Time for the truth

[warissem]

Good evening

It still feels a bit strange and I have to keep reminding myself that thoughts just come and that there is no me doing it.

Instead of reminding yourself, just look at thoughts how they come and go. Thus to avoid to construct a belief of "no me". The key point resides in the LOOKING.

I invite you to do this exercise as many times as you can.

Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.

When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Best for you

[Susark]

I'm still doing this last exercise. Will write about it tomorrow. I have been busy touching, looking, smelling etc.

[warissem]

Waiting for your insights

[Susark]

I have found this difficult however now I have come to the conclusion that an apple can't be known. So nothing can be known except direct experience. For instance my husband who I have known for 55 years can't be known. I can experience things about him ut never know him. No other person can ever be known. As you say we can know colour, thoughts about an apple, taste of an apple and smell etc but that is all. Am I on the right track?

[warissem]

Good morning

As you see, concepts and labels are put on the experience, on what is here now, on what is seen, what is heard, what is smelt, what is tasted, what is touched or felt, on sensations, on feelings (a feeling = sensation+ thought), on emotions (an emotion = a movement of energy + thought). Notice that concepts and labels don't change the experience. Now, how about the separate self, me, you, I? Are they in the experience?

Waiting for your insights.

PS : use the quote function to select my question before giving the answers to it.

[Susark]

Now, how about the separate self, me, you, I? Are they in the experience?

I'm not sure if I am understanding this question correctly but this is what comes. If there is no separate self how can it be in the experience. The separate self is a concept or thought. Direct experience is what is felt, seen tasted etc but the separate self is a just thought or idea.

[warissem]

Hi Susark

Direct experience is what is felt, seen tasted etc but the separate self is a just thought or idea.

How do you feel after having seen that a separate self is a thought?

After having seen that, is there you in any shape or form? Was it ever?

After having seen that, are you still seeking?

What (to not say who) is knowing that a separate self is only a thought?

Ponder on each question and elaborate the answers.

Waiting for your insights.

[Susark]

I have had a busy few days as we are just beginning the process selling our house and moving from NZ back to Canada. I don't want to rush answering these questions so I need a few more days but I have started with the first one.

How do you feel after having seen that a separate self is a thought?

It feels right and makes sense to me and I understand how thoughts make it seem like there is a separate self however I wonder if I just understand this conceptually and don't know it at a deeper level.

The idea that there is a separate self is so pervasive after a lifetime of thinking of I did this, I am this etc. I am trying to watch my thoughts more and noticing how thoughts just arrive and how these thoughts build the idea of it being "me" thinking them.

I have realised for years that thoughts are not always true and that if they were believed they could lead to terrible results. If I have a worrying thought or a depressing one I realise it's just a thought and not true and the same with pride and thoughts about other people. I'm trying to see what is real and what isn't as I go about my day.

There is a sense of freedom that comes from knowing there is no separate self though. I am free from all those concepts and hang ups about "myself". I can just get on with being.

I will look at the second question tomorrow.

[warissem]

Good evening

Glad to read your answer, you are doing a good job here. Take the time necessary to ponder on each question : slowly but surely.

Best wishes and have a nice trip.

[Susark]

After having seen that, is there you in any shape or form? Was it ever?

No there is not me in any way or shape and has never been.

After having seen that, are you still seeking?

I am perhaps still seeking but not for a special experience but to round out the knowing. To understand it more and step into it fully. I have been watching one of the video series by IIona and found it extremely helpful.

What (to not say who) is knowing that a separate self is only a thought?

There is a sense of beingness/aliveness that is always there that knows.

One thing I have trouble with is to do with choices. Thoughts come, for instance I could have a good thing I could do or a bad thing. If there is no I doing the choosing and choosing just happens do I not have any control over whether I do good or bad things? I need to clarify this.

[warissem]

Hi Susark

No there is not me in any way or shape and has never been.

Great.

I am perhaps still seeking but not for a special experience but to round out the knowing. To understand it more and step into it fully. I have been watching one of the video series by IIona and found it extremely helpful.

Yes, we'll continue to investigate together for a while.

There is a sense of beingness/aliveness that is always there that knows.

Is it a sense or really an aware beingness? Is there a sense of what you are or you just are what you are? LOOK

One thing I have trouble with is to do with choices.

What is this "I" having trouble with choices ; do you see that the sentence above is just a train of thoughts? LOOK at this subtle identification.

Thoughts come, for instance I could have a good thing I could do or a bad thing. If there is no I doing the choosing and choosing just happens do I not have any control over whether I do good or bad things? I need to clarify this.

Yes, there is no you and it never was. I invite you to do this exercise about choice and let me know about your insights.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

Best for you

[Susark]

Is it a sense or really an aware beingness? Is there a sense of what you are or you just are what you are? LOOK

It's an aware beingness.

Yes, there is no you and it never was. I invite you to do this exercise about choice and let me know about your insights.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

They just pop up by themselves. I notice this also when I wake up in bed in the morning and am lying there. Suddenly I get up. I don't choose to get up, it just happens, often I find I am up before I even feel ready.

Sorry I have taken so long to reply. We have been busy getting our house ready to sell and have all the pre sale work done. Lots of sorting out and taking things to charity shops etc. Because we are moving country there was a lot of downsizing to do.

[warissem]

Hi Susark

Glad to hear from you.

How do you feel to see that there is you making choices?

I invite you to investigate the body. It is a strong pointer, I hope it will help.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Waiting for your insights

[Susark]

How do you feel to see that there is you making choices?

I didn't understand this question as I didn't feel there was a separate me making choices. I may have had a preference, which came from what I have been exposed to in my life. For instance I wouldn't opt to eat an insect rather than a chocolate but that is down to what I have been exposed and used to in my life. So I would say the preference just popped up.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No. Size, measurement is just a concept.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

This is the same. Weight or volume is also a concept.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Through sensation I can feel out a shape.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

It doesn't feel like there is a boundary when I am feeling the sensations.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
It doesn't feel like there is a boundary here either. I can feel the pressure but I don't feel much of a boundary between the feel of the chair and that of my hand against my face. Both are just sensations.

Is there an inside or an outside?

If I had a pain in my stomach it may feel like it's somewhere deep but it's still just a sensation.

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

Inside of my concept of a body.

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

My concept of a body.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

A lot of sensations.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Sensations

[warissem]

Good morning

About the first question, I mean "there is no you making choices". It is OK.
You have done good observations when practicing the exercise about the body.

Close your eyes : there are thoughts, mental images, sensations, sounds. Let everything come and let them go. There is no effort needed. This coming and going is like a flow : is the knowing of the flow separate from the flow? LOOK AT this till the true answer is SEEN.

Waiting for your insights