Imagine's line

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imagine
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby imagine » Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:16 pm

Can it be known how tall the body is?

It cannot be known, the height of the body is only a concept.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No weight, no volume.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Shapeless, formless sensations...

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No boundaries since body does not exist.

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

Just space with no center and no circumference.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

To the reflection I see in the mirror or in the photos but it has nothing common with how the "body" is felt and perceived.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Depends on the circumstances - sensations or nothing at all.

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warissem
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby warissem » Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:08 pm

Hi

Good observations. There is a comment on this :
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No boundaries since body does not exist.
We cannot say the body does not exist but it does not exist as we think it is. You said "no boundaries since the body does not exist" : this answer seems to be given through logical thinking. I invite you to close your eyes and look at the sensation "body chair". Are there two sensations ? Is there a boundary between the butt and the chair ? Is there a you knowing the sensations?

Warissem

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imagine
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby imagine » Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:58 am

Are there two sensations ? Is there a boundary between the butt and the chair ? Is there a you knowing the sensations?
There is only one sensation - of what I could label "body/chair" if I would like to communicate it. There is no "me" knowing the sensation, there is only sensation.

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warissem
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby warissem » Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:41 pm

Good evening

You are doing a good job. As I promised to you, I invited you to investigate choice and decision making.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Best for you

Warissem

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imagine
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby imagine » Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:20 pm

How is the movement controlled?

No idea! It just happens.

Does a thought control it?

Definitely not.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Controller is "missing". No controlled has been found.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

It just happens out of nowhere!

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Hand is chosen itself. No idea regarding the source of the preference. Complete blankness.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Absolutely not.


Actually, when doing this exercise I started laughing. We think we CONTROL our lives and we don't even have an idea WHO/WHAT decides when and how to turn "our" hands. Hilarious!

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warissem
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby warissem » Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:06 pm

Hi

Are you 100 % sure that there is no you, no separate self in any shape or form ?

Are you still seeking ?

What is missing ?

Warissem

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imagine
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby imagine » Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:06 pm

Are you 100 % sure that there is no you, no separate self in any shape or form ?

None can be found.

Are you still seeking ?

Who would seek for something that cannot be found?

What is missing ?

I am not exactly sure what is meant by this question.

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warissem
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby warissem » Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:31 am

Good morning

Thanks for the answers.

What is missing ? I mean if there is something left, feel free to discuss it here.

How does it feel now after seeing that there is no separate self driving life ?

Is there separate self in other people ?

Best for you

Warissem

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imagine
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby imagine » Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:57 pm

What is missing ? I mean if there is something left, feel free to discuss it here.

Thank you for guiding me through this process. It is clear that no 'me' can be found anywhere.

How does it feel now after seeing that there is no separate self driving life ?

Life is surprisingly fresh! It is like being surprised with what is going on, the experience is new all the time, even when doing the "same" things as I used to do before. My senses are also kind of "enhanced", when eating, walking, etc. as if some veil is being removed...

Is there separate self in other people ?

No, it is a little bit strange to talk about other people but I think I will have to get used to it since it is needed for communication.

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warissem
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby warissem » Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:08 pm

Good evening

It is a real pleasure to read your answers. We are used to pose some questions to finalise the dialog and here they are : elaborate on each of them.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Best for you

Warissem

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imagine
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby imagine » Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:05 pm

Hello warissem,
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No separate entity/self/me/I can be found, it's existence was thought created and maintained until shedding light on it.

Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

Constant dissatisfaction, need to "improve" things, self, others. Lost in thought-dramas and stories. The main difference is being much more in the present, thoughts lose their grip since seens as mere 'dead' labels for the experience of life.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

Sometimes it is pure astonishment at what effort is needed to perpetually re-create and maintained the sense of self on a 'personal' and 'collective' level in our culture. Also, a realization that there are no 'fixes' for illusory things...

What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

One evening, I was drinking a fresh ginger-rosemary tea and the sensations have been strongly noticed & observed. Suddenly, a realization dawned that the whole obsession with free-will question is nonsense since there is nothing what could have free will and also many questions are still dropping. SO much "knowledge" is illusory-self centered.
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?

There is nobody who would decide, choose, intent, have free will and control. The "decision" is seen only after the "decision" has been made and the thought labelled it as "decision". There is no way thought could "trace" the reason for the given decision "all the way back". What makes things happen and how things work? It's a mystery and it's a huge huge relief to admit and realize that. Thought creates illusory questions based on illusory assumptions.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

The notion of responsibility is tied to the illusions of "my"-self vs "other"-self, "lower"-self vs "higher"-self, etc.

Anything to add?

Once again, thank you very much for providing the pointers.

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warissem
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby warissem » Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:43 pm

Hi

Thanks for your answers. I'll submit this dialog to other guides if they have questions for you.

Best for you

Warissem

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imagine
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby imagine » Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:49 pm

Thanks for your answers. I'll submit this dialog to other guides if they have questions for you.

You're welcome. Thanks.

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warissem
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby warissem » Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:34 am

Good morning

You will be invited in LU groups on facebook. If you have questions about this stuff, you can discuss them in the groups or you can message me here on the forum.

Wish you all the best

Warissem

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imagine
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Re: Imagine's line

Postby imagine » Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:08 am

Hello warissem,

thank you very much.

Warm greetings.


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