Guideless Guide

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vinceschubert
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Re: Guideless Guide

Postby vinceschubert » Wed May 26, 2021 3:55 am

G'day Alex, Let's take this opportunity to go deeper.
Let's look at the difference between concept and experience. ..or rather the relationship between them.
My experience remains as per the conclusion of the prior paragraph:
A conclusion is something arrived at logically. Using mind. So an experience as per a conclusion is an oxymoron.
so I guess in a way they are located everywhere and nowhere.
This is conceptual.
When I observe I can feel them come from all around.
This is experiential, but i wonder if it isn't a response to a concept.
Do you actually feel them coming from all around, or would it be more accurate to say that you imagine them coming from all around because they just appear? (& you feel compelled to give them a location)?

with love

vince

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Re: Guideless Guide

Postby ImpVirt777 » Wed May 26, 2021 4:27 am

G'day Alex, Let's take this opportunity to go deeper.
Let's look at the difference between concept and experience. ..or rather the relationship between them.
My experience remains as per the conclusion of the prior paragraph:
A conclusion is something arrived at logically. Using mind. So an experience as per a conclusion is an oxymoron.
so I guess in a way they are located everywhere and nowhere.
This is conceptual.
When I observe I can feel them come from all around.
This is experiential, but i wonder if it isn't a response to a concept.
Do you actually feel them coming from all around, or would it be more accurate to say that you imagine them coming from all around because they just appear? (& you feel compelled to give them a location)?

with love

vince
Hi Vince,
A conclusion is something arrived at logically. Using mind. So an experience as per a conclusion is an oxymoron.
that's true, it is oxymoronic. I see what you're saying - conclusion was not a good word choice.
Yet I would say that describing anything in language at all by definition diminishes the experience into concept. I don't see how you can get around this by maintaining a dialogue about an experience of suchness. My words were an approximation of an experience, and certainly conceptual, but I disagree the experience I was describing was the experience of the description itself (the deep experience at that time). It was a relation of momentary experience that I experienced with the body and observation.

The only way around this I can see would be to negate every statement about anything at all, since every statement is by definition false: i.e. not that, not that, not that.
so I guess in a way they are located everywhere and nowhere.
This is conceptual.


I agree, if I describe it it by definition conceptual. Yet - I know when I sit still "how it feels" or what I am noticing.
This is experiential, but i wonder if it isn't a response to a concept.
Do you actually feel them coming from all around, or would it be more accurate to say that you imagine them coming from all around because they just appear? (& you feel compelled to give them a location)?
At the time I was describing the experience of zazen. For sure, if I require to put this into words it seems conceptual.
I don't think I felt compelled to give them a location - that's simply how I observe thought arise. But I know what you're saying.

Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe it is just a response to a concept? How do I know this?
you imagine them coming from all around because they just appear? (& you feel compelled to give them a location)?
I don't make them do anything, they just pop up without me. When I describe the experience, that's the best I can conceptualise it as being like in this dialogue. It's like noticing an itch on my foot "there is an itch on my foot", it is just a vague linguistic approximation of the totality of that experiencing.

There is a tendency to be too verbose in descriptions I make., I recognise that, and perhaps I've completely deluded myself? It doesn't feel like that, not how I 've been seeing lately. Maybe I'm just walking around with a brand new concept and set of labels? I does not feel this way however when I experience things and observe things as they are in day to day life.

thanks again,

Alex

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vinceschubert
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Re: Guideless Guide

Postby vinceschubert » Wed May 26, 2021 10:56 pm

Good morning Alex,
It was a relation of momentary experience that I experienced with the body and observation.
Good. This is what we need to relate.
The only way around this I can see would be to negate every statement about anything at all, since every statement is by definition false: i.e. not that, not that, not that.
Yes, because we are confined to an inadequate language, we have to do some of this. It's a question of how do we look past the words at what is being pointed at.
I know when I sit still "how it feels" or what I am noticing.
Again good. Just checking that the words were pointing at experiencing.
that's simply how I observe thought arise.
Good good.
Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe it is just a response to a concept? How do I know this?
That's something for yourself to leave as an open question. Only a recognition from noticing will reveal that. Even if it was (responding to concept) it was an experiential response.
it is just a vague linguistic approximation of the totality of that experiencing.
The "vague approximation..." is fine, as long as we know what it points to.
Thought is defined (in the dictionary) as a noun. That's a thing. ..but something that we are not taught in school is the difference between and abstract noun and a concrete one. Turns out that the definition of an abstract noun is (almost) the same as a concept. Abstract nouns represent intangible ideas. (Grammarly) Ha, it's a thing that's not a thing. How confusing is that?
...but we're stuck with this crazy language, so we just have to muddle our way through.
Maybe I'm just walking around with a brand new concept and set of labels?
Of course you are. The point is not to banish thoughts, but to recognize them for what they are.
Here's an interesting one; i sit here with laptop on lap and through the window is a large tree. i see tree. ..but not that tree.
i see the abstract noun of that tree. When i notice this, some characteristics of the tree come into focus. Now i see this tree. i notice the character if some branches, the coloring of leaves, movement, the backdrop of blueness, shadow.

with love

vince

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Re: Guideless Guide

Postby ImpVirt777 » Thu May 27, 2021 2:49 pm

Hi Vince,

Thanks again for the response.
Yes, because we are confined to an inadequate language, we have to do some of this. It's a question of how do we look past the words at what is being pointed at.
Yes I agree. It's difficult to do. I was amused watching an argument today between 2 colleagues who were not actually disagreeing in a substantial way, I thought in fact they were saying the same thing, trying to approximate the same outcome. I'm noticing this a lot lately. A curious side effect is that sometimes in a measured and thoughtful way, I can cut through these kinds of situations. I did the other night with a friend, she started crying with relief after we discussed a
"problem" that she had.
That's something for yourself to leave as an open question. Only a recognition from noticing will reveal that. Even if it was (responding to concept) it was an experiential response.
Yes there appears to be no real demarcation. When I notice (granted this is a concept but hear me out) I notice a kind of dualism drop. The dualism is false, Noticing the happening it is the noticing or realising that the dualism and seperation is false...So the concepting is not "unreal" or "in here" it is a part of the all-all-around. It seems there is the noticing of it...so as not to become too enamored with it where you begin to cling to it, and in this way you notice more.
The "vague approximation..." is fine, as long as we know what it points to.
Thought is defined (in the dictionary) as a noun. That's a thing. ..but something that we are not taught in school is the difference between and abstract noun and a concrete one. Turns out that the definition of an abstract noun is (almost) the same as a concept. Abstract nouns represent intangible ideas. (Grammarly) Ha, it's a thing that's not a thing. How confusing is that?
...but we're stuck with this crazy language, so we just have to muddle our way through.
Crikey, I never made that connection...that's bizarre. It could represent a cultural kind of split between the physical and the abstract....that seems to plague us.

Do you think that a thought is concrete - as concrete as anything else? So there isn't really any need for the label "abstract", since the thought is a much a part of everything as everything else - it doesn't exist as "an abstraction", which is to say a thought is a happening like a bird chirping is a happening? We call it abstract because we have a split in a culture...like the split in our minds of say, the spiritual and the physical - one that other cultures do not have.

Yeah we really tend to muddle along...with the addition of a very strange biology it's not so hard to understand all the weird and wonderful variations that arise.

So we can't banish the tree, but we think we can banish the thoughts...really we just need to notice.
Of course you are. The point is not to banish thoughts, but to recognize them for what they are.
Here's an interesting one; i sit here with laptop on lap and through the window is a large tree. i see tree. ..but not that tree.
i see the abstract noun of that tree. When i notice this, some characteristics of the tree come into focus. Now i see this tree. i notice the character if some branches, the coloring of leaves, movement, the backdrop of blueness, shadow.
This was a very helpful paragraph. I really like this. It is the immersion in the moment, the ability to take a step back and just look. A tree, a thought, a happening...

very nice.

Love,

Alex

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Re: Guideless Guide

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:53 pm

Good evening Alex, Well, i don't know where to go from here.
It seems to me that you grok that there is direct experiencing, which is fleeting. ..and then there is story which is responded to with experiencing. Then there is story about that experiencing, which we respond to with experiencing, Then there is story about that experience, which we respond to with....
Now these stories arrive. They pop into existence. They are a product of our unique evolution. Habit and circumstances are probably the biggest influences in their creation. Habits born of conditioning. Circumstances being the alignment of current conditions. i guess that the habit is one of the conditions necessary for the birthing of stories.
Some of these stories are no longer current in a word form. They have been internalized. Their residue produces reflexive responses. When they are triggered, they happen automatically. No conscious awareness required.
Stories are of many different flavors. They can be accurate or wildly fantastic. They can be a known fiction yet produce heartwarming responses. They can be quite accurate and produce chilling reactions.
They can be useful (or not)
One thing for sure is that there are a lot of stories that contribute greatly to suffering.
Some are repeated so much that they are believed in spite of being unsupported by scientific rigor.
How is it that anything that we identify with, produces suffering?

with love

vince

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Re: Guideless Guide

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:49 am

Good morning Alex, keep your answers short and from an experiential perspective.

how are thoughts created,

And is there awareness in the body.

is there control over thinking?

How are things done?

Is there doership.

vince

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Re: Guideless Guide

Postby ImpVirt777 » Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:24 am

Morning Vince,

was about to respond to your last but I'll just go with this.
how are thoughts created,
I am not sure, I just note they arise and fall away when I choose to take notice. When the attention is fixed, some thoughts come up dependnong on the object of attention. I am not sure how they are created.
And is there awareness in the body.
I have awareness of the body, sensations etc but this show me it is in the body.
is there control over thinking?
As far as I can tell absoloutely not. This is an illusion. There is no control over anything that I notice.
How are things done?
There is hunger, there is the action to sate hunger. There is a drive or some sort, the is something that gets done to satisfy the drive, usually by movement in physical space. The drives are not of the self, getting things done is not of a self.
Is there doership.
There is a experience of doing or being engaged in a task. The body/mind is doing something...so you could ascribe doership to the bodymind as far as I can see, but there is no self as such doing the doing so it is difficult to ascribe doership - if doership implies the complete control of something by the self.
I notice now there are happenings, there are actions and doings but I don't think there is doership if I'm understanding the question.

Cheers,

Alex

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Re: Guideless Guide

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:35 pm

Good morning Alex, well we have agreement that i haven't missed anything.
The color of ImpVirt777 will change from green to blue. You will be invited to join Fb group Unleashed where there are others who have seen through the common delusions.
You can also ask admin to join you up to Fb group Guide Central where you can request a mentor and start guiding.
This thread will be archived but you can always reach me on PM or email.
See you on the other side...

with love

vince

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Re: Guideless Guide

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:50 pm

Ah Alex, some more questions have popped up. You're indulgence please..
- How much of thinking is under your control? Please give an example to illustrate.
- where do thoughts take place?
- You described the traits of your bodymind, what is that bodymind?
- What moves the body?

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Re: Guideless Guide

Postby ImpVirt777 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:35 pm

Ah Alex, some more questions have popped up. You're indulgence please..
- How much of thinking is under your control? Please give an example to illustrate.
- where do thoughts take place?
- You described the traits of your bodymind, what is that bodymind?
- What moves the body?
Hi Vince,

More questions! They seem all very familiar at this point, so why not.

How much thinking is under my control?

Zero. I Know this every time I meditate. Thoughts pop up, ergo, I don’t control them…in that state, I just observe them. Sometimes I get caught up in them. Either way, I see that I do not control them.

Where do thoughts take place ?

From whence they arise I don't know - where they sit I do not know.
In meditation I think I described before they seem to "float by" and when I "grab on to them" they shape the feeling of what is happening and emotions arise. There does not appear to me to be an exact location they take place. If you were to ask physically show me where they take place, I could not show a specific location. Most would say in the head, in the brain. But where in the head and the brain. What is a thought anyway?

What is the bodymind?

A bodymind is just a convenient label to use to describe….all sensory awareness, instead of just mind or brain which is too limiting a label. Self is too limiting. It describes the organism in its totality without referring a more limiting label or construct. Granted, it is a construct. It describes the organism without the limitation of free will, as if there is a vast reservoir of intelligence or will beyond the illusion of control of me.

What moves the body?

I mentioned that I notice drives, desires, whatever, and it seems to be that when I desire something the body moves to satisfy these drives or desires. I.e. hunger - I move to the kitchen. To answer these questions that popped up, I moved to grab my computer to be able to respond. To type the response, my fingers are moving as thoughts come to me. By extension if thoughts are not of me as I regularly not, drives are not of me as we note, then movement is also not of a self as such. I do not know “what” moves it, other than drives beyond my conscious control.

Cheers,

Alex


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