I want to understand.

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: I want to understand.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:32 pm

Hello Sarala, I am a university professor living in Australia.
I feel clear about seeing there is no inherent self and feel open and happy about it and much lighter and having quite a surge of energy this morning.
OK -- these energetic releases are a good sign -- a tip would be to trust sensation and not thought in these things!
I'm not sure about a paradigm shift. It was a soft shift if I could put it like that. I suppose it takes people differently. It will be interesting to see what happens now, whether it all fades away when I stop directly thinking about it in an intense situation like this.
It's natural that doubts such as this arise from time to time intitially. The key is to be in contact with some supportive people who see things clearly. I can make some recommendations later.
In some way I feel completely different and in another way I don't feel any different. Breaking the first 3 fetters is supposed to be permanent but can it fade if not given much attention?
Let's not get too caught up in models. The recognition that there is no "self" or no separation is available to all people and is expressed differently in different traditions. The 10 fetters is (but one) Buddhist formulation. Be careful that once the self view has fallen you don't get caught up in further "seeking". Just relax into what has been seen for a while. Of course there is always more to be seen -- again trust the way that the energy feels in the body to guide you as to what needs to be looked at -- just as you did previously with the sense of contraction.

OK now I'll ask you some "summing up" questions to see if these bring up any issues we may need to explore further -- remember to answer these from what you have seen -- and not from thought!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Gardenia
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Re: I want to understand.

Postby Gardenia » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:26 pm

Hi Mark
It's amazing that you are doing this from across the other side of the world. I have several friends who have family in Australia and I spent my honeymoon in Sidney and lived in NZ for 3 1/2 years in the seventies. My husband was a kiwi. I am divorced now.
Perhaps you don't give out your surname or city but I wondered if you had any connection to Triratna or perhaps a Zen group?

Anyway now to the summing up questions:-

1) There is no separate entity, self, me or I at all anywhere and never has been. That has been seen.

2) The illusion of self is that from the outside 'I' appear to be an independent being or person that runs 'my life and controls what happens. Even from the inside, meaning 'my' experience, this has been interpreted as a someone making decisions and in control. This has been reinforced through upbringing and language. But what is actually happening is that energy moves towards or away from appearances and contracts or expands in response. All there is is sense experience. That's all there can ever be, just momentary appearances arising and disappearing. The body-mind itself is just another appearance. There is just awareness and appearances appear in this awareness.

3) It feels amazing. 'I' feel completely opened up, spacious, light and free. I had 'seen' some of this when I did Direct Pointing before but 'I' had not 'seen' fully and I was doubting my experience and felt unsure of what was known. 'I' feel relieved and thankful now.

4) It was just the explanation about energy contracting and expanding. Just that sparked off the intuition that I knew that and it was true and that was what I had thought was the self before. Then I verified it in 'my' experience.

5) Decision making is just this energy going towards a thought about an action. 'I' could think about options but the decision is not conscious just a movement of energy. eg driving a car, there is no one making decisions about how to drive or which lane to move into or when, it just happens without thought.

Intention is also an impulse, an energetic movement. eg I was doing a walking meditation in a straight line which meant turning round after a certain distance. After I turned round I realised that there had been an unconscious impulse to turn which the body had done but it didn't have anything to do with a self.

There is no free will. That is an illusion. 'I' think 'I' am deciding things, making choices and controlling thought, feelings and actions. It's all nonsense. There is no control of anything, just energetic responses. Appearances just arise and pass.
eg What feels like directed thinking about a subject is just one thought following another in quick succession so they could easily be about the same subject but that does not mean anyone is directing the thoughts.

'I' am not a 'person' who is responsible but because there is a body here how it acts in the world needs an awareness of ethics, of the affect on 'others'. Awareness is limitless and encompasses 'others' so there is a natural ethical sensitivity. But there is still craving and aversion (energetic movements) which can affect 'others' so awareness needs to be kept bright and alive. eg I felt a bit hurt by something someone said at a lunch for a group of people today. I didn't reply with harsh or unkind speech as I saw my reaction was just a contraction of energy anyway, so It could just be let go of.

6) I am immensely grateful for this process and brilliant questions.

Sarala

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: I want to understand.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:15 pm

Thank you Sarala for these lovely responses. I have asked other guides to take a look and let us know if there are any issues they think we need to explore further. It has been a pleasure to work with you. Once finished I can make a suggestion about groups that explore no-self/nonduality further in a Buddhist context that might suit you.

xx

Mark
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Gardenia
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Re: I want to understand.

Postby Gardenia » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:19 pm

OK thanks Mark. xx

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: I want to understand.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:04 am

Hello Sarala just a quick question from another guide:

What is it that needs to keep awareness bright and alive? What is it that sees this as a responsibility?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Gardenia
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Re: I want to understand.

Postby Gardenia » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:07 am

Hi Mark
I knew I hadn't put that very well. Awareness is always bright and alive but perception of it sometimes can dull due to for instance tiredness or craving etc. It's not that there is anyone being responsible but ethics is still important. So continually noticing the effects of actions of body speech and mind is important. Perception still happens without a self so unethical behaviour will be responded to with a natural sensitivity.
Is that better?
Sarala

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Jack'n'theBox
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Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:55 am

Re: I want to understand.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:11 pm

Thank you Sarala, a growing natural sensitivity is a nice way to put it.

There are no more questions, you should get an email from an LU administrator inviting you to some aftercare groups should you wish to join. It was a pleasure meeting you here. May you go well.

xx

Mark
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Gardenia
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Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:30 am

Re: I want to understand.

Postby Gardenia » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:13 pm

Thanks again Mark. It's been brilliant.
Sarala xx


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