Am I who I think I am?

[dottymoo101]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Conceptually, I belief there is no inherent self, and that the self I perceive is a collection of processes, views, habits and patterns of conditioning arising and falling in consciousness. I've looked for self and it can't find but when there's a decision or a choice to be made, it still feels likes there's a me doing the deciding.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like a guide to help me explore the tension between what I believe to be true, that is, that there is no inherent self, and my experience of there being an entity, that is me, making choices and decisions. I'd like to know what it is that I experience as the entity of me.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to undertake deep inner inquiry in to my experience and working with the guide using the method of direct pointing hope to finally awaken to the fact that there is no separate self at the centre of my existence.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
- Seven years of dharma study & meditation practice.
- Two Vipassana courses.
- Just started reading 'Awake' by Angelo DiLullo

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[poppyseed]

Hi dottymoo101
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[dottymoo101]

Hello Rali,

Thank you for offering to be my guide.

Please call me dot.

I confirm I have read ''What Liberation Unleashed is not''.

I will try to stick to a daily conversation to keep the intensity of the inquiry.

My time zone is GMT - united kingdom.

I'm ready to start.

With gratitude,
Dot

[dottymoo101]

Hello Rali,

Here's the same answers as my first message, but this uses quote function. Wasn't sure whether to use it on initial message.

My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Thank you for offering to be my guide.

Hi dottymoo101
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Please call me Dot.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

I confirm I have read ''What Liberation Unleashed is not''.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

I will try to stick to a daily conversation to keep the intensity of the inquiry.

What time zone are in?

My time zone is GMT - united kingdom.

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

I'm ready to start.

With gratitude,
Dot

[poppyseed]

Hi Dot

I can see you have mastered the quote function :). Thank you!
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

My time zone is GMT - united kingdom.

I'm GMT+2. Perfect :)

I'm ready to start.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[dottymoo101]

Hello Rali,

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open

Thank you for the questions. Just to let you know that I've had and unusually busy day and feel too tired to look at the them tonight. I'll look and respond tomorrow (Wednesday 12th Feb).

With thanks,
Dot

[poppyseed]

Hi Dot

Life happens...Thank you for letting me know!
Love
Rali

[dottymoo101]

Hello Rali,

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

OK lets do it.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

First response - there'll be no self to defend.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

Not sure. Maybe reduced reactivity, more letting-go, more ease.

3. What do you want not to happen?

To not finish the inquiry. Not to loose my values or become apathetic.

4. What are you hoping for?

To complete the inquiry and then we'll see.

5. What is missing?

Tricky! First response is nothing.

With thanks,
Dot

[poppyseed]

Hi Dot
Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

3. What do you want not to happen?

To not finish the inquiry. Not to loose my values or become apathetic.

Good. Now look— what is afraid of these things happening?
If there is no “I” and there never was, what could possibly "finish" or "not finish" inquiry? Do values actually belong to anyone, or are they just conditioned patterns arising on their own?
And apathy… Awakening does not lead to detachment, it only strips away the false, leaving life more vivid, immediate, and engaged. You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. What do you find? What happens when even these fears are allowed to be, without resistance?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. The more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. Only honesty will make this work
Love
Rali

[dottymoo101]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for bearing with me while I keep used to the flow of messaging. This challenged me, but there's something to work with.

If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Absolutely

Now look— what is afraid of these things happening?

Sitting with it, no feelings of fear arose. The 'what' feels like a held thought or view.

If there is no “I” and there never was, what could possibly "finish" or "not finish" inquiry?

The 'what' feels like a thought based on the sort of person I think myself to be. With my responses about finishing/not finishing, it feels like I’m communicating something along the lines that I’m the sort of person that likes to see something through and not one who gives up, even if it's hard. This is a repeated pattern in my life. The energy that accompanies that attitude has served me well in my past life, to achieve and grow. I can also see that it also keeps me trapped in patterns of being that are less/no longer helpful.

Do values actually belong to anyone, or are they just conditioned patterns arising on their own?

Sitting with this question, I don’t find anything tangible for value. Holding/aligning with a value doesn’t seem to mean very much as a thought either. But I have acted when I’ve felt my values have been challenged. So this would start with a bodily sensation, then feelings/emotion/thoughts and then action of some sort. So hearing it like, it feels like reactivity arising from clinging to an idea about the sort of person I think I am.

And apathy… Awakening does not lead to detachment, it only strips away the false, leaving life more vivid, immediate, and engaged. You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There  was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

Thank you for this example, it’s helpful and rings true for me. I can see that stripping away the false, the sense of a separate ‘I’, does not stop me engaging with life.

Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there.
See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. What do you find? What happens when even these fears are allowed to be, without resistance?

Please see the above comments in answer to this.

Now… If you look for the I, what is there?

It can’t be found.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

It feels fine.

Where exactly did you look?

In the sensing organs – eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind

What exactly did you find?

Here's a couple of examples of the looking. A sound arises in experience, it’s unpleasant, I don’t like it, I want it to stop, but I can’t turn off my hearing so it seems there's no 'I' controlling things to be found in the ears. Looking in to bodily sensations, a pleasant sensation arises in experience, I like it, it passes, I want it to last, but I can’t bring it back, bodily sensations are not under my control, they arise and pass away of their own accord. So there’s no 'I' to be found in touch.

It’s also like this for eyes, nose and tongue.

It’s the same for the mind. Thoughts arise in experience from seemingly nowhere, then disappear to nowhere. I can’t stop thoughts arising, I have no control over them, so there's no 'I' to be found in thoughts. I am able to divert attention away from thoughts by focusing on something else. Same with the other sensing organs.

But here’s the paradox, sometimes it feels like there’s something in me that watches the thoughts as they arise and pass away. Other times, especially around problem-solving, when ‘directed’ thinking is needed, it can feel like there’s something in me thats directing the thinking. An example would be in meditation when I’m surveying my body for sensations. I start by bringing attention to, lets say, the top of the head. Then I more the attention through the body, part by part noticing all sensations, or absence of sensation. This process can feel like there’s a me that's moving the attention from part to part. It feels like I can choose to stop the moving and let attention rest wherever I choose. But if I try this with breathing, the bodies automatic breathing takes (thankfully) so it seems clear to me that my believe that I can stop/start attention is deluded.

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

All explained in my comments above.

Thanks again Rali for your guidance in this inquiry.
Dot

[poppyseed]

Hi Dot

Thank you for bearing with me while I keep used to the flow of messaging. This challenged me, but there's something to work with.

Good—challenge means something is being seen.

The 'what' feels like a thought based on the sort of person I think myself to be. With my responses about finishing/not finishing, it feels like I’m communicating something along the lines that I’m the sort of person that likes to see something through and not one who gives up, even if it's hard. This is a repeated pattern in my life. The energy that accompanies that attitude has served me well in my past life, to achieve and grow. I can also see that it also keeps me trapped in patterns of being that are less/no longer helpful.

Yes—this pattern of identifying with persistence, of "seeing things through," has been useful, but is it necessary for what is happening here? If there’s no one to finish or not finish, is inquiry something that can even be "completed," or is that just another layer of assumption? What happens when the impulse to "finish" is left alone, without resistance or engagement?

But here’s the paradox, sometimes it feels like there’s something in me that watches the thoughts as they arise and pass away. Other times, especially around problem-solving, when ‘directed’ thinking is needed, it can feel like there’s something in me thats directing the thinking. An example would be in meditation when I’m surveying my body for sensations. I start by bringing attention to, lets say, the top of the head. Then I more the attention through the body, part by part noticing all sensations, or absence of sensation. This process can feel like there’s a me that's moving the attention from part to part. It feels like I can choose to stop the moving and let attention rest wherever I choose. But if I try this with breathing, the bodies automatic breathing takes (thankfully) so it seems clear to me that my believe that I can stop/start attention is deluded.

Yes, the illusion of control seems to be arising in some areas while clearly dissolving in others. We’ll look at the paradox you describe in more detail. Let’s make sure that you know how to LOOK for no self in the exercises. You already have an idea, but just in case...

There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Love
Rali

[dottymoo101]

Hi Rali,

Yes—this pattern of identifying with persistence, of "seeing things through," has been useful,
but is it necessary for what is happening here? 

Mmm… “seeing something through” – I suppose this implies that something is worked on until it is completed. Which raises the question, can an inquiry ever be completed. I guess it can come to an end, but not be completed. Completion sounds definite, concrete, solid. I suppose “seeing something through” is loaded with expectations that the thing being investigated will be 'seen through' and ideas about what a completion point might look like. And that’s not helpful or what we’re doing here is it? This is an open inquiry with no start, no end, only this. Thanks that’s been helpful.

If there’s no one to finish or not finish, is inquiry something that can even be "completed," or is that just another layer of assumption?

See above comments. Sitting with it, it does feel like an assumption on my part. A deeply rooted tendency or habit to see through things, to understand things.

What happens when the impulse to "finish" is left alone, without resistance or engagement?

It feels like putting something down. It feels pleasant, my body relaxed a little. It felt like the inside of my head relaxed a little. A smile arose and a sense of everything is OK.

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Right.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I think I'm clear, we’ll see as we proceed.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience.

This is very helpful.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known

Just to clarify - does this mean taste labelled ‘apple’ is just taste arising that we label apple??

Likewise for:

Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is just seeing arising we label apple?
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched) is just feeling arising we label apple?
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known is just taste arising we label apple?
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known is just thought arising we label apple?

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

If direct experience is only seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling and thoughts (not content), apple cannot be found in actual experience. Apple is a bunch of labels. Assumptions. Then it must be like this for every object right?

Applying the exercise to my mobile phone:

Colour and shape (visual information) lablled phone is known
Sensation (when touched) lablelled phone is known
Sound (when rings) labelled phone ringing is known
Thought about/of phone is known

With grattitude,
Dot

[poppyseed]

Hi Dot

And that’s not helpful or what we’re doing here is it? This is an open inquiry with no start, no end, only this. Thanks that’s been helpful.

Yes, exactly—can there ever be a final, solid "completion" when it comes to direct looking? Or is it only thought that expects an endpoint, while this unfolding remains simply... as it is, without a boundary? If there's no start or end, is there even a "path," or just this timeless inquiry?

It feels like putting something down. It feels pleasant, my body relaxed a little. It felt like the inside of my head relaxed a little. A smile arose and a sense of everything is OK.

Beautiful. Notice how nothing had to be resolved, no conclusion had to be reached—just the simple seeing, and something relaxes. Is there anything missing right now? Or is this already complete, just as it is?

Just to clarify - does this mean taste labelled ‘apple’ is just taste arising that we label apple??

Yes—exactly. The taste itself doesn’t say “apple.” There’s just raw sensation, and then a label is applied. Look directly—before the label “apple” appears, what is actually there?

If direct experience is only seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling and thoughts (not content), apple cannot be found in actual experience. Apple is a bunch of labels. Assumptions. Then it must be like this for every object right?

Yes. Every "thing" is just a collection of labels and assumptions. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste).
Look now—where is an object outside of raw experiencing? Can you find anything other than colors, shapes, textures, sounds, and the labels that thought applies?
Again, explore only your first-hand experience, disregarding the thoughts about the object.
Where is the image of the object, is it inside or outside of you? If it is seen inside or outside, where is the border where the image crosses over from being outside to being inside of you? What does the border consist of? Is there a see-er and the seen, or simply seeing or the seen? What happens when this is deeply recognized?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

[dottymoo101]

Hi Rali,

can there ever be a final, solid "completion" when it comes to direct looking? Or is it only thought that expects an endpoint, while this unfolding remains simply... as it is, without a boundary? If there's no start or end, is there even a "path," or just this timeless inquiry?

It’s all thoughts – ‘completion’, ‘start’, ‘end’ – fixing things. Even if there were a ‘path’, there’d be no walker!

Is there anything missing right now?

When it comes to direct experience, nothing is missing, only identification with the contents of thoughts can lead us to feel/believe something is missing.

Or is this already complete, just as it is?

It’s neither complete not not complete, it’s just is.

before the label “apple” appears, what is actually there?

To explore this I sat in my lounge with my eyes closed, then I opened them and slowly scanned the room. As my eyes made contact with ‘objects’, the mind is labelling so fast no gap is perceptible between seeing and labelling. So I tried it with sound ‘objects’ . What seemed to happen is a sound arises and is perceived by hearing, followed by a process of recognition, that doesn’t feel like anything to do with me, it’s all happening by itself. Fairly quickly the mind will label it as, e.g. a car, or just sound, if the sound is indistinct and the mind can’t label it. So it’s like an ear consciousness that meets sound then hearing arises then labelling. It’s pretty difficult to see that with seeing, because the mind punches out labels so quickly for all it recognises, which seems to be pretty much everything it contacts through seeing. Having said that, my eyes have just landed on something the mind can’t label, all there is, is colour and shape.

Yes. Every "thing" is just a collection of labels
Look now—where is an object outside of raw experiencing? Can you find anything other than colors, shapes, textures, sounds, and the labels that thought applies?

Outside of direct experiencing, there are no ‘objects’, just a thought labelled ‘objects’

Again, explore only your first-hand experience, disregarding the thoughts about the object.
Where is the image of the object, is it inside or outside of you? If it is seen inside or outside, where is the border where the image crosses over from being outside to being inside of you? What does the border consist of? Is there a see-er and the seen, or simply seeing or the seen? What happens when this is deeply recognized?

Going back to apple. In DE, without thought, an image of an apple cannot be found. There is no image in seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling. Image in a thought.. Inside and outside and border cannot be found in DE, they’re all concepts.

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.

For example, when having breakfast in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a bowl, simply = colour (seeing)
Tasting the breakfast, simply = taste (tasting)
Feeling the cold of the bowl, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the spoon against the bowl, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about eating breakfast, simply = thought (thinking)

For example, when cleaning my teeth in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing toothbrush & toothpaste, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling toothpaste, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the bristles on gums and teeth, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the toothpaste, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the bristles against my teeth, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about cleaning my teeth, simply = thought (thinking)

For example, looking at the logburner, become aware of:
Seeing the logburner, simply = colour (seeing)
Feeling the warmth from the logburner, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the whirring of the fan sitting on top of the logburner, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about sitting in front of the logburner, simply = thought (thinking)

For example, feeling happiness, become aware of:
Feeling warmth and expansion in chest, simply = sensation (feeling)
Thought I’m happy, simply = thought (thinking)

With thanks,
Dot

[poppyseed]

Hi Dot
Beautiful looking!!!

To explore this I sat in my lounge with my eyes closed, then I opened them and slowly scanned the room. As my eyes made contact with ‘objects’, the mind is labelling so fast no gap is perceptible between seeing and labelling. So I tried it with sound ‘objects’ . What seemed to happen is a sound arises and is perceived by hearing, followed by a process of recognition, that doesn’t feel like anything to do with me, it’s all happening by itself. Fairly quickly the mind will label it as, e.g. a car, or just sound, if the sound is indistinct and the mind can’t label it. So it’s like an ear consciousness that meets sound then hearing arises then labelling. It’s pretty difficult to see that with seeing, because the mind punches out labels so quickly for all it recognises, which seems to be pretty much everything it contacts through seeing. Having said that, my eyes have just landed on something the mind can’t label, all there is, is colour and shape.

Beautiful exploration. You’re directly seeing how perception and labelling arise effortlessly, without a "you" doing it. The labelling process is automatic—just a habit of thought/conditioning.
Now, stay with this moment when the mind can’t label what is seen. What is actually present in direct experience? Is there any “thing” there at all, or just seeing (colour and shape), without separation, without inherent meaning?
Without the label, is there an object? Or just experiencing/what IS/this? I like this as it is more like a pointing word, like an arrow to what is silently happening right now, and now… (free from conceptual elaborations and the subject–object distinction).
Also… What is recognition in direct experience?
Look closely—does recognition happen to someone? What is there to be recognized, other than this?

When a sound arises and is “recognized,” what exactly is happening? For example, the sound of "birds chirping"... Does the sound have any birds in it? Is there a moment where there is just sound, and then suddenly a knowing of what it is? Does recognition/labelling come as a separate event?
If you stay with something that isn’t immediately recognized—before a label appears—what is different?
Is there an actual thing waiting to be identified, or does the mind’s labelling create the sense of a distinct, recognizable something?
Look at an unfamiliar shape or listen to an unknown sound—before a label arrives, what is there? What is the raw experience, without assuming something needs to be recognized?
Here a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJyUtbn ... 4&index=35

Assuming that you are not a biologist, observe how random shapes are moving. Watch how thought is trying to figure out what is what (recognise), trying to find relationships and create stories. Look what is really here…

Furthermore, notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought, "Those are birds." Notice the habitual thought, "I hear that." Now just pay attention to how hearing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound? Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening? Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the hearing of it and a separate entity, a "you"/"awareness" doing the hearing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I"/Dot/awareness/entity and hearing and a sound (of birds)? Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer in any shape or form?
So which one of the following describes best DE:
1. I am hearing sound
2. hearing sound
3. hearing

Love
Rali