Please help me push through

[Scotty]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self is an illusion created by ourselves to protected and give order to our lives from a small age, but protecting that self breeds conflict and suffering.

What are you looking for at LU?
To help me push through the illusion of self. I can see (at least this morning) that seeing comes first and is absolutely primary, and that the feeling that we are responsible for our seeing is an illusion and that the self comes after and is an idea that we place on top.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A way to push forward. I feel I am simply experiencing my physical body and my sensations of the outside world without the feeling of self attachment, but I still feel responsible for "my" thought processes that "I" have to control them somehow.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've meditated on and off for 25 years, reading primarily Krishnamurti and Buddhist books.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Elad]

Hi !

I would be happy to do this inquiry with you. Before we start I wanna check in with you about two things:

1)

Please read the following documents from LU carefully and let me know if you have any questions, doubts or reserveations in regards to them:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

2)

I enjoy working with people who are highly motivated for this and want to do exercises/look at questions and stay in the corespondance more or less every day until we finish. This is not about making it rigidly so, exceptions (vacations, times where something else is called for, etc) are fine and in the end we will be guided by a flow beyond our decisions and imagination. So what I am checking in with here, is if this type of engagement feels right and is possible for you?

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Thank you very much for getting in contact with me and in general I want to thank you for being part of an amazing process which is helping people around the world.

I read through the links and would like to continue, I have no questions, doubts or reservations.

Thanks
Scott

[Elad]

Hi Scott, great, lets start!


Please watch this little video on using the quote function n the forum, to make our communication clear:

https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ?si=z_CWDFiEqh6qIcaC

When you answer my questions, quote them, and answer under the quotes.

And moving forward, please answer all questions in *blue*.

Let's begin from this sentence you wrote:

I still feel responsible for "my" thought processes that "I" have to control them somehow./quote]



Please do the following exercise: Observing thoughts

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

[Elad]

I misused the quote function... Here it is, in a clear form:


Hi Scott, great, lets start!


Please watch this little video on using the quote function n the forum, to make our communication clear:

https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ?si=z_CWDFiEqh6qIcaC

When you answer my questions, quote them, and answer under the quotes.

And moving forward, please answer all questions in *blue*.

Let's begin from this sentence you wrote:

I still feel responsible for "my" thought processes that "I" have to control them somehow.

Please do the following exercise: Observing thoughts

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Thanks for getting back to me so soon., I feel there has been a shift since my original post. Let me answer your questions and then add some general perceptions.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Thoughts arise depending on the current focus and then naturally fade. The new thought can also change the current focus causing a second thought starting a chain of thought.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

The concept or thing being focused on causes the thought to arise, but there is no "I" in control of this. The current focus seems to shift as mentioned above.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No it's clear to me that just how the sense of self was associating itself "seeing" (that I was seeing). It is the same with thinking (but stronger because "I" am very much attached to my thoughts as everyone has these concepts in the mind that the "I" is are very much attached to). It really feels the same as before, though I know I can't control the thoughts I still feel generally responsible for cleaning the mess up there.

Can you predict your next thought?

No this is clear to me

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No it's not possible

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No it's not possible

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No it's not possible

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No it's not possible

When I first registered and applied. Liberation unleashed helper me percieve that only "seeing" was taking place. That the "I" was seeing was not true. Then a day later it became clearer that also there is no "doer" controlling my body. I still felt responsible for thinking, it wasn't quite clear to me because there was an urge to control the thought process and I think this urge gave a stronger sense of self to the thoughts.

Some point later, I felt that the urge to control was also related to the urge to collect experience and understanding which would act as an armour to protect "myself" from some scary challenge in the future. Then it became clearer that there were some false assumptions there.

1. That knoweldge and experience will prevent me from getting hurt in the future.
2. That I know what the future will be like - this is unknowable.
3. That I know what my current state is - this is a faulty assumption that I'm currently not good enough which is projected backwards to "now" in relation to this "future challenge"

When these things became clear then the urge to immediately control the thought process and accumulation of knowledge as a form of protection lessened and this feeling of controlling (or wanting to) control my thoughts lessened and it is clear now that it is just the "I" associating itself with thoughts.

I still feel there is a lot of cleanup and work todo internally. I'm not in some kind of magical "flow state" where thoughts just come and as well as emotions and sensations and "I" don't care what comes and goes. There is still very much an interest in the thoughts and emotions because of the desire to clean things up. I know intellectually that I am not driving this process and that the "I" part of the whole thing just gums up the works a bit.

I have been crying a lot (and vomiting at times) and I think it is because now that there there is not always a "controller" trying to control everything, that things have opened up and a natural and healing process of observing what is going on internally is taking place and some things which were long buried seem to be coming out.

Thank and best wishes
Scott

[Elad]

Hi Scott, powerful stuff here, great. Yes, certainly sounds like a lot of old stuff is coming up as effect of less defense mechanisms (the illusory separate self can be viewed as one big defense mechanism). So be kind and patient with that. If you have questions relating to it, feel free to ask.

As for the rest of what you shared, let's focus here:

it is clear now that it is just the "I" associating itself with thoughts.

What is this "I" that associates itself?
Is it more than a label, a thought?
Can a label, a thought "associate itself"
Can a thought "do" things?


Important: Don't analyze it! Don''t think through how it works. There was some of that in last post, and it is not direct experience.

ONLY LOOK and see how it is in real time experience.

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Thank you so much for these great questions.

What is this "I" that associates itself?

It is nothing, it is just a label

Is it more than a label, a thought?

It is just a label, a feeling of association

Can a label, a thought "associate itself

No it cannot.

Can a thought do things?

No it cannot.

The ground feels a bit shakey beneath my feet just now, this feeling that I was in control of the labeling process has taken a shock. I'm curious how this will play out during the course of the day.

Thank you very much and best wishes

Scott

[Elad]

Beautiful Scott. You are in a good place. Just feel the reverberations of this seeing, allow it to feel as it does, be open to it to move and flow as it wants. Write me soon again how things are moving, and what is clear and what is not clear.

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

I had a really nice day, I was working in the morning and afternoon from home and then went out for a walk in the late afternoon. I am feeling very relaxed and good.

It feels quite natural to say that I'm still interested in my thoughts. The feeling is still there, that they are "my thoughts" and I am somehow responsible for them, even though I know it's not really true. It seems I am lying to myself somewhere along the line.

I know that I cannot control a specific thought.

I know this means that I cannot control any specific thought in my head ever and that I never have my whole life.

I still have a belief that the "I" is generally steering the ship. I'm sure there is a simple emotional reason behind this, relating to fear of losing control. Thoughts are a safer place to live, perhaps I am hiding in them.

But there is no "I" hiding in thoughts.... - saying this to myself feels like a small but important revelation.

Fully believing that I have absolutely no control over the direction of thinking in my head is scary. It means losing control of my life. "my life" being another nebulous concept. I think I need to sit with this fear for a bit. I'll spend some quite time just now doing this.

love
Scott

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Reflecting on this further, some things came up which I want to mention.

When I was 11 I got into a fight and seriously hurt someone. I remember promising to my parents that I would always think before I would act in the future, and I really stuck to that promise. It was the start of a new calmer phase of my life really. A lot of things changed for me and a lot of kids took advantage of the fact that I would not fight back when verbally abused, leading to a lot of suffering in my teenage years.

The idea that I would act without thinking or not think before I act brings me right back to this point in my life when I had to make this change. I know that after a certain age everyone thinks before they act but reflecting on not having any control over thought at all and "abandoning thought", brought this stuff up. I know I can say well, "who is thinking" and "who is acting" and I know that these are just taking place, and that there is no "I" behind either, but these are my feelings and that this "time lag" between thinking and acting and the subsequent feeling of control it brings is important.

love
Scott

[Elad]

Hi Scott, this great! This process naturally brings up stuff like this, that needs to be processed.

If you YouTube "the marshmallow test" (or know it) it shows childrens capacity to delay gratification in order to achieve a higher future reward. This turns out to be a predictor of future success. Children who demonstrated self-control by waiting for the larger reward tended to achieve higher academic performance, possess better social skills, and exhibit lower levels of behavioral problems compared to their peers who opted for immediate gratification.

This process will not reduce the capacity for self control or delayed gratification in this sense. It might highten it... As viewed from outside, from conventional perspective. It might change what is considered worthwhile and "higher gratification". thus change what is controlled and how. This however, is generally in direction of less image based ("narcissitic" or "pleasing") direction, to more genuine clarity and heart based direction.

In short, this process does not make you lose control, you cannot lose control that was never there. For many of us nothing much changes on the outside. What does change tends to be from less neurotic or narcissistic confusion, to a more natural, easeful, appreciate functioning.

It boils down to: is it the clarity and care that unfolds/emerges by itself that makes things function, or is it the creation of a separate ego?

Try this: Sitting, laying or standing, for several minutes just notice what happens in real time, and word it adding to each noticing "without choice". Here is an example of me doing it:

Hearing the music without choice
Looking at my dog without choice
Noticing man without choice
Noticing these thought processes without choice
Thinking if to give more examples without choice
Noticing that much more is experienced then what is described without choice
Noticing this is a thought without choice

Etc.

While you do it have an open-ended curiosity: Does the noticing, the inner voice, ever create what is seen, thought, felt - or is it just another aspect of what happens by itself, and always *after the fact, in delay to* what actually happens?

Are the choices chosen by a self, or they are spontaneous phenomena like everything else?

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Thanks very much for this. I have had a busy family day and have been processing a bit in the background this desire for control and observing the reality of there not being any control.

I will try these exercises tomorrow. Focusing on this aspect of no choice seems very approriate

WIth thanks

Love
Scott

[Elad]

Cool!

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

I was performing the exercises and reflecting on no choice, throughout the day.

I had a headache also most of the day. I had a feeling it was related... I was also concerned with self-supression, that I have suppressed myself a lot over the years, at times not speaking, not sharing my feelings etc. Focusing on no choice made me feel sorry for the my past self who was self suppressing so much when infact he had no choice but to experience what he experienced and feel what he felt.

I feel I supressed myself a lot at home and from an early age (maybe 3 or 4), my younger inner voice felt quite insecure and not very calm at all growing up. I also stuttered a lot as a kid which I think also shows a lot of suppression taking place.

What you mention here

is it the clarity and care that unfolds/emerges by itself that makes things function, or is it the creation of a separate ego?

I feel this fundamentally to be true and I have done for many years and this feeling is a strong driver for me for self discovery because it feels the right way to operate in the world.

I don't want to change this into a therapy session, talking about my past, I know that this is not what it is about. In any case, I find staying with this feeling of no choice, very valuable, I'll continue to do so today.

With love

Scott