Will Look Until Lost or Found

[Stultus]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I interpret this to mean that what "I" think of as self is an artifact of thinking. That my being observes thinking and this self, but does not think nor is it this self. "Being a self" is a persistent illusion, in this sense.

What are you looking for at LU?
I have glimpses of effortless awareness, of dissociation from mind/emotion/body. I have had an experience of great bliss (a long time ago). I experience glimpses of insight, intuition, telepathy, precognition - which I tentatively consider momentary communion with the Body of Wisdom (assuming the Kosha model). I consistently feel I am right on the edge of an understanding but never reach it. As you can see, this answer is a story riddled with "I"s - I have difficulty disentangling from my story. My intuition has guided me to a place where I consider effortless awareness and non-dual being is very likely the key I've been looking for.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I want to wake up to what "I" am. Alone, I feel I continually loop back into mental constructs and conceptualization. I am hoping a guide can give me a nudge. The experience of and interaction with someone who embodies what I hope to may be all I need.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I tend to think of myself as an explorer rather than a seeker - I've been trying to map and understand whatever the hell "this" is. Inspired by books from the library, I started experimenting with magic, meditation, trance induction, etc. when I was a child. I experienced an unexpected immersion into bliss when experimenting with walking mantra meditation when I was 15. Had astral projection experiences when in my teens (none since). At times I have "been" a Zen practitioner, Reiki Master, Hypnotist, Chaos Magician, Shaman, etc. I am now 58 years old and have been continually exploring my entire life. Lately I have been quite taken with non-Duality and Effortless Awareness as a key to reaching some sort of sense of Truth but have difficulty getting out of my head.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[graceabounds]

Hello!

Thanks for your patience in waiting for a guide. I resonated with what you wrote and would be happy to be present in this inquiry with you. Before we start I’d like to check in with you about two things:

1)

Please read both the following documents from LU carefully and let me know if you have any questions, doubts or reservations in regards to them:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


2)

I enjoy working with people who are highly motivated for this process and want to do exercises/look at questions and stay in communication more or less every day until concluded. This is not about making it rigidly so, exceptions (travel, life lifing, etc) are welcome as we go along. So what I am checking in about now, is if this pattern of engagement feels right and is possible for you?

Looking forward,
Becca

[Stultus]

Hello Becca!
I have read the disclaimer and FAQ. The clear-headedness expressed there is part of what attracted me to this process. I have no questions, concerns, or reservations.
And, yes, I am not only willing but pleased to engage on this more or less daily until concluded.
Thank you.

[graceabounds]

Thanks Stultus,
(Is that the name you’d like me to use?)

A little housekeeping:

1 Please subscribe to this thread by clicking the little wrench icon above (dropdown says ‘subscribe topic’). This way you will receive an email when I reply.

2 Please also watch this brief video on how to use the quote function in this forum. Use this liberally to answer each question individually and reference anything in our communication.
https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ?si=z_CWDFiEqh6qlcaC

I want to wake up to what "I" am.

So let’s start here. With getting out any and all expectations related to ‘waking up’:

1. What will be different when you realize there's no separate self?
2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
3. What do you want not to happen?
4. What are you hoping for?
5. What is missing?

In gratitude,
Becca

[Stultus]

Thank you.

(Is that the name you’d like me to use?)

You can call me Steve.

1. What will be different when you realize there's no separate self?

I don't fully know but I am willing and eager to find out.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

i expect there to be a detectable change and for there to be a newfound clarity, but otherwise I don't really know what to expect.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I don't have any concerns about negative effects. I feel I have had glimpses of this and it isn't anything about it that I fear.

4. What are you hoping for?

I hope for a clearer experience or understanding of things as they are.

5. What is missing?

Clarity and understanding.

Thank you.

[graceabounds]

Hi Steve,

Thanks!

You mentioned clarity a few times.

I hope for a clearer experience or understanding of things as they are.

This is a good starting point.

In this dialogue you’ll be asked to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with honesty, and not relying on philosophy, thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience.

So to go back to your words, a clearer experience will be revealed in this way.

So now an exercise:
Please read and say to yourself several times: *There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be*

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed.

Don't try to get anything right, just share what is seen, unfiltered. Generally this process will be driven by seeing what is already happening, what is already the case. What is effortlessly seen while engaging questions and exercises is what is important. What you actually write me is secondary to that.

-Becca

[Stultus]

Thanks, Becca.

Please read and say to yourself several times: *There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be*
After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed.

I wanted to try this a few times, with some breaks between, before responding.
When I close my eyes and repeat out loud, "There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be":
- I hear the words as if spoken by someone else.
- I feel the movement of my jaw and tongue, but it is somewhat like witnessing the feel of the mouth of a ventriloquist dummy. This sensation is as if it is floating in the air beneath the sensation of some pressure in the eyes and sinuses.
- I feel some light tension in my forehead.
- I feel a constellation of sensations where my hands and feet are, and where my bottom is seated on the chair.
- I see odd blotches of very dim light, some spots and patterns,
- I hear the hum of a fan in the background to my right, behind me.
When I close my eyes and repeat the phrase silently, mentally:
- I hear the words but the "sound" is thinner, lighter, and seems to be located where I feel my forehead.
No thoughts arise when I do this, I just experience a pivoting and moving of attention from one sensation to the next, and sometimes multiple sensations simultaneously.
I will retry this occasionally throughout the day and will report if I experience anything occurring differently.

-Steve

[graceabounds]

Excellent looking Steve!

Staying in this exercise and Looking in this way, do any of these sensations indicate ‘me’?

Becca

[Stultus]

Hello Becca.

Staying in this exercise and Looking in this way, do any of these sensations indicate ‘me’?

When doing the exercise, there seems to be no sense of "me" at all.
It may not seem that way from reading the description of the experience but it is very difficult to describe what is experienced without reverting to talking about "I felt" or "I saw" or "my feet, my hands" but that isn't really how it is felt. It feels like if I were to try to avoid those "me-words" then it would be very difficult to describe what is experienced.
There is a sense of "centeredness" though. The feelings of hands, feet, forehead, etc. do seem to cluster around a point in space where it seems like I am experiencing them from. Similarly, when I hear the hum of a fan, I can place it to a point in space relative to where I seem to be experiencing it from. Which is to say, I guess, that I don't seem to have a sense of "me' during this, meaning a sense of being a personality, but I do seem to have a sense of being located somewhere in relation to the sensations-
-Steve

[graceabounds]

Great.

Yes, the subject-object construction of language is, let’s say, often unhelpful here. :)

But let’s look at what seems to be the most clear in what you describe, which is the sense of centeredness.

The feelings of hands, feet, forehead, etc. do seem to cluster around a point in space where it seems like I am experiencing them from.

Where is this point in space relative to the physical body?
Are you able to describe the sensation of centeredness in any way?
Is it fixed or does it move?
Does it come and go?

-Becca

[Stultus]

Where is this point in space relative to the physical body?

When my attention is on sound, the centeredness seems to be where the head is - the sounds are coming from directions relative to my head. When I shift to awareness of the hands, the centre seems to shift too - it seems to go to the hands. If I open the awareness to the hands, feet, seat, etc. simultaneously, then the centre seems fuzzier and situated in my belly or chest.

Are you able to describe the sensation of centeredness in any way?

It strikes me that I don't actually feel this centre. I think it may be a "phantom", like an illusion created by what seems to be the locations of the sensations. Like the sensations are like the surface of a shape and I'm filling in the area surrounded by the sensations.

Is it fixed or does it move?

It seems be in different places and sizes depending on what sensations I am focused on.

Does it come and go?

It isn't stable. If I'm focused on a single sensation, I seem to not be aware of it. - I can be aware only of the sensation. It is only when I am aware of multiple sensations at once that they appear to cluster around a centre point.
-Steve

[graceabounds]

Nice looking.

Is there a Self located/to be found in any of this?

I think it may be a "phantom", like an illusion created by what seems to be the locations of the sensations

Interesting observation given that the ‘objective’ of this dialogue is to come into recognition of the absence something that doesn’t exist.

-Becca

[Stultus]

Is there a Self located/to be found in any of this?

When I do the exercise, while I'm doing the exercise, I can say that there is no Self detected. I experience a movement of awareness and what seems like a reception of sensations (though not really a reception, just a shifting awareness, really - one sensation replaces the previous - the word "reception", I think, is a concept/overlay). I don't talk myself through it, just experience it, even with the repetition of the "There is no self..." phrase.
It would be easy for me to convince myself that there is no Self found in this. But if I step back from it and think about it, I can have coins in my pocket and carry them around all day and only be aware of them when I put my hand in my pocket or need them to purchase something. Not being consciously aware of something doesn't mean it isn't there. Similarly, I see through my eyes without seeing my eyes (unless I see their reflection in a mirror.)
I know the intended focus here is on experience and not concepts, and please know I am not being argumentative, just noting the thought that arose in response to the question.
I had the "opportunity" of waking with a headache this morning. When I do the exercise with a headache, the pain of the headache is experienced differently than other sensations. It feels very insistent, personal. It does not feel impersonal. The feel of my hands when sitting in contemplation can feel quite similar to the sound of the fan, impersonal. This is not so much the case with the pain of a headache (though I do feel somewhat detached from the pain when doing the exercise in a way I do not when not).

[graceabounds]

Hi!

Not taking it as argumentative.This is how the process of inquiry naturally flows. Ok, no self HERE, but over here... is there? And we look there.

But if I step back from it and think about it,

just noting the thought that arose in response to the question.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.

Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

I had the "opportunity" of waking with a headache this morning. When I do the exercise with a headache, the pain of the headache is experienced differently than other sensations. It feels very insistent, personal. It does not feel impersonal. The feel of my hands when sitting in contemplation can feel quite similar to the sound of the fan, impersonal.

Was there a thought about the headache? Was the experience/sensation itself personal?
Not sure if this is answerable if it is not present, but if you can recall, though knowing that the memory itself is another thought.

-Becca

[Stultus]

Was there a thought about the headache? Was the experience/sensation itself personal?

I'm still experiencing the headache (though diminished) so was able to revisit. Perhaps "personal" is an interpretation. The pain of the headache is "sticky". Other perceptions (sounds, feel of hands, etc) fade in and out, appear and disappear, but the headache mostly becomes only less or more intense - doesn't disappear when my attention shifts elsewhere. There isn't any thought accompanying the headache (other than in trying to describe it). There does seem to be some moments when the sensation disappears, but that seems to get overrun when it reappears.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts...
Where are they coming from and going to?

Thoughts seem to just arise to awareness. Nothing before or after. So like emerging from silence or darkness.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Nothing. They seem either prompted by sensations (dog barking, song on the radio) or arbitrary (a flash of daydream).

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

It seems like if I were to direct my attention to something else, then perhaps a different thought would arise, but that is not really crafting the thought or choosing between thoughts. In fact, I don't really experience "directing my attention", it is more like a series of perceptions arise without me directing them, so even that seems like a misstatement or misunderstanding on my part.

Can you predict your next thought?

Hahaha. Nope! Not with any certitude or expectation of being correct.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

When I think of having a choice of thoughts, I see that is just a thought (and a singular one, not one of several choices).

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

I've felt that I could do this in the past, could shift my attention to something else. But this too seems just another thought and a thought that arises, not one that I'm "thinking" into being. I'm not really choosing to think in this way, it just seems to be a tendency in retrospect (also another thought).

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I can definitely fool myself into believing this - but when I look at what is going on, I can't detect where I am actually choosing or crafting the thought, just the thought arising taking credit for it in retrospect.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

This doesn't seem possible. I can't imagine how one can expect to control what one isn't yet even aware of.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Definitely it feels like any thought regarding the origin or order of thoughts is just yet another thought.

I had a related realisation about speaking a while ago. We tend to say "I said" as if we are the author of the words that come out of our mouths but that isn't the experience at all. When in conversation we don't sit in a back room in our head, weigh out words and sentences, arrange them like someone in a print shop laying out letters on a printing press, then push the words out our mouths to deliver them to the other person. We seem more like witnesses to what we say in a conversation than we are authors of what we say in a conversation. It strikes me that thoughts and thinking are similar. I seem to be witnessing thoughts, not "doing" them.