superimposed on it. but maybe thats a mental model too. im looking at DE again to try to check... okay, so it is a mental model that is being constructed with thought and the experience of noticing it is not a "wrong" this. the thought is coming that it can only be like this in this moment and somehow that thought matches with DE. I was feeling like it was difficult to try to see and convey what was happening. and now I am just noticing that something is being written and im not sure if it checks out or not but i know that its included in THIS and there is nothing wrong with this moment.

User avatar
nicefello
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:59 am

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby nicefello » Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:39 pm

Thank you for helping me to see the simplicity of my story of failing to have control and frustration arising. that doesn't sound like a problem. and i have the wish arising to be able to recognize those stories as such. and i cannot control that.
Which one of them is the sensation of “being in or out of control” of DE? Can you pinpoint it?

okay im taking an inventory of what sensations are here.. I'm having the thought that I'm out of control of DE but im not seeing a link to sensation. theres spaciousness, tingling, tension, physical pressure but i can't find anything that corresponds to your question.
What is that sensation without the label?
ill answer this in terms of the tension in my neck. without the label, its neutral. it felt more just like physical contact or pressure. and as i looked into it more without my idea about it, its characteristics began to dissappear and then i didnt know what is was or if it was anything at all.

User avatar
nicefello
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:59 am

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby nicefello » Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:09 pm

Without labels/concepts can there be meaning?
no theres just the fact of what is here. value judgment and meaning is projected on with labeling. and im seeing that as applied to thought now. this thinking is just being known as it appears and without the weight of meaning. without reaching to the concept that they are referring to. so there is no 'wrong' thought. In refuting the meaning of my thoughts and writing, im also having the thought that theres not really a basis for what im saying so i cant really stand by it or confirm that what im saying is refering to anything true besides the fact that these words and thoughts are just here.
Thought says that we can hear and see them but have you actually ever heard your thoughts?
Just like mental images, are they the actual object or just thoughts about the object?
in DE, thoughts are being known. but my characterizing the knowing as hearing is a label. maybe ill try with an image... okay I had the image come up of a persons face. and the knowing of that thought was not a direct experience of seeing. there is just the idea of the image of the face but no actual seeing the face

Thank you for the link, I'll check out the videos.
I really appreciate the simplicity and directness of your guiding

User avatar
poppyseed
Posts: 1697
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 5:28 pm
Location: South Africa
Contact:

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby poppyseed » Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:55 am

Hi Jackie
no, its just whats here and a value judgement is superimposed on it. but maybe thats a mental model too. im looking at DE again to try to check... okay, so it is a mental model that is being constructed with thought and the experience of noticing it is not a "wrong" this. the thought is coming that it can only be like this in this moment and somehow that thought matches with DE. I was feeling like it was difficult to try to see and convey what was happening. and now I am just noticing that something is being written and im not sure if it checks out or not but i know that its included in THIS and there is nothing wrong with this moment.
Are ”what is here” and “a value judgement is superimposed on it” two separate things or only thought post factum builds a relationship between the two concepts?
Looking at the story in general is kind of pointless unless it is used for communication. The story is empty – THIS cannot be grasped and explained, period. So no matter how close the story comes to DE it is still not it. The story changes all the time. So the best advice is to not hold on to anything. When beliefs start falling, when certainty is no longer there, it may be scary and painful, but all of this is part of the cleaning-up process. Bring attention to the here and now, notice what is happening, rest in being, and, at the same time, question all beliefs— one by one. See their emptiness.
ill answer this in terms of the tension in my neck. without the label, its neutral. it felt more just like physical contact or pressure. and as i looked into it more without my idea about it, its characteristics began to dissappear and then i didnt know what is was or if it was anything at all.
Ok, so there are sensations present but what suggests that these sensations are linked to the thought “I’m out of control”? Is there an arrow pointing to the sensation, or some kind of visual link (like a tie or a chain)? That is what thought does – conceptualizing “details” of THIS, and then finding relationships among them. But does THIS have parts? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content? If we don’t have labels separating things and bringing stuff into existence, what could possibly be the relationship about? Are there separate seeing, feeling, thinking…? Where are the borders that outline them and make them separate?
I would say any experience is “neutral” without the label because there is no agency that serves as a refence point - “good” or “bad” for whom? These are just conditioned labels, right?
In refuting the meaning of my thoughts and writing, im also having the thought that theres not really a basis for what im saying so i cant really stand by it or confirm that what im saying is refering to anything true besides the fact that these words and thoughts are just here.
Exactly! The journey continues, the story carries on, but thoughts have been seen to be thoughts. The story is no longer solid, true, or real.
So keep on looking. Keep noticing, keep asking questions. Keep finding silence, being, and presence, and rest in them. All you need is already here. Trust that life is unfolding by itself and that there is no other way than this. So keep on questioning if what you know is true and rest in being.
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

User avatar
nicefello
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:59 am

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby nicefello » Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:04 am

Thank you for the response Rali. we had a day long sit today and I didn’t have much time to explore your questions so I’ll reply tomorrow

User avatar
nicefello
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:59 am

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby nicefello » Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:37 pm

Are ”what is here” and “a value judgement is superimposed on it” two separate things or only thought post factum builds a relationship between the two concepts?
right now I have a judgement that something is wrong or that i dont like about my experience. and im asking myself if there is a separation between what is here and that judgement of it or if theres any boundary between what is here and the judgement.. theres no division anywhere. THIS is whole. the judgement is a thought that is not outside of what is happening
Ok, so there are sensations present but what suggests that these sensations are linked to the thought “I’m out of control”? Is there an arrow pointing to the sensation, or some kind of visual link (like a tie or a chain)?
I'm noticing some restlessness and it feels related to an energetic feeling in my body so I'll check this out.. what suggests the link? when i look, theres nothing that directly indicates the relationship. its just a thought describing it as such.
But does THIS have parts?

no it is whole and no boundaries can be seen.
Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content?

there is just what is here now. how things affect each other is thought content. it takes some imagination.
If we don’t have labels separating things and bringing stuff into existence, what could possibly be the relationship about?
no relationship
Are there separate seeing, feeling, thinking…? Where are the borders that outline them and make them separate?
no separation. no control. just a stream of wholeness

Thank you Rali

User avatar
poppyseed
Posts: 1697
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 5:28 pm
Location: South Africa
Contact:

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby poppyseed » Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:23 pm

Hi Jackie
It is really my pleasure! Is there anything else that you want to explore?
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

User avatar
nicefello
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:59 am

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby nicefello » Wed Sep 20, 2023 3:21 pm

How to question all beliefs one by one? I don't know if that means to question the content of the thought or something more direct. A lot of my thoughts/beliefs are not referring to any thing in DE so I don't know how to question it by looking. I can think of reasons why its not necessarily true but thats like coming up with a different story instead of checking DE.

User avatar
poppyseed
Posts: 1697
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 5:28 pm
Location: South Africa
Contact:

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby poppyseed » Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:16 pm

Hi Jackie
How to question all beliefs one by one? I don't know if that means to question the content of the thought or something more direct. A lot of my thoughts/beliefs are not referring to any thing in DE so I don't know how to question it by looking. I can think of reasons why its not necessarily true but thats like coming up with a different story instead of checking DE.
Well, the easiest is to start with beliefs about suffering, how THIS should be better, not the way it is. Whatever shows just compare it to what is observed through the senses (DE), see through the story. It basically checking for any remnants of old conditioning and patterns that is not in accordance with DE. Fear and resistance are a good tool for discovering these.

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

User avatar
nicefello
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:59 am

Re: That there is just awareness aware of itself

Postby nicefello » Thu Sep 21, 2023 4:15 pm

Okay thank you for the guidance Rali


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests