Realizing anatta

[Showki]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that one’s sense self is but an evolved illusion. Theories aside about why, seemingly, 99% of humanity embodies it, it’s an unnecessary construction that saddles our ability to live. It lies at the heart of why we suffer psychologically (dukkha), both as individuals and as a society. I’ve certainly had my share of dukkha in my own life

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking, in dialectical form, for “direct inquiry guidance (or assistance)” from somebody who's already awakened out of their sense of self. Their view from the "other side" might catalyze (or mediate) my own awakening. I'm not quite there yet, practice-wise, though I think I'm close. My practice has already yielded a significant transformational benefit.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope to benefit from the insight and guidance that somebody -who's already transcended their sense of self- could provide. I just need the penetrating perspective and feedback of somebody who "sees it from the other side" or alternatively can see where I am presently and help guide me out of whatever residual anatta resistance I still have.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’ve been a meditator and Buddhist practitioner for about 4.5 years. I think I’m getting close to embodying anatta at baseline, but I wanted to see if I could benefit from the guided model LU uses.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ty0]

Hi Showki, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU :). Let me know your name if you'd like me to call you that.

How much of what you've written do you actually believe? Do you really think you're at a certain point on a certain path that is close to some big, life-changing insight? Do you really think there are people out there who are "on the other side"?

Who are you without your identity as a spiritual seeker, meditator, Buddhist practitioner, etc.? What are you NOW, in direct experience, outside the content of thoughts, narratives, and imagination?

What do you think you're missing? I'm afraid the entire basis of your search may be imaginary.

Try this:
Meditate and drop in the question: "What's here that's not a thought?" If you have doubts about whether you're doing it correctly, note that these doubts are thoughts and return to the question. If you notice that there's silence after the question, note that the noticing of the fact of silence is a thought and return to the question. If you get frustrated, note that you're believing a thought like "this isn't working" or something similar and return to the question. Let me know how that works out for ya

[Showki]

Showki is a “half phonetic rendering” of Chawki. A full rendering would be Showkee. In text communication, Showki is fine.

Re: How much of what you've written do you actually believe?
I wouldn’t say “I believe it” so much as I would say that what I’ve written are just answers to the questions posed. I’d have answered them differently had I wrote them today. I don’t rest heavy on any of it. They’re just meant to give you some sense of what (or who) you’re guiding.

Re: Do you really think you're at a certain point on a certain path that is close to some big, life-changing insight?
It’s a working theory of where I am presently, given the positive changes that have already happened. Things feels close but that doesn’t mean they actually are. It’s just an intuitive sense, but only a sense.

I sometimes lose any sense of self, but only temporarily, i.e., I feel that I am something having experiences. With the infliction of stress (e.g., lack of sleep) it tends to come back. That sense of self locates, as best as I can tell, in the feelings of constriction in the body. When those are absent (or absent enough), I can abide fairly well in a feeling of emptiness.

Re: Do you really think there are people out there who are "on the other side"?
There are people who have enduringly transcended the sense of (separate) self, sure.

Re: Who are you without your identity as a spiritual seeker, meditator, Buddhist practitioner, etc.?
Something that experiences.

Re: What are you NOW, in direct experience, outside the content of thoughts, narratives, and imagination?
It feels like emptiness

Re: What do you think you're missing? I'm afraid the entire basis of your search may be imaginary.
It’s not that I’m missing something. It’s that I’m not reliably accessing what’s already there. I can access it in glimpses or intervals, just not consistently so.

Re: Try this.
Will do. I will meditate per your guidelines. 😊

[ty0]

Cool, nice to meet you Chawki. It's important to look at your direct experience when doing this investigation, and noticing when an answer is something imaginary.

It’s a working theory of where I am presently, given the positive changes that have already happened. Things feels close but that doesn’t mean they actually are. It’s just an intuitive sense, but only a sense.

How can you be at any point on any kind of path? What's a path? What's a specific point on it? What are you? Is any of this judgement about what's actually happening, and not just your imagination?

There are people who have enduringly transcended the sense of (separate) self, sure.

Well, practically, sure, grass is green and fire is hot, but those are just words for communicating direct experience. In this sentence you wrote, is there anything you're actually referring to that isn't your imagination?

Something that experiences.

Really? What is that which experiences? What even is "experiencing"? Is there such a thing?

It feels like emptiness

What are you referring to when you say emptiness?

It’s that I’m not reliably accessing what’s already there. I can access it in glimpses or intervals, just not consistently so.

What is here? What could be here that you're not able to access? What more could there be?

[Showki]

How can you be at any point on any kind of path? What's a path? What's a specific point on it?

Keeping all this strictly at the direct experiential level then, no, none of this has any standing.

What are you?

That which is aware of "my" sensory, body, and mental phenomena, that which is aware of them arising and passing away (as mediated by where my attention goes)

Is any of this judgement about what's actually happening, and not just your imagination?

None of it is about what's actually happening, no.

Well, practically, sure, grass is green and fire is hot, but those are just words for communicating direct experience. In this sentence you wrote, is there anything you're actually referring to that isn't your imagination?

No.

Really? What is that which experiences? What even is "experiencing"? Is there such a thing?

No, not in direct experience. Again, it's just awareness of sensory, body, and mind phenomenon arising and passing away.

What are you referring to when you say emptiness?

The sensory quality I abide in when I meditate.

What is here?

As before, it's awareness of sensory, body, and mind phenomenon arising and passing away.

What could be here that you're not able to access? What more could there be?

Agreed.

Re: Meditating on the question: "What's here that's not a thought?"

I noticed the emptiness, void, or the space itself-whatever you'd want to call it. [Thinking about it, you could consider those terms proxies for awareness]. I also noticed sensory input arising and passing away, e.g., sounds, body stimuli, sights-when my eyes opened and also thoughts as they arose and passed away.

[ty0]

You said "awareness" many times in this last post. What do you mean by "awareness"? What is awareness?

Keeping all this strictly at the direct experiential level then, no, none of this has any standing.

I'd like you to orient towards direct experience, because that's the only thing that we get. It's the believing the content of imagination that causes suffering, when all you have in experience is the fact of the thought appearing, like anything else.

When you say "body", what body? Are you just talking about sensations?

I noticed the emptiness, void, or the space itself-whatever you'd want to call it

I'm just asking this out of curiosity, can you describe this void more? There's nothing within my experience that I would describe as "emptiness", so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Also, why do you meditate on this?

What do you refer to when you use the word "I"? I know you said "it feels like emptiness" before. If that's still the case... what is that? What is it in your experience, and why should that be "you" as opposed to, let's say... the sensation of your foot?

[Showki]

You said "awareness" many times in this last post. What do you mean by "awareness"? What is awareness?

Having had the chance to ponder this further, awareness of a sensation in direct experience is a non sequitur. In direct experience, there is just the sound and that's it. So, I'm dropping the term.

I'd like you to orient towards direct experience, because that's the only thing that we get. It's the believing the content of imagination that causes suffering, when all you have in experience is the fact of the thought appearing, like anything else.

Acknowledged.

When you say "body", what body? Are you just talking about sensations?

Yes. Having reset my thinking, I'm now dropping the term 'body'. Strictly speaking, sensations are just sensations. That's especially evident when one's eyes are closed, in terms of sensations just arising and passing away, and also evident when one is careful not to a conflate a labeling thought with an actual sensation, e.g., this sensation is from my foot.

I'm just asking this out of curiosity, can you describe this void more?

When I meditate, I hear a background ringing or buzzing that evokes a sense of a large space or void, or a sense of "emptiness". The "sound" itself is a phantom sound.

Off topic: Ajahn Sumedho calls it the sound of silence. See https://www.lionsroar.com/the-sound-of-silence/ or https://youtu.be/rT_JdHIJ-sw?si=YXa_pk7aHWXfthzE. Not everybody who meditates hears it but apparently a fair amount of people do. My sister hears it as well.

At any rate, terms like void, space, or emptiness in this context are overlayed conceptualizations.

There's nothing within my experience that I would describe as "emptiness", so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Also, why do you meditate on this?

I suppose it gives my meditation "some mapping". I don't meditate directly on the sound much anymore. It just keeps me company. If I relax, I begin to hear it. It's a touch stone of sorts.

What do you refer to when you use the word "I"? I know you said "it feels like emptiness" before. If that's still the case... what is that?

See a few ticks above, but I suppose I anchor my 'I' there. Given that the guidance here orients towards nondualism, anchoring an 'I" there (identifying with it there) would be in line to be dropped.

What is it in your experience, and why should that be "you" as opposed to, let's say... the sensation of your foot?

Abiding there is a little more "reside-able" than a sensation in my foot.

[ty0]

When I meditate, I hear a background ringing or buzzing that evokes a sense of a large space or void, or a sense of "emptiness". The "sound" itself is a phantom sound.

Off topic: Ajahn Sumedho calls it the sound of silence. See https://www.lionsroar.com/the-sound-of-silence/ or https://youtu.be/rT_JdHIJ-sw?si=YXa_pk7aHWXfthzE. Not everybody who meditates hears it but apparently a fair amount of people do. My sister hears it as well.

Ah ok you mean ringing in the ears. Yeah I think most people hear that to some extent. I don't know why anyone would place special importance on this, though.

Given that the guidance here orients towards nondualism, anchoring an 'I" there (identifying with it there) would be in line to be dropped.

Well, I don't know about that, it's up to you. Or maybe it's not up to you, you can't really choose to drop yourself... I don't think it makes sense for this to be "you" as opposed to anything else in your experience though. It's like identifying with 1 sensation because it's more intense than another.

What are you looking for other than what's here?

[Showki]

Ah ok you mean ringing in the ears.

Yea, non-tinnitus ringing. I've had some transient tinnitus before. This ringing isn't that.

Yeah, I think most people hear that to some extent. I don't know why anyone would place special importance on this, though

It has good utility as a meditation object and/or mental tool. You can only hear the sound if your mind is focused and still. So, on a practical level, it's a good barometer of where you're at—mentally. I look for it when I need to still my mind. Conversely, if I hear it without trying, I know my mind's quieted.

Well, I don't know about that, it's up to you. Or maybe it's not up to you, you can't really choose to drop yourself... I don't think it makes sense for this to be "you" as opposed to anything else in your experience though. It's like identifying with 1 sensation because it's more intense than another.

I came to identify with the sound when I was young. So, it has a history and then it built into something more complex when I started meditating. Anchoring myself there when I'm meditating -inasmuch as I have come to build an 'I' there- enforces a certain dualism, i.e., there's me and I'm meditating.

At any rate, I'll play with it and see what happens.

What are you looking for other than what's here?

Nothing, ultimately.

More "locally", I've had some issue dealing with decompensated states, though I'm much better now. I'm on the autistic spectrum so, sometimes, my autonomic nervous system overloads, in the sense of having too much sympathetic tone (too much fight or flight, whether that's suddenly the case or whether it on-ramps over time). In that state, I sometimes struggle keeping my practice wits about me, i.e., just being with what's here, and end up suffering significantly.

The part that's especially difficult is the somatic dimension, e.g., tight chest, constricted visual field, a feeling that my body is overly constricted and solid. These sensations seem to localize and reinforce the sense of a separate me in space. There's lot of conditioning there that I'm trying to relax out of. I've made a lot of progress on that front with my practice. I'm much less constricted in those states than I used to be. It could be that it's just a matter of making more progress until I hit a threshold, i.e., a threshold level of experience practicing in these states?

In other words, deconditioning takes time?

Thoughts?

[Showki]

If my copy was too much outside the bounds of a direct experience context...

When I'm subject to the conditions I wrote about, is there a way to be with what's here that I'm not already doing by just failing, retrying, and improving? (When I say failing, I mean regressing to "self-ing" and suffering as a result).

In other words, it's just a matter of getting more familiar with the "practice terrain" under those conditions and getting better?

A 'practicing under varied conditions builds your practice skill set' kind of thing?

[ty0]

I think the question is what are you doing when you feel those states starting to come on and what are you doing when they're full-on. Are you trying to change it? Are you trying to "be with it" to make it go away? Are you trying to figure out what you should be doing so you don't have to feel the suffering that is present? Or rather, before much suffering is present, are you already suffering because you're imagining how bad things could go and trying to avoid it as best you can?

Of course, practice is immensely helpful in improving our sensitivity and mindfulness, but surrender is the most crucial thing. Sensitivity and mindfulness beget surrender. If you were fully surrendered to life already, you would have no need for practice. Notice when something is happening and you're having a "I don't like this, how do I change it?" mentality. You may be fooling yourself into TRYING to "be with what's here", when trying to do so is the complete opposite of actually being with what's here. All this trying perpetuates self-ing and suffering.

Even when you ask these questions, they're in an attempt to validate your approach so you can believe "things will get better in the future" so you don't have to feel doubt, hopelessness, etc..

The thing is, I can't give you actionable steps, because actionable steps are trying/doing, which is what I'm saying is counterproductive (Though, I'm not saying to drop your practice, do continue to practise). Surrender is not a thing YOU can do, nor is it something that can be DONE. "Being with what is" is not a thing YOU can do, nor is it something that can be DONE.

[Showki]

Thank you, Tyler, for your patience and the time you invest in guiding others. 🙏

I think the question is what are you doing when you feel those states starting to come on and what are you doing when they're full-on.

I’m resisting them.

Are you trying to change it? Are you trying to "be with it" to make it go away?

I’m resisting it the whole time and wanting it to be over while egoically assuming I’m “being with it”. It’s self-deception. I wouldn’t have written this last night. But, after having slept on what you wrote, that’s the honest answer.

Are you trying to figure out what you should be doing so you don't have to feel the suffering that is present?

Not in the moment but when I’m not in the thick of it, yes, I try to figure out what I should be doing to suffer less when the pressure is on.

But even then, I’m self-deceivingly not aware that selfing is fundamentally informing what I’ll be doing when things go awry, i.e., remember YOU should breathe, remember YOU should look for the ringing, remember YOU should relax your “body”. It’s a log jam of instructions that I just end up haphazardly and incoherently executing.

In the middle of it, I’m more of a deer in headlights. It’s like I’m half-freezing. In these moments, my sense of self feels hard and solidified in “the body”.

The ‘I’ is the PROBLEM, clearly.

Or rather, before much suffering is present, are you already suffering because you're imagining how bad things could go and trying to avoid it as best you can?

I try to keep some guidelines in place (see above) but I don’t catastrophize, no

Of course, practice is immensely helpful in improving our sensitivity and mindfulness, but surrender is the most crucial thing. Sensitivity and mindfulness beget surrender. If you were fully surrendered to life already, you would have no need for practice.

Agreed.

Notice when something is happening and you're having a "I don't like this, how do I change it?" mentality. You may be fooling yourself into TRYING to "be with what's here", when trying to do so is the complete opposite of actually being with what's here. All this trying perpetuates self-ing and suffering.

100% agree. See a few ticks above.

Even when you ask these questions, they're in an attempt to validate your approach so you can believe "things will get better in the future" so you don't have to feel doubt, hopelessness, etc..

Sure, but I’d be lying if I said things haven’t gotten better, especially in the last year and a half. So, I can’t say my approach is entirely unvalidated. This is not just my opinion, btw—my wife has noticed the changes, and friends of mine have noticed how much more present I am for them. I’m off my antidepressant as well and have managed not to burn myself out, etc.

THAT SAID, I am still selfing to a prohibitive degree. There’s no self here. I NEED TO DROP THIS SHIT.

Sleeping on what you wrote last night did unburden something after I woke up. Some thought-stuff fell off, I stopped believing that I had to head some stuff off in the future. Realized it was bullshit and the thoughts, their content, weren’t really real. Reminded myself as well that the future is only present in my head.

My progress to date has been of this flavor, this sense of shedding fragments, bit by bit, the validation being how much less dukkha I’m entangled with.

The thing is, I can't give you actionable steps, because actionable steps are trying/doing, which is what I'm saying is counterproductive (Though, I'm not saying to drop your practice, do continue to practice).

Ok.

Surrender is not a thing YOU can do, nor is it something that can be DONE. "Being with what is" is not a thing YOU can do, nor is it something that can be DONE.

Agree. I guess the question is: how would you point me in that direction?

[Showki]

One of the better developing practices I’m employing, one that correlates with a felt sense of unburdening or “letting go”, is no longer believing in egoic thoughts. The practice has gradually moved from seeing through given egoic thoughts (and the suffering associated with them) to, now increasingly, egoic thoughts as a whole. It typically takes several passes before an egoic thought is fully shed, but with each pass, the thought and its hold weakens, until eventually it falls away altogether.

I liken it to a “de-selfing”. I' think this relates to the notion of surrendering.

[ty0]

Agree. I guess the question is: how would you point me in that direction?

Notice that with beliefs being shed, there is less doing and less happening. As suffering lessens, nothing increases. How much you try is how much you suffer. How much you seek to know is how much you suffer. When you taste food, do you try to do anything about the taste? When you listen to music, do you try to do anything about the sounds? When you feel unpleasant emotions, what more is there to do than to just feel them? Feeling them isn't even a thing you can do, the emotions are already there, with nothing called "feeling" or a "feeler" in experience. Notice how you feel them less when you can distract yourself by and try to get away from them? So what's left to do when they arise?

The ‘I’ is the PROBLEM, clearly.

I wouldn't say so. 'I' is just a byproduct.

THAT SAID, I am still selfing to a prohibitive degree. There’s no self here. I NEED TO DROP THIS SHIT.

Why do you need to drop it? Why do you NEED to do anything?

[Showki]

Thanks for the reply! :) A little tied up today but I will get back to you tomorrow. 🙏