Trying to see

[Bovary56]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
From what I understand, 'self' is something that feels inherently substantive, but is in fact illusory. I might consider my thoughts or my actions to be 'self', or at least caused by a self, yet behind these sensations, there isn't anything I can find that is distinctly 'me'.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for guidance on actually 'seeing' the reality of no self. When I was first exposed to this idea, I felt I was able to rationally agree with it. However, I soon realized I had done nothing more than replace one unsubstantiated belief with another. I concluded that as long as I was unable to directly experience the lack of self, I would never be able to overcome the doubt that I really understood what a lack of self means. What piqued my interest in LU was its claims to help see directly that there is no self in a no frills and no nonsense way, rather than dogmatically espouse it as a belief, as so many other spiritual practices and movements seem to do.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm looking for guidance at regular intervals to help me see that there is no self. While I've tried to see through the illusion of self on my own, I find myself going off in directions that end up leading nowhere, leaving me with the feeling that I'm wasting my time. Far from just that, the distractions of daily life make it hard to commit to seeing through the illusion. I think having someone to 'keep my eye on the ball' will go a long way in helping me see through this illusion sooner rather than later.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been meditating on and off for the better part of a year. With the loose guidance of a friend who has been through this program, I've attempted to see that there is no self during meditation and regular life.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 8

[Anastacia42]

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

Finals are certainly a good reason for a delay.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[Bovary56]

Hello Stacy!

Thank you for your offer to be my guide, which I will gladly accept. To confirm, I have read the disclaimer.

I’ll go through the questions one by one.

How will life change?

I don’t think life will change that much in the short term, but I do hope to see some benefit in the long term, such as having better relationships or having an easier time dealing with life's difficulties.

How will you change?

If this is about seeing what is already there, then I expect “I” won’t change, just the perception of myself.

What will be different?

I expect I’ll experience life and my own perspective in a more truthful way, whatever that might feel like.

What is missing?

I’ve yet to get rid of the doubt that there is no self. I haven’t had that “aha moment,” where things become unequivocally clear. As I understand it, I should actually be able to see no self, not just think it.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Bovary56 or simply Bovary is fine. My time zone is Eastern Standard Time, in the United States.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Bovary,

Mostly reasonable answers.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving

[Bovary56]

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

It makes a lot of sense. For most of my life I've attempted to 'find myself', yet I've never managed to unearth anything concrete. Definitions of self that I've clung to over the years have only led to insecurity and disappointment, and ultimately lack any substance. This has bothered me for a long time, so when I first read about there being no separate self, it seemed to align with my experience greatly.

[Anastacia42]

Great.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[Bovary56]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I'm clear on this.

[Anastacia42]

That's great. Show that you got it:



Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Bovary56]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Eating an orange:
Seeing the orange, simply = image/color
Hearing the peel rip, simply = sound
Feeling the peel, simply = sensation
Tasting the orange, simply = taste
Smelling the orange, simply = smell
Thoughts of peeling the orange, simply = thought

Swimming:
Seeing the water, simply = sight
Hearing splashes, simply = sound
Feeling the cold water, simply = sensation
Tasting the chemicals of the water, simply = taste
Smelling the chlorine, simply = smell
Thoughts of keeping track of my laps, simply = thought

Making ramen:
Seeing the ramen, simply = sight
Hearing the boiling water, simply = sound
Feeling the warmth of the bowl, simply = sensation
Tasting the ramen, simply = taste
Smelling the ramen, simply = smell
Thoughts of eating the ramen, simply = thought

Walking to work
Seeing the sidewalk, simply= sight
Hearing the noises of passing cars, simply = sound
Feeling the cold outside air, simply = sensation
Smelling car exhaust, simply = smell
Thoughts of being on time to work, simply = thought

[Anastacia42]

Excellent. You've got it.

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving

[Bovary56]

Here is the exercise finally. Sorry I was a bit late on this one, I'm staying with my parents over the holidays and I've had a bit less free time than I thought. I was confident I would be able to get it in earlier today (or yesterday at this point), however my parents needed quite a bit more from me than I expected, combined with trying to meet up with some hometown friends I haven't seen in a while. Apologies, I should have let you know about this in advance. I should hopefully have more free time tomorrow so I'll get a post in then. And while we're on the subject, I'll also let you know that I'll be doing some traveling between the 6th and the 10th of next month, so I might be a bit scarce then. I have no stipulations about posting over that time, but sometimes things can get hectic. Hope you are having a good holiday season, and sorry once more for being late on the response.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second 10 minutes of labeling felt truer, or at least certainly different. They seemed far less mediated by my thought, and because of that, the descriptions felt much more closely linked to what was actually going on rather than a disconnected statement

2. What is here without labels?

I’m tempted to say that without the labels, there is simply ‘what is’. Although I would say both descriptions are the result of thought. The first set of thoughts acknowledged self while the second set did not. A better description perhaps?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

From what I got out of this exercise, it does feel like the labels affect the experience. I felt a greater sense of objectivity towards the unlabeled descriptions.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

The distinction between sensations from the outside world and sensations from my own body seem to break down somewhat during the second 10 minutes. I also felt like I was much more aware of bodily sensations during the second 10 minutes as well, and I felt more neutral and relaxed towards those sensations.

[Anastacia42]

Don't worry so much. Just post when you can.

Your answers are mostly good. but there are 2 follow-up pointers. One to see whether labels actually affect experience & one to see what those body Sensations show you.


Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.


Loving,

[Bovary56]

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Looking at the label, I read the word ‘GREEN’, which appears as thought, and I see the color red.

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

I experience only the color red by looking at the label.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

The label doesn’t suggest that anything else is there besides red. It does not affect the color of itself by stating a different color.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

Green is not associated with the experience of the color red. When I look at the label, all I see is the color red. Reading the word might make me think of the color green or imagine things that are green, but this is a separate experience from seeing the color red.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No, red is not changed in any way.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The labels have no affect whatsoever on the "goodness" or "badness" of red.

[Anastacia42]

Great. That clarifies #3 in the previous pointe4.

Now something to clarify the Body Sensations in #4.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[Bovary56]

What is found?

When lying, I feel a tight, contracted feeling in my gut. There is an overall heaviness in my body. If the lie is bigger, or to someone I care about, I feel my heartrate increase and my breathing becomes difficult. My body can feel weaker and physically off kilter. Certainly not a peaceful feeling. When speaking a lie to someone, my lips feel slightly held back as the words exit my mouth, and there's a mild dissociative feeling.