I Can't Find My Way Home

[Ghost]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Everything arises within and as awareness. Patterns of habitual perception and thought obscure this natural clarity, creating an illusion of confinement. Experientially, this manifests as a “center” or “subject”, distinct from and with abiding essence in an “outside world.” Seeing no ‘self’ is cutting through this illusion.

What are you looking for at LU?
Put simply, I want to recognize reality on demand. Firsthand glimpses of truth have revealed its ever-presence, yet these glimpses have been haphazard. To deepen and stabilize this recognition feels essential to freedom, but it cannot be stabilized if it can’t be accessed. How can I meditate when it feels like there’s a meditator? At LU, I seek guidance to realize no-self with the same naturalness as noticing the breath.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Stern and incisive guidance—a facilitator who can recognize my blind spots and help me direct or release effort accordingly. Someone equally passionate about truth and freedom, who inspires me to walk the path alongside them. Neither handholding nor pedagogy—just clarity and natural compassion. Ideally, this would culminate in the ability to see the absence of self whenever and wherever. With this foundation, my spiritual path can truly begin, and I can work toward stabilization.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’ve had a daily practice for around 10 years, mostly casual. Two years ago, I quit my job to engage deeply in practice. Since then, I’ve accumulated 6–8 months of retreat experience across Soto Zen, Sanbo Zen, Tibetan Buddhist, and Theravada traditions. I’ve received pointing-out instructions from Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachers such as Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Mingyur Rinpoche, and Loch Kelly. My studies also touch on Advaita Vedanta and Stoicism.

I’ve had several glimpses of no-self, but all of these moments have occurred haphazardly. Some have been while on retreat, some have been outside of retreat. Some have been while formally meditating, some have been while going about regular life activities. Despite these glimpses, I often live in a dualistic way, subtly convinced of a separate, abiding self. This isn’t just about stabilizing recognition, but accessibility. I know, intellectually and from memory, what I truly am (or am not), but I can’t seem to experience it on demand… I can’t find my way home.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[jefe2060]

Hi, I’m Jeff and I’m honored to offer myself in service to you. I will be your guide here at LU if you would like.

Here are some housekeeping guidelines:

1. I suggest you post your replies to the questions I will ask you within one or two days (max) of receiving them. I will respond (at least) by acknowledging receipt of your answers as close to when you post as I can, depending on whatever time zone differences there may be for us and my schedule, although I may take a little longer to compose my full response to you, depending on their content. Whatever the case, I will keep you updated in a timely fashion. If you must skip a day or so for some reason, please post and let me know when you plan to return. I will do the same.

2. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

3. If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link: http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

4. Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link: http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

5. There is no one judging anything you might say here, and the process really can only work if you are completely honest. I have also served many people on a confidential basis as a helping professional, so please feel at ease.

6. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

7. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing what there is to see here. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but it’s not necessary for this exploration.


8. Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. I suggest that you copy and paste our entire dialog here – all of my questions and all of your answers – into a separate word processing system, do your work there, and then copy / paste them back here into your thread. I repeat: always save a copy of what you are doing here: it will save time in the long run.

I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Even if I forget to use blue text, please answer all of the questions I ask you.

Please answer all questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Also, Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."


What would you like me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Let’s begin.


In your own words, please answer the following questions:



(1) What are your expectations about this exploration?

(2) How do you think life will change?

(3) How will you change?

(4) What will be different?

(5) Is there anything else you would like to say?


Thank you for allowing me to be of service to you.

In friendship,

Jeff


I slept and dreamed that life was happiness.
I woke, and found that life was service.
I served, and found in service, happiness is found.

- Rabindranath Tagore

[Ghost]

Hey Jeff,
I would love to have you as a guide. My gratitude for your time and energy for what you do.

3. If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link: http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

I have read the disclaimer.

What would you like me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Please call me Ghost. I am on EST (GMT-5) until Monday, December 10th. I will then be on Indochina Time (GMT+7) for a while. There may be a delay in my response time during this period as well due to travel.

(1) What are your expectations about this exploration?

When I look, I notice several things:
- I am trying to have no expectations, in order to be as open and receptive as possible
- I actually have a couple, despite this
- I expect it "not to work", a light sense of resignation or skepticism
- I want to be "saved", despite knowing that this is ultimately an ordinary and unglamorous realization
- There is a subtle trust in this inquiry, that just on the surface of awareness is a very available fundamental truth

(2) How do you think life will change?

Like I wrote in my original post - the tendency is to slip back into conditioned ways of being. The availability of truth doesn't engender living from it. I think it will simply clarify the work I need to do, not complete it.

(3) How will you change?

I guess I don't know. It seems there is a sort of paradox. Those who practice this realization seem to express similar qualities - wisdom, compassion, lightness, peace. They're also still just people. I'm just a person. When I've realized in the past, for a moment I could see that I'm not inside my body, but everything is inside "me"... and then no more than five minutes later I was back to being judgmental and anxious and whatever else arose. So I suspect the lower-case "me" re-asserts itself, needing to be coaxed and melted over time while the upper-case "Me" never actually changes at all.

(4) What will be different?

In Zen, it is said "In the beginning, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers; later on, mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers; and still later, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers." If it has always been this way, nothing really "changes". Then again, it feels very different to be trapped in an emotion rather than noticing it. I think perspective changes, subjective experience. Everything still comes and goes, but with deeper recognition this is seen with eyes of clarity rather than being swept about by it all.

(5) Is there anything else you would like to say?

In your recommended reading, one of the "Liberation Unleashed is not..." bullets says "This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness." I think I have some deep rooted belief that it is. I don't think it is about endless pleasure or anything like that, but isn't it a different state of consciousness to recognize reality as opposed to being lost in delusion? Not dramatically different like being high, but different. Another one says "This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person." I don't know about holy, but I do think it would be nice to be kinder to others. Perhaps as you wrote, "in service".

I've done my best to report accurately my experience right now. I was tempted to recite old or political answers, but tried not to. Thank you for what you do. I'm looking forward to talking more.

Warmly,
Ghost

[jefe2060]

Hi Ghost, nice to hear back from you. Thank you for your work and obvious commitment to this.

Here are some videos that might be helpful:

“Falling” by Ilona Cuitnate:
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

“Look with Honesty”
https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Urc

Here, too, is a simple exercise to help you see. Later, after some basics, we can look at a couple of key points in your first responses.

Colored Socks
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing "no self", it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment.

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Thank you for the opportunity to be of service.

In friendship,


Jeff


I slept and dreamed that life was happiness.
I woke, and found that life was service.
I served, and found in service, happiness is found.


- Rabindranath Tagore

[Ghost]

Hello again,
Let's continue!

“Falling” by Ilona Cuitnate:
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

Listening to this made me quite emotional. It captures this gradual shift I’ve been noticing in myself. Those moments of seeing were shocking to my system, terrifying even (like a fear of dying, which isn't altogether untrue). It seems like there needs to be time to allow a slower transition to this new mode of being. Also the gradual shedding of entrenched beliefs—I’m familiar with Byron Katie’s system.

Ilona talked about cycles of openness and contraction being normal, which felt reassuring. She also talked about meeting moments of contraction fully. I have a concept that meeting moments of contraction fully means that contraction is dissolved back into openness. My inability to do this is what brought me to this forum. I believe I'm carrying a sort of conceptual baggage here, as masters in various traditions have taught that all moments and conditions have the quality of emptiness/no-self/freedom — so when I don't directly experience it, it feels like I'm "missing the point".

“Look with Honesty”
https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Urc

This link appears to not be working.

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

This is clear. It's why I titled my post the way I did. Remembering or imagining no-self (thinking) is not direct or actual experience of it, just as a drawing of a mirror gives no reflection.

Warmly,
Ghost

[jefe2060]

Hi Ghost, thanks for your reply.
Sorry about the incomplete link to “Look With Honesty”. Here’s the functioning one:

https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c?si=yS6Fp1qyDDPlaTuL

I also suggest you take a look at these by Ilona. The first one is “Letting Go Of Fear”, and the second one is “Turning Fear Into Safety”, both of which would seem apropos for you given some of what you described in your previous post.

https://youtu.be/jKX1llYtlKE?si=jHXuuyyVtp7c-1R2
https://youtu.be/fSTT8nc8cvQ?si=Alcukpbi7SUlXpfi


Identifying Direct Experience: Labeling Daily Activities
Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought. So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup:
simply = image/color

Smelling coffee:
simply = smell

Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup:
simply = sensation

Tasting the coffee:
simply = taste

Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee:
simply = sound

Thought about drinking the coffee:
simply = thought

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Make several lists of your own observations in the *exact* format as like the one above, please.

Same word forms.
Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in my previous post if needed. Those are the only things any experience can consist of.

Peace

Jeff

I slept and dreamed that life was happiness.
I woke, and found that life was service.
I served, and found in service, happiness is found.

- Rabindranath Tagore

[Ghost]

Hey Jeff,

Sorry about the incomplete link to “Look With Honesty”. Here’s the functioning one:

https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c?si=yS6Fp1qyDDPlaTuL

Okay, I watched. Thanks for passing that along.

I also suggest you take a look at these by Ilona. The first one is “Letting Go Of Fear”, and the second one is “Turning Fear Into Safety”, both of which would seem apropos for you given some of what you described in your previous post.

https://youtu.be/jKX1llYtlKE?si=jHXuuyyVtp7c-1R2
https://youtu.be/fSTT8nc8cvQ?si=Alcukpbi7SUlXpfi

I watched both.

Identifying Direct Experience: Labeling Daily Activities

Eating dinner:

Seeing the soup and noodles:
simply = image/color

Smelling the vegetables and broth:
simply = smell

Feeling the heat of the soup, the soft ingredients, the hard spoon:
simply = sensation

Tasting the food:
simply = taste

Hearing the chewing, my breathing:
simply = sound

Thinking about my travel plans:
simply = thought

Watching the Turn Fear Into Safety Video

Seeing the video:
simply = image/color

Feeling the bed support me:
simply = sensation

Hearing the voices in the video and background noise of planes and the heating system:
simply = sound

Thinking about fear and emptiness:
simply = thought

Brushing my teeth:

Seeing my reflection:
simply = image/color

Smelling the minty toothpaste and water:
simply = smell

Feeling the electric vibrating brush on my teeth:
simply = sensation

Tasting the toothpaste:
simply = taste

Hearing the toothbrush, the water running:
simply = sound

Thinking about cleaning my teeth:
simply = thought

Typing my response to this:

Seeing the screen:
simply = image/color

Feeling the keyboard on my fingers and pressure in my seat:
simply = sensation

Hearing the keys click and a ringing in my ears:
simply = sound

Thinking about this exercise:
simply = thought

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in my previous post if needed. Those are the only things any experience can consist of.

So you say, better if I just check :P

I'm flying across the world tomorrow morning, so I may be slightly delayed on my response. Looking forward to talking more soon.

- Ghost

[jefe2060]

Hey Ghost, nice work, and hope you had a nice trip!
You got the Labeling Direct Experiences stuff clearly. Let’s move on with another look at labeling:

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen and paper. The exercise is broken into 10 minute lots.

For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”. For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

and

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Have fun!

Warm regards,

Jeff

[Ghost]

Hey Jeff! Thanks for the well-wishes. My Mind Labeling Experience is below, reminds me of noting. I wasn't sure if you wanted me to include my labeling, so I included it.

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

I am sitting on a couch
I am feeling pressure in my seat
I am hearing water trickling outside
I am feeling pressure in my skull
I am feeling my tongue in my mouth
I am swallowing saliva
I am looking at my writing
I am thinking about writing
I am breathing in
I am clenching my perineum
I am breathing out
I am hearing a plane overhead
I am feeling pressure behind my eyes
I am feeling my legs crossed
I am feeling tension in my shoulders
I am feeling clenching in my perineum
I am breathing in
I am thinking
I am thinking
I am breathing out
I am resting
I am breathing
I am resting
I am looking at reflections of light
I feel tension in my throat
I am clenching my perineum
I am laughing about typing that so many times
I am feeling a smile
I am feeling a breeze
I am breathing into my belly
I am feeling my stomach rise and fall
I am feeling itchy in my ear
I am feeling my fingertips write
I am resting
I am feeling pressure in my throat
I am hearing the water
I am hearing a bird
I am tasting my mouth
I am smiling
I am seeing
I am feeling tingling throughout my body
I am thinking
I am thinking
I am thinking
I am breathing
I am looking at the screen
I am breathing
I am thinking
I feel pressure in my stomach
I am thinking
I am breathing
I am listening to the water
I feel pressure in my eyes

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

Breathing
Clenching
Releasing
Thinking
Breathing
Resting
Clenching
Breathing
Hearing
Seeing
Feeling the keyboard
Breathing out
Breathing out
Breathing in
Releasing
Breathing
Releasing
Resting
Feeling itches
Feeling clenching
Feeling pressure
Feeling movement
Watching a dragonfly
Thought is happening
Pressure in the throat
Releasing
Relaxing
Breathing quickly
Feeling air in the nostrils
Feeling air in the torso
Clenching
Releasing
Hearing the water
Feeling the pressure of the seat
Pressure
Seeing
Breathing in
Thinking
Seeing leaves and light
Hearing fish splashing
Releasing
Breathing in
Air in the nostril
Pressure in the throat
Tension in the shoulders
Breathing out
Releasing
Feeling itches all over
Feeling hot
Leg is moving
Noise of a drop
Seeing a golden elephant statue
Thinking
Clenching
Releasing
Breathing in the mouth
Feeling dry in the mouth
Feeling pressure in the stomach
Releasing
Relaxing
Blinking
Pressure in the face
Pressure in the throat
Clenching in the body
Releasing
Swallowing
Breathing in
Air at the tip of the nose
Unclenching
Feeling hot
Feeling pressure in the eyes
Breathing out
Breathing out
Itch on the ankle
Holding on the out-breath
Feeling pressure of the seat
Feeling finger tips on the keyboard
Seeing
Hearing water
Hearing water
Tightness in the throat
Swallowing
Holding the in-breath
Pressure in the stomach
Breathing out
Thinking
Blinking
Typing
Releasing
Tension in the shoulders

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Yes, the second mode seems "truer". All of those things are simply happening.

2. What is here without labels?

I think I have to use labels to answer this. A sort of river of sense data and thoughts (and feelings, which seem to really just be more sense data). There feels to be some baseline level of discomfort with it too, wanting to run away or improve what is here. Also certain aspects I can't even pin down or "find" conclusively, like hearing and feeling. Seeing is a bit stubborn, though.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They seem like they actually kind of obscure it. I recognize simultaneously that they are doing this and that I can't let go of many of them. It seems like there is an innocent curiosity and wonder being obfuscated by these labels.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

No, I felt fairly equal measures of discomfort and moments of ease with both. It does feel a little annoying to put "I" or "I am" in front of what is happening though, which is funny to notice. I'll add that in the past when I have had glimpses, I remember my entire body felt released and relaxed - that just didn't happen this time for me.

Cheers,
Ghost

[jefe2060]

OK, nice Ghosting! ;>)


You’re doing great. Here comes another exercise to clarify things, which seems rather important, as you are doing some “good” seeing but equally “good” contradicting! Crazy making huh? You both see the emptiness of labels and your clinging to them. So this will be a nice reality check.


Label-Reality Correlation


There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.


When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?


Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?


Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?


Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the color red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?


If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?


Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?


Let me know what is SEEN.


In friendship,


Jeff



I slept and dreamed that life was happiness.
I woke, and found that life was service.
I served, and found in service, happiness is found.

- Rabindranath Tagore


Post by Ghost » Wed Dec 11, 2024 5:46 am
Hey Jeff! Thanks for the well-wishes. My Mind Labeling Experience is below, reminds me of noting. I wasn't sure if you wanted me to include my labeling, so I included it.
For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
I am sitting on a couch
I am feeling pressure in my seat
I am hearing water trickling outside
I am feeling pressure in my skull
I am feeling my tongue in my mouth
I am swallowing saliva
I am looking at my writing
I am thinking about writing
I am breathing in
I am clenching my perineum
I am breathing out
I am hearing a plane overhead
I am feeling pressure behind my eyes
I am feeling my legs crossed
I am feeling tension in my shoulders
I am feeling clenching in my perineum
I am breathing in
I am thinking
I am thinking
I am breathing out
I am resting
I am breathing
I am resting
I am looking at reflections of light
I feel tension in my throat
I am clenching my perineum
I am laughing about typing that so many times
I am feeling a smile
I am feeling a breeze
I am breathing into my belly
I am feeling my stomach rise and fall
I am feeling itchy in my ear
I am feeling my fingertips write
I am resting
I am feeling pressure in my throat
I am hearing the water
I am hearing a bird
I am tasting my mouth
I am smiling
I am seeing
I am feeling tingling throughout my body
I am thinking
I am thinking
I am thinking
I am breathing
I am looking at the screen
I am breathing
I am thinking
I feel pressure in my stomach
I am thinking
I am breathing
I am listening to the water
I feel pressure in my eyes
Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.
Breathing
Clenching
Releasing
Thinking
Breathing
Resting
Clenching
Breathing
Hearing
Seeing
Feeling the keyboard
Breathing out
Breathing out
Breathing in
Releasing
Breathing
Releasing
Resting
Feeling itches
Feeling clenching
Feeling pressure
Feeling movement
Watching a dragonfly
Thought is happening
Pressure in the throat
Releasing
Relaxing
Breathing quickly
Feeling air in the nostrils
Feeling air in the torso
Clenching
Releasing
Hearing the water
Feeling the pressure of the seat
Pressure
Seeing
Breathing in
Thinking
Seeing leaves and light
Hearing fish splashing
Releasing
Breathing in
Air in the nostril
Pressure in the throat
Tension in the shoulders
Breathing out
Releasing
Feeling itches all over
Feeling hot
Leg is moving
Noise of a drop
Seeing a golden elephant statue
Thinking
Clenching
Releasing
Breathing in the mouth
Feeling dry in the mouth
Feeling pressure in the stomach
Releasing
Relaxing
Blinking
Pressure in the face
Pressure in the throat
Clenching in the body
Releasing
Swallowing
Breathing in
Air at the tip of the nose
Unclenching
Feeling hot
Feeling pressure in the eyes
Breathing out
Breathing out
Itch on the ankle
Holding on the out-breath
Feeling pressure of the seat
Feeling finger tips on the keyboard
Seeing
Hearing water
Hearing water
Tightness in the throat
Swallowing
Holding the in-breath
Pressure in the stomach
Breathing out
Thinking
Blinking
Typing
Releasing
Tension in the shoulders
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
Yes, the second mode seems "truer". All of those things are simply happening.
2. What is here without labels?
I think I have to use labels to answer this. A sort of river of sense data and thoughts (and feelings, which seem to really just be more sense data). There feels to be some baseline level of discomfort with it too, wanting to run away or improve what is here. Also certain aspects I can't even pin down or "find" conclusively, like hearing and feeling. Seeing is a bit stubborn, though.
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
They seem like they actually kind of obscure it. I recognize simultaneously that they are doing this and that I can't let go of many of them. It seems like there is an innocent curiosity and wonder being obfuscated by these labels.
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?
No, I felt fairly equal measures of discomfort and moments of ease with both. It does feel a little annoying to put "I" or "I am" in front of what is happening though, which is funny to notice. I'll add that in the past when I have had glimpses, I remember my entire body felt released and relaxed - that just didn't happen this time for me.


Cheers,
Ghost

[Ghost]

Nice Jeffing to you!

I'll add that when I said I can't let go of many labels, I meant that they naturally assert themselves. It isn't out of a desire or belief that they're helping (at least a belief that I am aware of), it just seems to happen. If anything, I actively want to release them - they muddy the water.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

I see letters spelling a word I know to be correlated with a different color than the letters actually are. I see the color red, and think the word 'green'.

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

The color red is seen, the word green is thought. The color green is not experienced, as the label suggests.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

It's funny, my gut response is "yes" to the first part and the second part. GREEN is just as much reality as GREEN is, they're both expressions that happen. GREEN has a one-to-one correspondence with reality because it is written. However, like you say, the label suggests something else other than what is here when the color of the label is red.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the color red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

Well in this case, it was the expression of the color red. The letters G R E E N needed to be written in order for red to show up through them.
Insofar as we make sense of the color red through the word 'red', the word 'green' is not typically associated with the color red. Actually it seems clear that words don't really matter, color is just experienced. Even calling green 'green' or red 'red' seems frivolous experientially, it only matters for communicating with others.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Certainly the redness is not affected in any way given what the words themselves are saying. I think there is also an association with red and bad, so seeing GOOD feels strange like seeing GREEN.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Writing GOOD and BAD, these are equal expressions of the color red. Similarly, any word & color combination seems to be an equal expression of reality. GREEN is no more true than GREEN or GREEN.

Let me know what is SEEN.

Colors are seen, irrespective of what form they take.

A nice colorful post for you to enjoy! I don't think the words are very important.
~Ghost

[jefe2060]

Hi Ghost, thanks for your work. Some comments (Italicized).

Q:When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?
Gh - “I see letters spelling a word I know to be correlated with a different color than the letters actually are.”
That’s not ACTUAL / DIRECT EXPERIENCE . “Know[ing] something to be correlated” isn't A/D E.


Gh - “I see the color red, and think the word 'green'.”
Good distinction! Brilliant, actually!


Q: Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
Gh - “The color red is seen. The word green is thought. ”
Yes. That’s A/D E.

Gh - “The color green is not experienced, as the label suggests.”
Right.


“Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?"
Gh - “It's funny, my gut response is "yes" to the first part and the second part. GREEN is just as much reality as GREEN is, they're both expressions that happen. GREEN has a one-to-one correspondence with reality because it is written. However, like you say, the label suggests something else other than what is here when the color of the label is red.”
No. Green doesn't have a one-to-one correspondence with reality.


“Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the color red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?”

Gh - “Well in this case, it was the expression of the color red. The letters G R E E N needed to be written in order for red to show up through them.”
No. Green is just a label that overlays the actual experience of red.


Gh - “Actually it seems clear that words don't really matter, color is just experienced. Even calling green 'green' or red 'red' seems frivolous experientially, it only matters for communicating with others.”

Yes. This is the whole point of the exercise. Everything else you did with it was besides the point.

"Let me know what is SEEN."
Gh - “Colors are seen, irrespective of what form they take.”
Yes. This is the point of the pointer.


All thoughts "just happen." That won't change.
You'll just stop believing them once you see that only Direct Experience is "real."
Labels don't affect Experience. That's the point here. You (mostly...uh...Ghostly?) seem to get that.

Now let's look into those Body Sensations.

.....

TRUTH VS LIES

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind of lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?


If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.


1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.


I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I" in one of the earlier exercises.


Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.


Do you see that?


Peace,

Jeff

I slept and dreamed that life was happiness.
I woke, and found that life was service.
I served, and found in service, happiness is found.

- Rabindranath Tagore

[Ghost]

Hey Jeff,

My responses below:

Q:When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?
Gh - “I see letters spelling a word I know to be correlated with a different color than the letters actually are.”
That’s not ACTUAL / DIRECT EXPERIENCE . “Know[ing] something to be correlated” isn't A/D E.

True, good catch.

“Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?"
Gh - “It's funny, my gut response is "yes" to the first part and the second part. GREEN is just as much reality as GREEN is, they're both expressions that happen. GREEN has a one-to-one correspondence with reality because it is written. However, like you say, the label suggests something else other than what is here when the color of the label is red.”
No. Green doesn't have a one-to-one correspondence with reality.

Sure it does, doesn't everything? By virtue of being experienced, it must have a one-to-one correspondence with reality. Otherwise we're positing some reality that exists "out there", and our failure to map onto it. As far as I can tell, GREEN fails a conceptual test, not an experiential one.

In other words, if we say GREEN should be GREEN, we overlook that is is GREEN.

“Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the color red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?”
Gh - “Well in this case, it was the expression of the color red. The letters G R E E N needed to be written in order for red to show up through them.”
No. Green is just a label that overlays the actual experience of red.

How can 'GREEN' overlay the experience of red here? Red appears through the letters that happen to spell another color. It couldn't overlay the experience of red, in this case it is the experience of red.


Clarification
I wonder if my attempt to highlight the inclusivity of experience is being misinterpreted as intellectualizing the exercise. My intention is to stay grounded in direct experience—do you see something I might be overlooking?

---

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

A funny example you chose. In college, as an experiment, I decided to try to answer "How are you?" with how I actually was doing at any given time. Needless to say it generally wasn't welcome, and the experiment was promptly truncated.

I don't think responding "Fine" is actually a lie, though. Rather, I think there's just a social contract that "How are you?" is generally more of a greeting, not a question. A call and response: "How are you?", "Fine, thanks" is like "Whats up?", "Nothing". Anyway, like you said, in the most essential way we are fine and nothing is up.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

The Lie: Telling a family member that I liked their partner (when I didn't), because I didn't want to hurt them
What is found: A cloud of tension in the torso and above - tightening stomach, cold contraction across the chest, clenched throat

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.


Do you see that?

Yes! Primarily contraction and heaviness are the sensations that accompany lying. I also notice a pattern of discomfort in my head, taking the form of pressure especially behind the eyes.

~Ghost

[jefe2060]

Helloooo Ghost The Friendly Ghost:

All good work so far. Remember “Colored Socks”? Please scroll up in our thread and read it again. Much like the point of the pointer itself, don’t refer to your thinking. LOOK.

In our task of seeing through the illusion of a “separate” self, Actual / Direct Experience is the only set of “glasses” we want to use to look with, not interpretive thinking. So if you find yourself drawn to “thinking about” stuff, shift back to LOOKING.

You are very good at finding A/D E. You have done it perfectly in each exercise…either before or after you mindbleep the whole situation with many “thinking things” (words).

Do this one now:

ButtChair

For this exercise, sit in a chair. Then, please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?


It is simple, direct, nonverbal. Just LOOK.

Then write what is true.

Warm regards,

Jeff

I slept and dreamed that life was happiness.
I woke, and found that life was service.
I served, and found in service, happiness is found.

- Rabindranath Tagore

[Ghost]

Jeff! Here we are.

All good work so far. Remember “Colored Socks”? Please scroll up in our thread and read it again. Much like the point of the pointer itself, don’t refer to your thinking. LOOK.

In our task of seeing through the illusion of a “separate” self, Actual / Direct Experience is the only set of “glasses” we want to use to look with, not interpretive thinking. So if you find yourself drawn to “thinking about” stuff, shift back to LOOKING.

You are very good at finding A/D E. You have done it perfectly in each exercise…either before or after you mindbleep the whole situation with many “thinking things” (words).

I think you’re still taking inclusivity as being lost in thought or, as you put it, “mindbleeping.” My point was simply that thinking itself—including mislabeling—is also A/D E. For example, “see red, think green” and “see green, think green” are both part of what’s here now in direct experience.

The way I see it, thinking is just as compatible with recognizing emptiness as anything else. Everything—even “wrong” things like mislabeling or lying—arises as part of emptiness, right? Clarity is the natural expression, but all things are seen as they are.

For this exercise, sit in a chair. Then, please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

There is a cloud of sensation - temperature, tingling, pressure. Boundaries are not articulated.

-Ghost