Now and Here and Nowhere?

[Ezilda]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand this as that the sense of self is mostly (entirely?) a result of thoughts, reinforced by feelings and body sensations . . . but it is not actually necessary, and actually tends to obscure the experience of being alive. When I actually look for this so-called "I" or "me" it is very elusive, and can't really be pinpointed.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a recognition or realization that can really allow me to free myself from these notions of "I" and "me" doing and living this life. As I said, actually pinpointing an "I" doesn't really conjure up much of anything except subtle body sensations, perhaps behind the eyes, or around the mouth/jaw/tongue or somewhere in the face, or perhaps some slight tensing in the chest or the arms, or down in the diaphragm . . . . . and the location shifts from place to place with different times, moods, etc . . .

But the thoughts and sense of "I" spring back again in my day-to-day experience, when I'm not paying close attention, when my thoughts are just rumbling along and I'm lost in a stream of thought, and this sense of "I" seems like it is a very strong habit . . . how to once and for all totally sever it?
Hoping LU can make that happen.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm hoping that the guided conversations will help to keep me honest and on track, keep me at this every day, and help me with appropriate questions and challenges to clearly see how I tend to fool myself, where I'm stuck or afraid, and also help keep me from being evasive or distracted. Ultimately, I'm hoping to see right through this sense of a separate self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Maybe I've had too much spiritual practice? To the point wherewhatever has been learned has just been blended into the habits of having a sense of self? In the late 70's, after doing a fair amount of new age reading, I found myself at a 2-week silent meditation retreat with Jack Kornfield and Joseph Goldstein -- at first I had a lot of resistance but by the second week there was the revelation that my thoughts were habits, happening on their own and miracle of miracles! I didn't have to believe them! (But for the most part, continued believing them anyway.)
Several more retreats and eventually in the early 80's did a three month silent retreat in Barre . . . but I think I was trying too hard, beating myself up for not being "mindful every moment," that sort of thing and fell away for nearly a decade.
A loving-kindness retreat brought be back . . . I was kinder to myself . . .

And I finally developed a daily sitting practice with the aid of weekly meditation groups. More retreats with Therevaden monks, the occasional sesshin, Goenke's vipassana retreats (which were very good for grounding and getting familiar with body sensations.).
The Vipassana retreats helped me to recognize how thoughts tend to be entwined with body sensations and the two tend to validate and reinforce one another. But through all of this it seems, even though I understood that thoughts are just happening, it seems I never really relinquished the sense of trying that was so predominate at Barre . . . to the point where I'd practically clutch when I noticed thinking, 'trying' to force the awareness back to perceptions, sensations . . .

For the past few years have been smitten with Nisaragadatta and Samaneri Jayasara's Youtube channel Wisdom of the Masters, and that sense of trying has softened, and there have been numerous attempts at self-inquiry--who is this I? where is it? What thinks it's an I? And there's the recognition that nothing seems to be there, but the recognition doesn't seem to stick, old habits kick in.

Most recently I've stumbled across non-dual teachers like Angelo Dilullo (did a 5 day zoom retreat with him in January) who have encouraged me to believe that freedom from the sense of "I" should really be possible, even for me. And was even more encouraged when I stumbled across your website and realized somebody might actually be able to guide me! This has allowed me to believe that awakening could actually happen in this lifetime . . . . and in that this lifetime is running its course, I'm feeling more and more the sense of now or never . . .

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Anastacia42]

Hi Ezilda,

Your statement about "now or never" was touching. Let's give this a shot, eh?

Here is my usual introduction with some information & instructions.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[Anastacia42]

I usually don't offer these until all else has failed. This is a recording of a meditation retreat I attended in 2007.

Mostly, I want you to listen to the Introduction. You can proceed with the rest if you like. I'll be guiding you here with different pointers.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/dcx2cai6 ... iow5x&dl=0

Loving,

[Ezilda]

Stacy, thanks for taking me on!

How will life change?

I don't really know. Not sure that life will really change--there will still be breathing, sleeping, waking up, sense impressions and all that; interactions with friends and family, .. . there are still the taxes to finish, and other obligations and assorted busy-ness. I imagine things will just carry on. The sense of being alive, though, will be enhanced? And noticing thinking with more awareness, less getting lost in it.

How will you change?

"I" won't feel so real anymore? I imagine this sense of "I" will really feel bogus, that I will somehow completely see through it. Less identification, attachment to this personality that's been established over all these years.
Perhaps I'll become less concerned with the state of the world? Or actually find myself more involved?
More in touch with my intuition, and willing to go with it?
Somehow feel more free.

What will be different?

Instead of saying things like "I'm procrastinating" perhaps it will be more automatic to just say "Procrastination is happening." And possibly the sense of judgment won't be so pronounced?

And again, not really sure, but I imagine there will be more of a sense of living in the here and now. Am realizing I'm not at all sure what will be different -- I have more a sense of just wanting to find out.

I have a friend who has had an awakening experience, and she has said that for her there's a sense of living in a continuous state of free fall . . I imagine that it could be something like that.
And in that way, I think it could be a bit disorienting, there might even be a sense of loss -- I could be more attached to this sense of me than I'm willing to acknowledge.

What is missing?

A sense that everything is ok just the way it is.

What would you like for meP to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Ezilda is fine. Pacific Standard Time (same as Seattle or San Francisco)

[Anastacia42]

Hi Ezilda,

You're welcome.

Your expectations are fairly reasonable. We're looking for a shift in perception. It may be subtle & gradual or it could be more intense.

Did you listen to the Introduction in my next post?

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Hope you see this in time.

This Sunday. 6 to 8 pm UTC +4 Mauritius Time

Deep looking is for you if you have an ongoing issue that makes you feel stuck, if you are looking for peace but cannot find it, if your heart is longing for something deep and meaningful, but nothing satisfies that longing.

Come to a meeting with a small group and we can explore together, giving space for tension to unwind.

You can use the old link, that you have or email me at admin@ilonaciunaite.com and I will send it to you.

See you there! (Ilona)
✨❤️✨

[Ezilda]

Did you listen to the Introduction in my next post?

I believe so (last post rather than next?). . . And think over the past few years I've been sort of shifting in that direction . .. the difference between purification and recognition type meditions made sense, and I listened to a few of the techniques -- found myself most resonating to 'this is how god is appearing to me right now,' with the sense of resting in that.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

Admittedly, have run across this before (and on your website), and it does make intellectual sense to me. "I" and "me" are useful words for communicating with others, and seem to correlate with places/sensations in the body, yet when I try and zero in on those, the correlations change/dissolve. But in sinking into the whole notion of "no separate self," that it's "a made up story," I have the sense of being more of an animal, like a dog or a bird . . . sitting here, looking around from "inside" the body . . . not using words to describe it (until of course I start typing) . . . and I'm liking this, resonating to the idea of no self here . . seeing feels more vivid . . . . . but still, the body seems like its own separate thing (distinct from the table, for instance), and there's this elusive "I" perceiving through it . . and the body & "I" both seem separate from everything else, from other people, etc . . .

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Okay, good. That last question checks for fears and you seem not to have any strong ones. Only fear and expectations can keep you from seeing that there is no self right here, right now.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



The pointers I will give you will show you how to LOOK and ignore all of that misleading thinking.

Loving,

[Ezilda]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Yes, it seems clear that seeing, hearing, sensation, tasting and smelling, and even thoughts (when I can notice them), are direct experiences. The sense of direct experience sort of disappears with thinking, reading, conversing, etc. -- am more caught up in the meanings/emotions/getting my message across,etc., and there's less sense of being here, present.

[Anastacia42]

Yes, very good. Now let's practice it:

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Ezilda]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Seeing coffee cup, simply == image
Hearing refrigerator souds, simply = sound
Feeling cup with hands == sensation
Tasting coffee & milk, simply = taste
Smelling the coffee, simply = smell
Thought Arising, simply == thought

sitting in car feeling steering wheel, simply = sensation
seeing through window, simply = image /colors
hearing traffic, simply = sound
thought about doing this, simply = thought

Walking in park feeling feet on ground, simply = sensation
Seeing green grass, simply = color
hearing ravens, simply = sound
thought on remembering to do this, simply = thought

Sitting at table seeing laptop, simply = image
Hearing an airplane, simply = sound
feeling trackpad, simply = sensation
thought about the grass, simply = thought

[Anastacia42]

Good, yes. Exactly.

Now this one:


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?


Loving

[Ezilda]

Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Truer? In a certain way, neither of them seemed really true . . . they were descriptions, being written --and this was sort of getting in the way of the experience . . . overlaying it with a thought . .

There was a sense that putting an "I am" at the beginning of each description wasn't really necessary to knowing the experience being described. And in that way the descriptions without "I am" seemed more to the point, truer.

What is here without labels?

What's here, without any descriptive language or labels is more a sense of pure experiencing . . . it's actually a more alive, richer and in some ways a more indescribable experience. There's more going on in a way, than what can be described, even in a very brief moment of experience.

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

In a way, the act writing about the experience, getting at a label and description, sort of takes me out of it -- the attention then goes to the writing, and the experience I'm writing about isn't really happening anymore, at least not in the same vivid way that it was first encountered.

Did you notice any differences in the body?

Pressing the pen to paper to write "I" seemed generate a sort of pressure feeling in the writing arm, and also in the upper chest/neck area. I was wondering if that was only because "I" was used each time to initially start writing . . . there seemed to be less of that feeling once I got to the word "am." But even in just thinking "I," with a sense of referring to me, there's a suble sense of pressure in the torso.

Afterward I wrote a few times "And now I am . . . ." Starting with "And" did seem to dissapate that initial pressure feeling a bit. It seems that I push the pen down harder when making the first stroke of the letter "I" then I do with making an "A" in "And."

(And then wondering why "I" is capitalized in English, but not in other languages -- je in french, yo in spanish, etc. And we certainly don't capitalize "you" or "we" or "he" or "she." An inbuilt set up in English for self-importance?)

[Anastacia42]

First. in what way did you stick to only Direct Experience in your replies?


Almost everything in your reply is the content of thought. We are ignoring that, as much as possible. Reread Colored Socks, please.

Then let's start with truth & lies.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[Ezilda]

First. in what way did you stick to only Direct Experience in your replies?

In trying to answer, am feeling uncertainty -- tightness in chest and diaphragm -- I keep looking at my answers -- and now, aha, seeing that they are more descripitve/explanatory (thought) than present experience.
The most "direct experience" was about the sense of pressure experienced in the arm and chest in writing "I."

What is found?

When I re-play lying to someone I loved, I find myself experiencing contraction in the stomach/solar plexus, pressure in my chest and a little bit trembly,tightening in the throat, some heat in my face, and pressure around the jaws, tightness below the eyes

Do you see that?

Yes, I can see that the word "peaceful" is a description of sensations in the body, sensations of lightness, expansion, relaxation (not contracted)