Direct experiencing

[Marly6]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The feeling or belief in an autonomous self who is orchestrating everything is simply an illusion. When trying to find this self, I can not find it, although there is still a feeling of a self, but this is also recognized as a feeling and thoughts about the feeling, so ultimately not real.

What are you looking for at LU?
I have never really talked about this with anyone and I would like to see if I am on the right track. I have experienced a seeing through thoughts and doubts which has been such a huge shift in my life, but still some habits and attachments are there which I'm not sure how to proceed with and some help would be nice.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A perspective from someone who has been through similar phases of realization that can point out things I might not be able to see clearly.
Also just someone to talk to about this as I have never talked to anyone about this.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been "seeking" for 20 years or more. I have attended some (silent) retreats, read many books and watched countless videos about the subject of awakening, nondual understanding etc. I do meditation on a daily basis. I've had some shifts happen at different points of my life, but overall it's been a gradual process. This year I had a slightly more sudden experience of seeing thoughts for what they are. Also the seeking has pretty much disappeared, although there is still a habit of watching videos etc. But the feeling of there being an active seeker is gone and there is just a direct experiencing happening most of the time.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[poppyseed]

Hi Marly6
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Marly6]

Hello Rali,
My name is Marina, although I've always felt like that name doesn't really refer to me, but that's the name you can use.
Very nice to meet you and thank you for taking the time to guide me, it is very much appreciated.
I have read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” and that is clear.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

Yes agreed. This is prio 1 for me but indeed life is still going on so if something comes up I'll let you know and you can let me know if you are tied up on your side.

What time zone are in?

I am located in the Netherlands, so that's CET or GMT+1.

Where are you located?

I am all good to start.
Thanks again!
Marina

[poppyseed]

Hi Marina

Very nice to meet you and thank you for taking the time to guide me, it is very much appreciated.

Likewise :). And it’s my pleasure!

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I am located in the Netherlands, so that's CET or GMT+1.

I'm GMT+2. Perfect :)

I am all good to start.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Marly6]

Hello Rali,

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic

Done!

I'm GMT+2

.
Great!

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I will not experience little "me" going through the world and taking on everything by myself. There will be a unified experience of everything and a knowing that I am that. There will be peace.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

The result will be that there will be no attachment to objects, thoughts, people etc. and there will be no suffering, no unnecessary energy spent following thoughts and daydreaming scenario's of fictional futures or past. There will be true freedom.

3. What do you want not to happen?

Remaining stuck in certain beliefs and in doubt about being free. Searching for something forever, chasing my own tail.

4. What are you hoping for?

I don't hope for anything, because hope just leads you into the world of concepts and hypothetical scenario's. I want to see clearly, right now. And I want to be free for good. I want to be free from the belief that my circumstances are keeping me from being free.

5. What is missing?

Some guidance and reflection.

Thanks 🙏🏼
Marina

[poppyseed]

Hi Marina

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?


Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[Marly6]

Hello Rali,

It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Yes this is ok, and I am ok to let go of any concepts and ideas.

If you look for the I, what is there?

I've spent a lot of time today feeling into the I feeling and it's kind of strange as I can't really find anything there..
When looking for the I, nothing objective is found, but there is a subjective watching or knowing of everything which is what I would refer to as I. Something that can see but can't be seen. It sees or knows all sights, sounds, sensations and thoughts and it is unchanging and always present.
Also the body is seen as a collection of sensations, sights, sounds etc.
However there is also a habit of experiencing the I as a feeling located somewhere where the body is experienced (which is an objective projection), and I seem to be going back and forth between identifying with the body (especially when the body is limited due to certain circumstances) and the subjective watching without an objective self.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

What comes up is that I can confirm that there are no objective entities who are doing, thinking, experiencing etc, as I am not able to find any. There is a subjective awareness that sees all the objects (sights, sounds, tastes, sensations etc). I looked directly in my current experience (sights, sounds, sensations etc) and the only thing I can experience directly is the knowing of all these things, not the things themselves.
When I do fall back into the habit of identifying with the body and the independent doer, I do feel that I have to do things or they will not happen. My life feels like it's stuck and there is a feeling like I have to make a decision where to take it and then it feels like there is a decision maker who needs to take action.
I can see that these are also just thoughts in awareness and there is not really a doer there, but it does feel that way. (And I also know that this feeling is also just a thought or collection of thoughts) I'm not sure what to do with this feeling/habit as it seems to be very strong still and persistent. I still seem to have some kind of attachment there.. Do I just keep looking at it?

Thanks so much for your guidance!
Love,
Marina

[poppyseed]

Hi Marina

Thank you for the detailed and honest answer. It gives me an idea where to begin.
Before we start let’s just double check that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's another exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

[Marly6]

Hello Rali,

Thanks for the detailed guidance into how to LOOK. I am able to look and see what is there without a doubt.

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Yes there is no way to know for sure unless you actually look.

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

This is clear, yes.

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.
....
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

The "apple" is not known. Only the sensation in your hand or mouth, the taste, smell and sight (color) are known and you can be absolutely certain about. The label apple is a concept(thought) given to a set of sensations, tastes, smells and sights based on past experiences. There's not an actual thing there that is a direct experience called an apple.

I often use the sensation of my hands when they touch each other as an exercise for this. I feel the palm of my hand with my fingertips which is a soft feeling, and I know this is my palm and my fingertips touching. But the actual direct experience of this is the sensation, not the hands.
And when I run the tips of my nails along my fingertips I feel a sharpness, which is the direct experience labelled nails and fingertips. But the only thing that can directly be perceived is the sharp sensation, and not the nails/fingers.. they are derivatives of the direct sensation. - this is clear.

Some examples from todays experiences broken down into DE:

Having a cup of coffee after waking up:
Smelling the coffee while its brewing = smell (smelling)
Seeing the coffee in the cup = light and colour (seeing)
Feeling the warm cup in my hand = sensation (feeling)
Taking a sip of the coffee = taste (tasting)
Hearing my dog playing while I drink my coffee = sound (hearing)
Thought about everything I have to do today = thought (thinking)

Taking my dog out for a walk:
Seeing the path and the autumn colors of all the trees = light and colour (seeing)
Smelling the fresh forest air = smell (smelling)
Feeling the leash in my hand = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the birds singing/chirping = sound (hearing)
Thought about not forgetting to pack everything = thought (thinking)

Driving back from Belgium:
Seeing the road = light and colour (seeing)
Smelling the car air freshener and hot coffee I brought = smell (smelling)
Feeling the steering wheel and my butt in the seat = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee I brought with me = taste (tasting)
Hearing the air whizzing along the car and other cars roaring = sound (hearing)
Thought about people driving like they don't have a license = thought (thinking)

I will try to remind myself to repeat this exercise when ever possible as it is a nice way to look at what is actually there versus what is made up/fabricated by the mind.
Thanks again for your time, much appreciated.

Love,
Marina

[poppyseed]

Hey

The "apple" is not known. Only the sensation in your hand or mouth, the taste, smell and sight (color) are known and you can be absolutely certain about. The label apple is a concept(thought) given to a set of sensations, tastes, smells and sights based on past experiences. There's not an actual thing there that is a direct experience called an apple.

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste).

Some examples from todays experiences broken down into DE:

Having a cup of coffee after waking up:
Smelling the coffee while its brewing = smell (smelling)
Seeing the coffee in the cup = light and colour (seeing)
Feeling the warm cup in my hand = sensation (feeling)
Taking a sip of the coffee = taste (tasting)
Hearing my dog playing while I drink my coffee = sound (hearing)
Thought about everything I have to do today = thought (thinking)

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.
How does it feel to see what actually is?
Please give me an example with each of your replies to build up a proper habit of looking :)

When I do fall back into the habit of identifying with the body and the independent doer, I do feel that I have to do things or they will not happen.

But the only thing that can directly be perceived is the sharp sensation, and not the nails/fingers.. they are derivatives of the direct sensation. - this is clear.

Ok, so there is an insight about the body being a label for sensations, some colours, and maybe some smells :). But can a body be found as actual experience or only thoughts about a body?
In DE does the body have a shape or a form?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
Can the 'body' do things?
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
1. First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

2. Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

3. While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

4. Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

5. Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

6. Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

7. Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

8. Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

9. Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Love
Rali

[Marly6]

Good evening Rali,

Thanks for the exercises. Im eager to do some more looking :)

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.

Noted, will do it during every morning coffee, every time I go for a walk with my dog, during dinner etc.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

It feels very ordinary and natural.
A lot of thoughts and judgements arise but these are also now directly seen as though - thinking.

Please give me an example with each of your replies to build up a proper habit of looking :)

Ok noted. Will do it at the end of every reply if that’s ok with you.

When I do fall back into the habit of identifying with the body and the independent doer, I do feel that I have to do things or they will not happen.
But the only thing that can directly be perceived is the sharp sensation, and not the nails/fingers.. they are derivatives of the direct sensation. - this is clear.

Ok, so there is an insight about the body being a label for sensations, some colours, and maybe some smells :). But can a body be found as actual experience or only thoughts about a body?

No it can’t be found directly: it is a derivative or label of sights, sensations, sounds, smells etc.

In DE does the body have a shape or a form?

No shape that I can pinpoint in my direct experience. Just sensations, smells, sights, sounds etc.

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

It is just body, a label or concept pointing to a collection of direct experiences.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

Do you mean is there an inside or outside of the body? When looking directly the body can not be found, only sensations, sights etc, so inside or outside doesn’t mean anything.
As for whether there is an inside or outside in relation to the direct experiencing, there is no outside that I am sure of. But I do experience that the sensations and sights and other direct experiences (including the ones labelled “Body”) are inside of awareness/knowing. There cannot be outside of awareness/knowing as direct experiences can only be known with this awareness/knowing.
And awareness/knowing is present even in a total absence of any of these experiences (sights, sounds, sensations, thoughts). These arise within awareness/knowing (I can see them come and go) but the awareness/knowing is always present.

Can the 'body' do things?

The label or concept “Body” can certainly “do things” (this is also a label). But the direct experience of sensations, sights, smells, sounds, etc. that we have labelled “Body” cannot do anything, as doing is also just a collection of DE’s. They just are. When the concept Body is busy doing stuff, this just means there are more and different sensations, sights, sounds, etc. experienced. They are just happening.


Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
1. First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

Ok

2. Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

No there is no actual direct connection between the sensation and the sights seen. This connection is only established when thought comes into play.

3. While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

The sensations are still felt like before, but now there is also indeed a thought that suggest that there is a connection between the feeling of my hand moving, and seeing my hand move there as a “thing moving” in the mirror. So the sight is what fuels the thought that says it seem like there is a thing there. When there is only sensation this thought is not there, so it comes up when sight is added.

4. Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Ok I took my time with this one, and I have found that only when thought jumps in, a connection between (sensation hand moving) and (seeing hand moving) is made. When there is no thought, there is just sensation and sight both there, just being what they are, no label.

5. Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

The image (seeing - colors/shapes) is all there is.

6. Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

No there is no knowledge of anything but the shapes/colors (and the labels belonging to them) that are directly seen/experienced. Only thought brings in the things that are not seen in the mirror but are assumed to be there, like label "legs".

7. Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

There are only sensations, like I can feel sensations (labelled “my belly”) now after I had my dinner.

8. Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

There are only sensations, but there are also always labels of those sensations arising that label the experience. These are thoughts (thinking).

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

No, there is no actual experience "walking". There are sensations labelled “walking” by thought.

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Yes exactly, thoughts commenting on the sensations, naming/labeling them walking.

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Yes thoughts give the sensations that have been labelled Body the name “Body”

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

No, not an actual thing, since the actual things that can be found are sensations.

9. Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

The sensations are not localized anywhere, they are felt in awareness, which has no spatial location.

I will repeat this exercise a couple more times tonight, and going forward when ever I am in front of a mirror, or walking. Thanks a lot for this one, I liked it a lot :)

*Example of experience broken down into DE
Preparing/eating dinner:
Smelling the food while its cooking = smell (smelling)
Hearing the sizzling in the pan = sound (hearing)
Seeing the food on my plate = shapes and colour (seeing)
Feeling the cutlery in my hand = sensation (feeling)
Chewing and tasting the food = taste (tasting)
Thought about how yummy it is = thought (thinking)

Love,
Marina

[poppyseed]

Hi Marina

Seeing the food on my plate = shapes and colour (seeing)
Feeling the cutlery in my hand = sensation (feeling)

Great! Keep them coming!

As for whether there is an inside or outside in relation to the direct experiencing, there is no outside that I am sure of. But I do experience that the sensations and sights and other direct experiences (including the ones labelled “Body”) are inside of awareness/knowing. There cannot be outside of awareness/knowing as direct experiences can only be known with this awareness/knowing.
And awareness/knowing is present even in a total absence of any of these experiences (sights, sounds, sensations, thoughts). These arise within awareness/knowing (I can see them come and go) but the awareness/knowing is always present.

That sounds a bit theoretical, like a quote from a teaching (Advaita Vedanta or non duality) and we agreed to leave these behind. So let’s actually LOOK!

Is awareness separate from the experience (e.g. feeling, seeing)? Are there two - on one side awareness and on the other experience? For example, focus on a sensation. Where is the border that shows where one (awareness) ends and the other (sensation) starts? How exactly is the experience known by awareness - before, during, after? Is awareness a container of some kind with limits and physical properties? Or a lone witness? You should be able to observe that if there are two "things". Is there really a time when there is no experience at all (no matter how subtle), where you can observe only awareness? No breathing, no heartbeat, no aliveness, absolute nothing no matter how subtle? If you focus just on awareness - what is there? Can you describe it with the senses? Remember, anything that cannot be directly experienced through the senses is considered merely a thought, a mental construct, an assumption, an abstraction. What is doing the observing of awareness? Can awareness split itself into awareness and not awareness to observe itself?
If you found a sensory experience that is called ‘awareness’, what makes that "you" or “awareness” for that matter? Is there anything in DE but the experience/ what is? Are there knower and known or just knowingknown? Go to the experience of thinking and go to the experience of being aware of thinking. Are they two different experiences or is it the same experience? Or seeing and being aware of seeing. Are seeing and knowing (of it) separate or are they one and the same? LOOK don't remember teachings or others' experiences (don't think)!
To know “something” is to isolate it from the whole which is basically labelling, right? So what is the difference between knowing and thinking about?

Love
Rali

[Marly6]

Hello Rali,

Thanks for your feedback.

That sounds a bit theoretical, like a quote from a teaching (Advaita Vedanta or non duality) and we agreed to leave these behind. So let’s actually LOOK!

You are right, I am probably referring to memory to explain this, but I am pointing to something that is my direct experience also. Maybe I am just mis interpreting this when trying to explain.
I will try to elaborate more based on your other questions.

Is awareness separate from the experience (e.g. feeling, seeing)? Are there two - on one side awareness and on the other experience? 

No I do not experience this as 2 separate things… it’s more like the seeing or the sensing is made out of awareness, or awareness is the fabric of all of them. In all the DE’s there is one common factor which is that they are registered or known by something. This is what I mean by awareness/knowing. This is my direct experience at any moment.
I have experienced a sensory deprivation chamber a few times and then you are kind of floating in a liquid that is your body temperature, so you don’t feel any sensations, there is no sound, and there is no sight (dark). So then you are deprived of any senses, of course thinking still happens, but there are also moments where there are no thoughts and there is still a presence there, this is what I have experienced directly. Possibly there were still some subtle senses going on and the thing I refer to as awareness are actually still the subtle DE’s. But like I mentioned before, what I do really experience without a doubt, is that in any DE there is a common factor of awareness.

For example, focus on a sensation. Where is the border that shows where one (awareness) ends and the other (sensation) starts?

Ok I am focussing on the sensation that thought has labelled “Scratching my nose”. There is no border indeed, it is all one experience - sensing and knowing the sensing.

How exactly is the experience known by awareness - before, during, after? Is awareness a container of some kind with limits and physical properties? Or a lone witness? You should be able to observe that if there are two "things".

No the awareness has no limits as it is a common factor of all DE’s. I cannot find any Direct experience where I can say that this wasn’t registered or known/seen (aware). I cannot find any limits or physical properties.

Is there really a time when there is no experience at all (no matter how subtle), where you can observe only awareness? No breathing, no heartbeat, no aliveness, absolute nothing no matter how subtle?

I can’t say for sure as I would need to be fully stripped away of my senses, and this is of course impossible, even in a sensory deprivation chamber you always still have some subtle senses, breathing etc. So based on direct experience I have to say no.

If you focus just on awareness - what is there? Can you describe it with the senses? Remember, anything that cannot be directly experienced through the senses is considered merely a thought, a mental construct, an assumption, an abstraction.


I am really looking from my own experience and what I can see is that it cannot be described with the senses because the senses can only describe/see objects. The awareness I refer to I am experiencing like the ultimate subject that is present in all Direct experiences and is not separate from them. It is the thing that I am sure of the most, that there is awareness of everything that is directly experienced in all the different forms of DE. I don’t see how this can be an assumption or thought?

What is doing the observing of awareness? Can awareness split itself into awareness and not awareness to observe itself?

I am not sure about this one. Awareness is that which observes/knows. It is one thing, it cannot be split up. Or at least, I havent experienced this.

If you found a sensory experience that is called ‘awareness’, what makes that "you" or “awareness” for that matter?

I cannot find a sensory experience called awareness. Awareness is present in all direct sensory experiences, but it is not a sensory experience itself.

Is there anything in DE but the experience/ what is? Are there knower and known or just knowingknown? 

There is no knower and known, there is only one direct known experience.

Go to the experience of thinking and go to the experience of being aware of thinking. Are they two different experiences or is it the same experience? Or seeing and being aware of seeing. Are seeing and knowing (of it) separate or are they one and the same? LOOK don't remember teachings or others' experiences (don't think)!

Yes I can see that these are all one experience. Although what I do experience is that all the DE’s can be distinguished from each other (by thought yes but still they directly are also experienced as different from each other), as sensing is a different experience than seeing or hearing, but what is the same in all of those experiences is the awareness part, which is not separate from them, it is interwoven with them, but it is always the same. And this is something I do directly experience.[/quote]

To know “something” is to isolate it from the whole which is basically labelling, right? So what is the difference between knowing and thinking about?

Yes to know “something” means you are conceptualising it since you have made it into something.
The problem is also that I am trying to use words (which are basically concepts) to describe something that is not a concept. Maybe awareness or knowing is not the correct word cause its isolating it indeed, and its not an isolated thing, it is the entirety itself…
and maybe I am totally off track..
I am aware that I do have some old ideas that I need to let go of, and I am really trying to actually LOOK in the moment here. I’d love to see your feedback on this.
Much appreciated!

*Example of experience broken down into DE
Working on my computer:

Seeing the screen = light/shape and colour (seeing)
Hearing the ticking of the keyboard = sound (hearing)
Feeling the keys with my fingertips = sensation (feeling)
Chewing minty fresh gum = taste (tasting) and sensation (sensing)

Smelling the minty smell = smell (smelling)
Thought about what I need to do today = thought (thinking)

Love,
Marina

[poppyseed]

Hey

I really appreciate your openness and willingness to look. I know it could be difficult to challenge strongly held believes. You are doing great!

I am really looking from my own experience and what I can see is that it cannot be described with the senses because the senses can only describe/see objects. The awareness I refer to I am experiencing like the ultimate subject that is present in all Direct experiences and is not separate from them. It is the thing that I am sure of the most, that there is awareness of everything that is directly experienced in all the different forms of DE. I don’t see how this can be an assumption or thought?

So if awareness cannot be experienced (seen, smelled, etc - DE) how is it known then that it is there (or is it assumed)? All you have is see, smell, taste, hear, and feel (experiencing). Thinking provides the explanations/descriptions/meaning

Do the senses describe objects? Like apples? Are they tools? Or the senses are what is happening?
Let’s explore seeing in a bit more detail…
Gaze at an object. What is happening when "seeing" is happening? If it is a tool then what is doing the seeing and how? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there a describable entity experiencing the seeing (like awareness)?
Close your eyes.
With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics.
Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.
1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is seeing/witnessing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Marina, an entity be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find? What is there?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er (awareness, observer, experiencer, witness, ghost in the machine, knower, etc), be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Look at whatever is in front of you like your screen. Is seeing separate from what’s seen (the screen)? Is there any awareness (or anything else) separate from experience or is there just experience (e.g. seeing)?
Are seeing and knowing (of it) separate or are they one and the same. Is there seeing AND colour or are they one and the same seeingcolour?
Are there two things present - colour AND experience (knowing)? Or are colour and experience one and the same? Is there colour that is not experienced sitting as a potential? Is there experience that is not experienced or that is an oxymoron? Labels give solidity and inherency/existence to experience – colour is assumed to exist inherently and have the property of being experienced/seen.
Regardless of whether thought calls experience "multiple things", or "awareness", or "experience", or just THIS the most important thing to check is whether there is any border between "knowing" and "known" (seeing, feeling,...). If they are one and the same then where is the Awareness that is seeing them? Is the seeingseen not just happening without a someone/something that is doing/knowing of the seeingseen?

I cannot find a sensory experience called awareness. Awareness is present in all direct sensory experiences, but it is not a sensory experience itself.

That sounds like a riddle. What is it that's noticing "awareness" that is present?
Can there be noticing something without there being separation whatsoever?
What is the DE of “sensory experiences being inseparable from awareness”? If they are inseparable how is it known what the separate ingredients are (or is it deducted/labelled into existence)?

Yes I can see that these are all one experience. Although what I do experience is that all the DE’s can be distinguished from each other (by thought yes but still they directly are also experienced as different from each other), as sensing is a different experience than seeing or hearing, but what is the same in all of those experiences is the awareness part, which is not separate from them, it is interwoven with them, but it is always the same. And this is something I do directly experience.

What makes seeing a different experience from feeling or hearing without the labels? Can they even be isolated?
With your eyes still closed, listen to whatever sound is present for several moments. Now open your eyes and notice colours.
Do the colours appear in a different “place” to thoughts and sounds? Can you find an actual line/wall/boundary that divides sounds and colours, or is that division a mental construct?
We don’t experience our senses individually. Rather, these are different aspects of experience. Mind tells us that our senses are separate streams of information. We see with our eyes, hear with our ears, feel with our skin, smell with our nose, taste with our tongue. In DE, though, it is seen as a one experience. Senses affect each other. Although speech is perceived through the ears, what we see can change what we hear. In this video, a man produces the same syllable over and over again. If you watch his mouth, you’ll hear the syllable “fah,” but if you look away, you’ll hear “bah.” Although your ears hear “bah,” your eyes see “fah”. This phenomenon is known as the McGurk effect. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k8fHR9jKVM )
Another example of sensory interaction is how both taste and smell are vital for savouring food (flavour). If smell is lost or impaired, for instance, the taste of food will also be impaired, even if taste receptors on the tongue are working fine.
Here is a fun video that demonstrates how a relationship between sight and touch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DphlhmtGRqI
Even though it might look as there are clearly defined senses, DE shows a different story. So even the senses are not inherently existing

I can’t say for sure as I would need to be fully stripped away of my senses, and this is of course impossible, even in a sensory deprivation chamber you always still have some subtle senses, breathing etc. So based on direct experience I have to say no.

If there is 'awareness' of nothingness, that is often a subtle image of nothing with very subtle sensations. True nothingness means absolutely nothing. So if there are no sensations and there is nothingness, that's often a subtle thought that is trying to create something. This could also be called aliveness, presence or I AM, but even that is a label, is it not? Is there anything here that is not the senses? The way I look at sensations is that they include anything that is sensed, such as touching a cup or a feeling of expansiveness/nothingness. The feeling of expansiveness is a plethora of sensations happening in quick succession, making it seem and feel expansive. But it's good to remember that we can only experience see, hear, feel, taste, smell and thought. Anything not in the first five is thought. So when you say that senses aren't present, I want to question it, because you may be reifying something that isn't there.
Many have a feeling of I AM, presence, awareness, but even that has to be let go of at some point.
Without the label “nothing”, do you notice that these are also sensations?
Love
Rali

[Marly6]

Hi Rali,

Please give me some time to sit with this as I feel like I need to spend a bit more time just focusing on the DE's and I'll answer you tomorrow if that's ok?

Thanks so much for the guidance, looks like I really need it.

Love
M.