Clear space

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:40 am

I go back to the 5 questions occasionally.
fine :-)
however, when i move on to the next questions there's no clarity to answer them with. only the mind trying to find the 'right' answers, not a clear seeing. I will continue to look!
just try to write down what you see when you look.
If it is not clear we can investigate together .... you lead on!

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:45 pm

Hi Ve

I've been focussing on this a lot lately, there are thoughts that say I'm not there yet, that there is another state to achieve, and that may be so, but I will answer the questions as is experienced now.

Recently it has become clear to me that thought is commentary, not direct experiencing. Thought doesn’t experience anything, nor is it required for anything to be experienced; it simply adds a commentary afterwards. This has released some of the clinging to thought and taking it seriously.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

A. there is no separate entity / self / me, except as an idea / thought. There never was, except as an idea / thought.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

A. The separate self is a pattern of thought knitted together over time. It contains thoughts about the past, the imaginary future, what's good / bad about 'me', friends, enemies, experiences etc. Like a bird's nest it is made up of many different fragments, but on close inspection it's seen that there is no thing called 'nest' there, just a a bunch of twigs and leaves, which give the general impression of 'nest'. It is linked to the material body, which is believed to house 'me'.

It begins from early childhood, a sense of 'me' belonging to 'this family' and being part of a tribe. It is also a social convention, it is what we do as humans to play the game of life and engage with each other. 'I' then take this idea over and build on it myself, particularly starting in adolescence. Wanting to associate with certain things and people (right, cool, interesting) and to disassociate with others (wrong, bad, boring). I see how I have self-mythologised over the years; creating a story and a history about 'myself', often to hide wounds, defend poor decisions, make bleak periods seem more interesting, validate and endorse 'myself'. Periods of depression and unhappiness have occurred when it's not been possible for thoughts to make the story 'ok' for 'me'. Periods of happiness have occurred when thoughts, actions and circumstances have aligned in a way that felt 'ok' to the mind, and was congruent with what 'I' wanted. All this linked to the body and physical sensations -what is comfortable / uncomfortable. Trying to escape what feels 'bad' using thoughts. Trying to make more good stuff, using thoughts. The mind constantly assessing, judging, narrating; endlessly trying to think its way out of reality into some imaginary future where everything is rosy and perfect.

Meanwhile, life is simply unfolding, here and now, irrespective of thoughts. Thoughts are part of that unfolding, but they do not create life and they are no more 'me' than anything else arising. It is only a thought that says it's me!


3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

A. When I initially had a clear seeing of this my main thought was how much time I'd wasted on nonsense! How bloody ridiculous it all is! Since then, those self-building / defending thought and behaviour patterns have simply lost their grip and are seen as what they are, just thoughts trying to bolster up a man-made thought creation. It's very liberating to see it, as there's no longer a need to hold on to this little persona, to manage it and keep it 'safe' from external threats. Sometimes there's still a reflexive defensive response to a perceived external threat to 'me', but these are quickly seen for what they are, and there's not the unquestioned identification with this imagined person that there previously was.

Since before I started the dialogue there has been a gradual shifting and change, and clarities have arisen. Nothing terribly dramatic has happened, but that happened a few months before we started working together. I have a much less clear sense of time nowadays, but if I reflect back I can see that a lot has shifted, but in a slow, seismic way. I no longer have any desire to bolster myself up in any way shape or form. Even things like dressing up, putting on make-up, wearing heels seem absurd to me now. I previously did those things all the time! When I have formal work, I dress up, but it feels like 'dressing up' now, as putting on an appropriate persona for the job.

A couple of weeks ago I was talking to someone about a baby I lost years ago, they asked if it still hurt me, and suddenly I realised that it hurts me no more than if it had happened to a woman across the road. And yet at the time it was utterly devastating, and sent me into a deep depression for several years. Now, it's just a thought, a story about something that happened once. All those old pains and stories about what happened 'to me' have fallen away, like autumn leaves from a tree.

The last few days I've been more able to shift focus away from thought to the underlying peace that lies when attention is pulled softly back into itself. Just here, now. There's also been a sensation round the heart, deep and strong and loving. But it's beyond the mind, and afterwards the mind tries to understand it - it clearly can't, so then it says I imagined it. I don't give these thoughts any strong attention, just observe them.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

A. I don't believe that I've had the last push! I know that's just a thought, but I figure it's like an orgasm - you know it without doubt when it's happened! :-)
Lately, it feels like it's so close. I know that is just a belief, but (like an orgasm) I know I can't force it, just keep looking, being aware, coming back to the now.



I can't answer question 5 as I'm not experientially there yet, I'd just be making stuff up to try and find the right answer.


Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:56 am

Hi Escalpemos
there are thoughts that say I'm not there yet, that there is another state to achieve
Any state by definition is changing. Are you looking for the changing or the unchanging?
can't answer question 5 as I'm not experientially there yet, I'd just be making stuff up to try and find the right answer.
Your answeres sounds quite clear and I would encougrage you to try question 5. Just answering from direct experience what you find. It is good to see when you start to "making stuff up to try and find the right answer". Then relax and just look. Maybe it is too simple and obvious? Remember the palm flipping exercise we did! It is simple like that .... was it only an exercise or is it how it works with decision, free will , etc in "whole life" .....? Look!

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:11 pm

Hi Ve

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Decision is a thought, a preference. We say that ‘I made a decision’, but on closer inspection that’s not what happens, there is no separate little person doing a process called ‘deciding’. There are thoughts and preferences, which have developed across our lifetime, influenced by many factors. A situation arises and there may be many thoughts about it, then they settle to a position. The body goes about its business, it doesn’t decide anything. It’s possible to have a thought /decision, and the body does something quite different (e.g. giving up smoking).

Intention is just an idea about wanting something to be a certain way or to be different, just another thought. ‘It is my intention to clean the kitchen’ – just an idea, a thought with no more ‘truth’ to it that any other. Action may follow and be ascribed to it, but it may not.

Free will – this only seems to be a concept. The idea that there’s a ‘me’ who can choose what they do in life. Firstly, what’s choice? There’s only ever what happens, we may add thoughts on to it and say ‘I chose this’, but it implies that there were other possibilities. In theory there may be other possibilities, but it’s hypothetical as in reality there is only ever what happens now. Thoughts may be added afterwards as a way of trying to rationalise events.

Control – the idea that we can affect an outcome or conditions. Firstly, who is it who supposedly has control? The body, the mind, the imaginary little me? The body has its biological functions which run naturally, no sense of ‘control’ is required. The mind has no control over itself or thoughts, so how can it possibly control circumstances / factors in the wider world? There is no ‘little me’ hidden in the body/ mind that can control anything. Control is just an idea, a thought. It is added to experiences and events, part of the narration of the mind.

However, there are people who have learned to control the body or the breath to perform super-human feats – e.g. deep diving, contortionists, people who can hold their breath for 4 minutes etc. Isn’t this control? But I can’t see who’s doing the controlling.


b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

A. Things just seem to be happening, I have no idea if there’s anything that ‘makes’ things happen. It all seems interconnected, so I don’t see one thing that’s responsible for it all. Perhaps everything makes everything happen.


c) What are you responsible for?

A. How can I be responsible for anything? Who is here to be responsible, an idea of a person? The body is responsible for producing waste matter, the mind is responsible for producing thought. But those things are just natural occurrences, I’m not sure that responsible is the correct term to use.

d) Give examples from experience.

I was recently away travelling. One day thoughts had changed and the desire to keep travelling had gone. My mind tried to make sense of it, but simply there was a ‘thought’ for something else, different thoughts and different actions. People asked me why I’d changed my mind, but I realised that I hadn’t done anything, the mind had changed of its own accord. There was no ‘me’ making a decision. So it seemed natural and right, I came home and haven’t thought about it much since.


Love Ecalpemos

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:12 pm

Hi Ve

I realise I didn't answer this question...

Any state by definition is changing. Are you looking for the changing or the unchanging?

A. I am looking for a permanent shift in perspective. A clear experiencing of oneness. I imagine that within that things will be constantly changing, but I guess I am looking for a shift that stays shifted!


Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:17 pm

Do you have a clear experience of separation when looking in direct experience?

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:36 am

Hi Ve

Do you have a clear experience of separation when looking in direct experience?

A. No, I don't. I realise that I am waiting for the experience of 'oneness' which I've read about from other people! When I look it's clear that nothing is separate or apart from the rest, and that everything is interconnected in some way. Things are permanently changing, but nothing ever can be taken out of the whole or brought in from an 'outside'. It just seems obvious and not amazing in any way. I think I'm waiting for a wow moment!


Love Ecalpemos

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:50 pm

Hi Ve

I went to sit in the park this morning, just watching and sitting. There's been a space around thoughts lately, and a subtle knowing that I'm not the body or the thoughts. Then there was a realisation - If I'm not the body or the thoughts, then what am I? What's left? All there was was the park, the trees, the sky, birds singing, people coming and going, a body sitting on a bench, some random thoughts floating about. Just life unfolding here.

No great revelation, space, then the mind trying to make sense of it. Looking for a person that isn't here.

What am I? I have no idea.


Love Ecalpemos

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:46 pm

Hi Ve

another message! I'm posting as it unfolds...

Things are feeling clearer now.

It seems that I had got myself tangled up with all the assertions - you are not your body, you are not your thoughts etc.
But on looking it appears that I am as much my body as I am anything else that's arising. The problem comes when 'I' separate out bits of what's arising and say 'that's me', then live through the filter of thoughts, believing I am that fragment.

I - whatever that is, has no parameters or limitations. Everything arises equally in awareness without any value judgment - a rose or a dog poo - it's all the same!

I was tangled up by the idea that my body goes everywhere with 'me', but I guess that so does a shadow, given the right conditions, and I wouldn't believe that i was that.

Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:21 pm

HI Ecalpemos,

after your "posting as it unfolds... " ... would you still say: "that everything is interconnected in some way"?
Can you find this connection? Or is it more one whole flow that includes everything?

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:27 pm

Hi Ve

It is one whole flow that includes everything.

Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:19 am

Hi Escalpemaos,

your answeres and unfolding posts sounds very clear and even the other guides have no doubt! :-)

As you see, your name turned blue and watch out for PM from admin team with information and invitation to aftercare and unleashed groups.

This thread was moved to the archive and will be closed. It was a pleasure for me walkig with you and we can continue if there is / will be anything to look at. If so, send me a PM or open a new thread in the further investigations section of this forum any time.

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:37 am

Hi Ve

Thanks so much for all your time, help, thoughts and guidance. It has been greatly appreciated :-)

Much love xxxx

Jenny aka Ecalpemos (Someplace)


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