A hard case?

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Sunyata1
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Re: A hard case?

Postby Sunyata1 » Mon Nov 11, 2024 5:43 am

Hi Rali,
If I say something in Zulu, would you understand it ( remember the ears are on you)?
There will only be sounds and a story about an "I" who doesn't understand.
So does this something understand mostly English?
I can’t find a “something understanding English” in DE. The experience of understanding is translated by thoughts in a story about an “I” that “understands English”.
Are there thoughts and a listener or this is how thoughts appear?
I can’t find a listener. ”Listening” is also something that can only occur in a story about an “I”. Thoughts can just be.
Is the thinker necessary for thoughts to appear?
I don’t know what is necessary for a thought to appear, but, in any case, it’s not possible to find a thinker.
Here is a fun exercise for you to explore
Please note that you will have to check the link when using this exercise, to make sure it is still viable, as sometimes they are removed from Youtube.

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences.
Notice how the commentator (thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.
Interesting exercise.
What did you find when doing this exercise?
It is funny how the narrative layer really creates a story over what is happening, including a lot of things that is not present on the screen, like players intention.
Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?
No.
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
No. But I’m trying to identify why some thoughts feel like an automatic narration of what is happening, while others feel like 'I am thinking.' It seems that subvocalization is what happens in the second case.

Best,
Nelson

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poppyseed
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Re: A hard case?

Postby poppyseed » Mon Nov 11, 2024 3:12 pm

Hi Nelson
I guess this happens because of the “I/me” belief, right? As long as this belief in “I” exists, it will make sense to pay attention to anything that threatens “my” survival.
Can a thought think/believe? Notice the thoughts that are arising. Some of them will contain the word ‘I’.
Are these thoughts different from other thoughts?
Do they have any special faculties, i.e., can the I-thoughts see or hear? Can they do anything else?

I don’t know what is necessary for a thought to appear, but, in any case, it’s not possible to find a thinker.
Great! Keep on looking for one!
The mind plays a trick here, suggesting that I also don’t have a proof that an 'I' doesn't exist. Do you have any advice on this?
It seems like you’re expecting that there will be some kind of confirmation of no self, coming from the mind. Let’s not forget that this where the self lives, right? So in a way you are expecting the self to confirm that it doesn’t exist???
No solutions can be found in the mind, only problems. You can’t solve feelings and emotions, they can only be dissolved. The only solution is looking and looking at DE and “paying attention” to sensations. When doubt arises it’s because of the contradiction – yes there is no one to experience the fear, but fear is here, so mind continues to say “I feel fear” (which is language). Then there are thoughts that say – "yes but there is no one here to experience fear why is fear here then?", and it goes in an endless loop. The only way to “deal” with “fear” is to actually see what “fear” is and why it “exists” in a first place. Then the “hook” is removed. Not fear in general but this particular fear, and that one, and that one. Otherwise it is bypassing, intellectual understanding. We have one look and we say there is no one here to be protected, but that in a way is bypassing, because there never was, and “fear” was there.

Expectations of a “happily ever after” after seeing no self may be in the way as well. We listen to other people’s stories and we build this idea that it all drops away on the spot, once it is seen. It doesn’t work this way – all needs to be seen (as a description) in a new way, one by one, as it appears.
Here is a good video to consider
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

You saw already that emotions are a sensation which is covered with inaccurate sticky notes. So the problem is in fearful thoughts and worries about how you are too much of this and too little of that; it makes you think life is unfair and that all should be different, and if only you can change it, make it perfect. But can THIS be any different to how it appears right now?
There is a constant frustration, fighting unwanted intense emotions and having strategies developed how to avoid them. There are always thoughts that something is wrong with the assumed self, which is being compared to other assumed selves, so strategies for self-improvement are being developed all the time. But you see when the truth of no self is seen it does not make all of these thought patterns disappear immediately. It’s not that the self was their thinker and now it is not. “I” is just a pronoun in language and it has always been. Thoughts are very much self-organised. You have not just one thought/belief (i.e. the I-thought) but many where the “I” is the subject. So, in order to have all of these patterns changed, they have to be compared vs DE, only then they can be dropped – one by one as they appear. Some of these I-thoughts are associated (have "hooks") with ickier sensations then others, thus "allowing" all sensations to just be is essential. "Fear", "shame", "guilt", "anger", have a different "feel" when they are in combination with other concepts - e.g. "fear of uncertainty" vs "fear of a moving car approaching". Notice that! At the same time, notice how nuances of "anger" like "confusion", "frustration", "irritation", "rage", "fury", "ire", "wrath", "resentment" are experienced. Are they that much different or the story is different?
Some movement sensations are labeled as done by ‘me’, but these sensations are no different from the others.
Find out where in you the ‘control room’ is.
Where is the place where everything is monitored? Which entity monitors what is going on?
What is it that adjusts decisions and actions when something is not going well?
Can responsibility and free will be found in actual sensory experience?
Which entity has responsibility and executes free will?


How do you know that you know what needs to be done? Are you in charge of thoughts that appear with regards to planning?

Sensation arising labelled painful, stomach, hunger:
Thought 1: I’m hungry
Thought 2: I think there’s some bread in the fridge (possible mental image of bread in fridge)
Thought 3: No there isn’t, I ate it last night
Thought 4: I could go to the shops (possible mental image of shops)
...
Thought 27: I have been thinking about food.

Now when we look at this, do we find thought 27 has any knowledge of any of the other thoughts, let alone them all? It seems that way, but when we look closely, what is found?
Write down your own sequence of planning...Did you know in advance the order of how the thoughts will appear - 1,2, ..27?

Let’s address expectations once again:
What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?
What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
What do you want not to happen?
What are you hoping for?
What is missing?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address specifically?
Hearing the car passing by, simply = sounds (hearing)
I noticed that you stopped giving me examples. Please continue to give me one or two so you have the habit of looking going.

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Sunyata1
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Re: A hard case?

Postby Sunyata1 » Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:56 am

Hi Rali,

Feeling cool air on the body, simply = sensations (feeling)
Feeling pain on the legs, simply = sensations (feeling)
Hearing the rain = sounds (hearing)
Can a thought think/believe?
No.
Are these thoughts different from other thoughts?
No.
Do they have any special faculties, i.e., can the I-thoughts see or hear?
No.
Can they do anything else?
No, they just arise as other thoughts.
It seems like you’re expecting that there will be some kind of confirmation of no self, coming from the mind. Let’s not forget that this where the self lives, right?
Yes.
So in a way you are expecting the self to confirm that it doesn’t exist???
Maybe I’m doing this wrong, but, in a way, I’m still using thoughts to constantly verify that there is no self. For example, I keep comparing descriptions like 'I am hearing this sound' with the experience itself, where there is just the sound.

More than a decade ago, I had an experience of no-self, when, for a moment, it was completely self-evident that there is no self, just an eternal now, and suddenly I understood what all the pointers meant.

I’m kind of waiting for this level of clarity, where the fact that there is no self is completely self-evident.

Am I doing this wrong?

I will continue answering tomorrow, ok? I’ve been noticing that sometimes I rush to answer your questions, but I would like to spend more time on them, if it is not a problem. Is it preferable to try to answer them all in a day or two, or is it ok to take a little more time?

Best,
Nelson

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poppyseed
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Re: A hard case?

Postby poppyseed » Tue Nov 12, 2024 8:52 am

Hi Nelson
Maybe I’m doing this wrong, but, in a way, I’m still using thoughts to constantly verify that there is no self. For example, I keep comparing descriptions like 'I am hearing this sound' with the experience itself, where there is just the sound.
Do thoughts verify or just describe what is happening? To verify means to make sure or demonstrate that (something) is true, accurate, or justified. So do thoughts have a certain enlightened knowledge that they check against (aka expectations)?
Concluding that there is no self because it can’t be found is an intellectual conclusion, not an experiential insight. An experiential insight in the nature of self is reached by exploring the nature of the imaginary self itself (not its absence). The shift is a visceral experience that cannot be overlooked or forgotten (like your old experience). After this experience, it is known that the self-illusion is gone, it is obvious. However, this is not about states and their maintenance. Present moment is just one present moment, and has anything to do with a duration of a certain state – for example the elation, the aha moment, the thrill, what we call the "honeymoon". Fundamentally, a shift involves directly experiencing the absence of a "self" that undergoes it, along with the absence of the "world" in relation to oneself. It's an experience where subjectivity and objectivity drop away.
It is seen that, what once was thought to be "self" was something of a mental construction.
It is seen that time, space, along with self and others, were things created with thoughts.
It is seen that there is no boundary between self and the world, and that there is this constantly changing, dynamic appearance of that is manifesting moment by moment.

Where then (according to thoughts) is the self if its absence is not self-evident? How is it showing up? Can you show it to me?
More than a decade ago, I had an experience of no-self, when, for a moment, it was completely self-evident that there is no self, just an eternal now, and suddenly I understood what all the pointers meant.

I’m kind of waiting for this level of clarity, where the fact that there is no self is completely self-evident.
So has the self then returned? Where did it go? In what form did it return? If it was self-evident that there is no self at all ever, where did it come from? What experiences its appearance and disappearance? To whom it was obvious that there wasn’t a self and to whom it is obvious that there is now?
Don't answer from logic but LOOK!
I will continue answering tomorrow, ok? I’ve been noticing that sometimes I rush to answer your questions, but I would like to spend more time on them, if it is not a problem. Is it preferable to try to answer them all in a day or two, or is it ok to take a little more time?
Yes, of course, take your time provided that you are looking every day

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Sunyata1
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Re: A hard case?

Postby Sunyata1 » Wed Nov 13, 2024 4:38 am

Hi Rali,

Feeling feet on the floor, simply = sensations (feeling)
Hearing music on my computer, simply = sounds (hearing)
Tasting a sweet tea, simply = tastes (tasting)
Concluding that there is no self because it can’t be found is an intellectual conclusion, not an experiential insight. An experiential insight in the nature of self is reached by exploring the nature of the imaginary self itself (not its absence).
This is important. Apparently, I’ve been doing this wrong for the last few years. For some reason, I assumed that this work was about looking for a self from all angles until a conclusion is reached that there really is no self, and this would provoke a shift…

So, this work is about exploring the nature of the imaginary self (not its absence). For example, looking at how this imaginary self is constructed by thoughts and sensations. And this looking must be done primarily through the senses - looking directly into this sense of self. Right?

Returning to your questions.
Ilona is lovely. I think I’m not in this falling stage yet, because the main belief is still here.
But can THIS be any different to how it appears right now?
No, it can’t.
Are they that much different or the story is different?
The sensations are quite similar. The stories is what varies greatly.
Where is the place where everything is monitored?
Amazing pointer. Where this monitor should be, there is just the experience iself.
Which entity monitors what is going on?
No entity can be found.
What is it that adjusts decisions and actions when something is not going well?
There is no one adjusting decision and actions. They just happen.
Can responsibility and free will be found in actual sensory experience?
No.
Which entity has responsibility and executes free will?
No entity can be found.
How do you know that you know what needs to be done?
Decisions just happen.
Are you in charge of thoughts that appear with regards to planning?
Planning just happens.

I will continue tomorrow.
Yes, of course, take your time provided that you are looking every day
Ok, thank you. I’m looking every day. Usually, I dedicate one hour a day exclusively to this investigation. But there is also an almost constant investigation that happens while I am doing other things.

This has been one of my biggest priorities in life.

I need to see this, once and for all.

Best,
Nelson

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Sunyata1
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Re: A hard case?

Postby Sunyata1 » Thu Nov 14, 2024 4:23 am

Hi Rali,
Did you know in advance the order of how the thoughts will appear - 1,2, ..27?
No. Thoughts just appear from nowhere.
What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?
I will see that there is just life going on, and that I am that. It will be completely obvious that there is no separate self. I will suffer no more with thoughts about “Nelson”, and maybe I will see that everything happening in the world is ok.
What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
No psychological suffering, and a greater appreciation for life.
What do you want not to happen?
There is some fear here of the unknow. Also, there is some fear of deluding myself - like seeing that there is no separate self, when, in fact, I am it. Mind games :)
What are you hoping for?
Happiness.
What is missing?
Happiness.
Is seeking still going on?
Yes. But I've noticed some changes in my experience, like fewer thoughts.
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address specifically?
I’m trying to see where I’m stuck. I can see that what really exists is this (colors, sensations, sounds, tastes, smells and thoughts), and also that the mind creates a story about an “I that is seeing this, resisting to this, etc”. What I’m doing now is trying to see this “I” more closely, especially, how thoughts and sensations creates this illusion.
Do thoughts verify or just describe what is happening?
What “verifies” is attention, comparing descriptions (thoughts) with what is actually happening in experience.
So do thoughts have a certain enlightened knowledge that they check against (aka expectations)?
No, thoughts are just descriptions/representations.
Where then (according to thoughts) is the self if its absence is not self-evident?
Great question. I will meditation a little more on this one, ok?

Best,
Nelson

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Re: A hard case?

Postby poppyseed » Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:50 pm

Hi Nelson
What is missing?
Happiness.
When you say you are hoping for happiness, you may want to take a look at what is behind that want. The desire for happiness often comes with the thought that life will be better when you get it. The mind can imagine a future where you have everything you want and you are finally happy. However, this is just a thought. You can't know what will happen in the future. Period!
The desire for happiness is a form of suffering. This is because it is based on the belief that something is missing from your life. You may believe that you need something outside of yourself to be happy. However, happiness, peace, joy, contentment are already present here/now. It’s only thought that says that it is not here, making it look like something else. Instead of chasing happiness, focus on being content with what is. This means accepting your current situation, even if it is not perfect (it can’t be any other way). When you are content, you are not resisting what is happening. This allows you to experience peace and joy in the present moment.
Furthermore, “happiness” is more like a title to a book not what it is about. You can try to identify the underlying beliefs that are driving your desire for happiness – why is the lack of something particular makes you feel (describe as) unhappy. Once you become aware of these beliefs, you can start to question them. For example, if you believe that you need … (e.g. a new car) to be happy, ask yourself why this particular thing, why not something else. What do you think will happen when you get a new car? Will it really make you happy? By questioning your beliefs, you can start to let go of them. This can help you to find happiness in the present moment, where it has always been. Any time a familiar pattern shows up, look and search for the one who is unhappy, who is hurt, who is angry, who is defending, etc,

If you share a bit more about the current “unhappiness” we can have a look together. Have in mind that this is not a therapy for the self, but seeing what is true and what is not. However, it also involves making friends with (sitting with) icky sensations, allowing them simply to just be, not wanting them to disappear or change.
I’m trying to see where I’m stuck. I can see that what really exists is this (colors, sensations, sounds, tastes, smells and thoughts), and also that the mind creates a story about an “I that is seeing this, resisting to this, etc”. What I’m doing now is trying to see this “I” more closely, especially, how thoughts and sensations creates this illusion.
Yes, we reached a point where it is seen that there is no self (all the “places” have been checked), but thoughts keeps saying it is there (doubt). Doubt is rooted in two major causes – expectations and doubting (second guessing) patterns (“personality”). Both are identification with emotions.

Expectations, are the biggest obstacle to seeing reality as it is. They are all the should’s and should-not’s, the wants and aversions – everything that we consider is the possible (best/top) outcome, to which everything is measured against. Here, it is believed that once the self is removed from the picture, there will be a sudden blast which will remove all suffering, make somehow things perfect – permanent bliss and happiness. Let me remind you, that it is not like the self was there and then it died. It was never there in the first place – it was an illusion. That illusion is not only related to the presence or absence of a entity, but all the activities, “personality” when it comes to “decision making” and emotions (thoughts about sensations) – all that it is identified with. Thus, the illusion needs to be seen at all levels – working with specific beliefs that are problematic. They will not just drop away on their own. Seeing that there is no separate self is NOT the end. Actually, it's just the beginning, the first step. Lots of further inquiry and emotional work is needed to fully live it.
It can take days, months or years, but it's different for everyone, depending on their conditioning. Many people stop here, with the first step, hanging onto a conceptualized idea of there being no personal self. Only a very few lucky ones' sense of self dissipates completely; and although many seekers wish for this, if it happens, it could be often quite unsettling and even frightening to lose all sense of self so suddenly. So the gradual dissolution is more gentle. But this gradual dissolution rarely happens on its own, meaning without the doing of the seeming self. Most of the times further inquiry is needed, as long as any sense of self is left. There is a big difference between seeing that there is no personal self, and the full dissolution of the sense of self. It's about unlearning.

The identification with second guessing patterns, comes from experiences that made you doubt “yourself” (the sceptic). Stories, that you are not good enough, that you have to try harder, that “others” have it much easier, that you are not any special and the good things happen only on other people (jealousy), and nothing good can happen to you (including enlightenment), become a prime narrative which shapes the lens through which everything is described. So you can see, how this can influence the inquiry. It’s not that there is an entity that is all of that, these are just thought patterns that shape the formation of new thoughts. And because they are usually accompanied by icky sensation, they have a weight. Since you are so absorbed in “my story,” you miss what is right in front of your nose: there is no owner of the story. It simply is telling itself. There is no narrator at home as you have seen. Language (thought content) is basically the relationship between concepts – how they are organised. That carries meaning on top of the meaning of the actual concepts. That is why different concepts mean different things to different people and in different situations. One very good analogy of how words and language are organised and how meaning in general is formed, is AI. GPT (Generative pre-trained transformers) are large language models that are based on the semantic relationships between words in sentences (natural language processing). GPT models are trained on a large amount of text. The training consists in predicting the next token (a token being usually a word, sub-word, or punctuation). Throughout this training, GPT models accumulate knowledge about the world, and can then generate “human-like” text by repeatedly predicting the next token.

So in this case, your model is trained on these stories. It can only be changed if the stories are examined and replaced with more authentic ones (about DE). Can you see that?
I will see that there is just life going on, and that I am that. It will be completely obvious that there is no separate self. I will suffer no more with thoughts about “Nelson”, and maybe I will see that everything happening in the world is ok.
What is that “I am” that could potentially be “life”? What is that “I” that experiences / witnesses thoughts about suffering or contentment, have the ability to believe them?

You see all is still very much personal here – even your expectations about awakening. Life happens to you (no-self), in fact you are life. You want life to have less suffering so you as life have to go through less “unpleasant” experiences. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker, no owner of experiences. There is no “life”, “life force”, “THIS”, as a set thing that we could potentially become, it is all just (a) happening… to no one. It is an IS-ness not an AM-ness. As long as you identify with Nelson, THIS, experience, life, no-self, SELF, awareness or whatever, all will still happen to YOU.

Again:
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject? Is it even a human? Or just sensations/feeling?
Is it what you've taken as "you"?


LOOK like you are looking for the first time with no preconceived answers. Don’t try to reason with it by saying, “I already know there is no ‘I’”. You can’t make the sense of an ‘I’ go away by telling yourself that you have already seen it, “been there, done that”.
Each time the sense of ‘me’ as the ‘doer’, or 'thinker', or a 'witness' surfaces again, explore it as if you were doing it for the first time.
Where in the body does it feel like a ‘me’ exists? What kind of sensations are experienced? Where in sensations is the information that this is you? Sometimes the resurfacing of the self-illusion is connected to specific topics, for example, it is clear that you are not the ‘doer’, but it can feel like you are in control. Please let me know, where you feel it the most
Also you can play with these:
Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
What is found?

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Sunyata1
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Re: A hard case?

Postby Sunyata1 » Sat Nov 16, 2024 5:59 am

Hi Rali,

I can see that the 'I sense' is loosening up.

Hearing flute music, simply = sounds (hearing)
Feeling my back on the chair, simply = sensations (feeling)
Seeing LU page, simply = colors (seeing)
Where then (according to thoughts) is the self if its absence is not self-evident?
There is this impression that I’m the body, having this experience, but looking closer, there are just sensations, and sensations can’t have an experience.

The only thing that still seems to sustain this “I” belief is doubt.
How is it showing up?
It is not showing up, but there is doubt.
Can you show it to me?
I can show you the “body”, but all you would see are colors, and I have no proof that this “body” (sensations/colors) is an individual.
So has the self then returned?
It seems that what changed was this layer of thoughts that was added back, creating an apparent self and sense of time. During that experience, it was crystal clear that there was no 'I,' just an eternal now. And I noticed the exact moment when it was overwhelmed again by thought.
Where did it go?
I guess it was never here.
In what form did it return?
I guess it was never here, but an apparent self returned as thoughts/beliefs.
If it was self-evident that there is no self at all ever, where did it come from?
It didn’t.
What experiences its appearance and disappearance?
There is appearance and disappearance.
To whom it was obvious that there wasn’t a self and to whom it is obvious that there is now?
It is not obvious that there is a self now. It lingers more as a doubt.

I will continue tomorrow.

Thank you so much for your kindness and support.

Best,
Nelson

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Sunyata1
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Re: A hard case?

Postby Sunyata1 » Sun Nov 17, 2024 6:05 am

Hi Rali,
What do you think will happen when you get a new car?
There is this belief that when I get what I want I will be at least a little more happy, or I will suffer a little less.
Will it really make you happy?
But, in fact, I’ve played this game my whole life - always believing that something would make me happy, only to want something else just a minute after getting it.

I guess nothing in the future will make me happy, at least not for long. As long as this pattern of always believing that something new in the future will make me happy continues, I probably can’t truly be happy in the present.

The most difficult part is that this 'new thing' is always, in one way or another, associated with survival or the avoidance of suffering.
If you share a bit more about the current “unhappiness” we can have a look together.
To be honest, I don’t know exactly what it is. I have a life that many people would want, but there is always this feeling of fear, weakness, insecurity, inadequacy, loneliness, and I am always trying to get something to alleviate this, including medication for depression. And the funny thing is that sometimes I feel sad for being sad - a silly loop.
But this gradual dissolution rarely happens on its own, meaning without the doing of the seeming self. Most of the times further inquiry is needed, as long as any sense of self is left. There is a big difference between seeing that there is no personal self, and the full dissolution of the sense of self. It's about unlearning.
I believed that this shift would be similar to that experience I had, where it became crystal clear that there is no 'self.' I imagined that deconditioning would naturally occur as other beliefs were confronted with this clear seeing.

What is the proper way to do this inquiry by my own? Is it to always check with DE as we are doing here?

In any case, I’ve been noticing that the sense of self here is loosening up with our conversation. For example, the sense of being a “seer” was still was very strong a few days ago, and now it is much more subtle.
So in this case, your model is trained on these stories. It can only be changed if the stories are examined and replaced with more authentic ones (about DE). Can you see that?
Amazing analogy… Yes, I can see that.
What is that “I am” that could potentially be “life”?
That 'I am' that could potentially be 'life' is life itself, and I believe that I am life because life is happening 'here'. Apparently, I still feel that this is my experience, and I’m simply switching 'Nelson' for 'life as a whole' - so life is experiencing itself.

I'm still trapped in language, aren't I?
What is that “I” that experiences / witnesses thoughts about suffering or contentment, have the ability to believe them?
I can see that I am still trapped in language. Now, “life/me” is the doer.
There is no “life”, “life force”, “THIS”, as a set thing that we could potentially become, it is all just (a) happening… to no one.
But if it is happening to one, why it is “here”? This means that I am life itself, no?

I will need more time to explore the other questions, ok?

Best,
Nelson

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Re: A hard case?

Postby Sunyata1 » Tue Nov 19, 2024 3:36 am

Hi Rali,

Feeling the chair beneath me, simply = sensations (feeling)
Is life happening to a being or as being?
There are just sounds, sensations, colors, tastes and smells. I can’t find a being having this experience, just the experience itself.

But I see that, although it is more subtle, it still feels as if this is happening to “me”, and I’m more identified with this “body” sensations, for example, than with this monitor’s colors.
Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject?
No, this aliveness just is.
Is it even a human?
Good question. It doesn’t feel as a human, but I still believe that this aliveness depends on the body - if the body dies, this aliveness goes away. Of course, this is a belief.
Or just sensations/feeling?
Just sensations/feeling.
Is it what you've taken as "you"?
I feel more like a witness. And since I can’t find a witness, I can only arbitrarily attribute it to the body, or to life as a whole. I can see that I’m considering witnessing as a property of something.
Where in the body does it feel like a ‘me’ exists?
I can’t find a controller or a perceiver in experience, but the whole body (where there are sensations) feels more like “me” than any other perception. It is more like I exists as the body, than the body is a doer or a perceiver, if that makes sense.

There is a tendency to say the the head feels more like ‘me’, but it is really more the whole body. Although I don’t believe that I would be “less me” if a lose a finger.
What kind of sensations are experienced?
Just boldly sensations.
Where in sensations is the information that this is you?
Amazing pointer. There is no information in sensations that this is me. It is a belief, based on the fact that the experience seems to happen from the perspective of the body.
Please let me know, where you feel it the most
The 'I sense' is loosening up, but there is some identification with being the witness and the thinker - altough I can’t find neither in DE.

I’m starting to feel more that what is here is not the body and the environment, but the experience itself (sensations, sounds, etc).

This identification with the thinker is what bothers me the most. Sometimes it is like a cat and mouse game between thoughts, trying to realize that an “I” thought is not me - neither this thought, neither this thought, … It is exhausting.
Does the sense of self have a location?
Not exactly as a controller, but more as existing as the body.
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
The “body”.
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
No. There is no inherent information in this sensations saying that this “body” is me. Just logic/beliefs.
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
It is a witness and a thinker.
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
Sensations, images and thoughts.

Thank you so much for being here, Rali. It is amazing that there are persons who dedicate their time to help others in this way. I say this with tears in my eyes.

Best,
Nelson

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Re: A hard case?

Postby poppyseed » Tue Nov 19, 2024 2:26 pm

Hi Nelson
What experiences its appearance and disappearance?
There is appearance and disappearance.
We are talking about an illusion here. Does the illusion appear and disappear? Does the mirage in the dessert appear and disappear, or there is always only the dessert?
I guess nothing in the future will make me happy, at least not for long. As long as this pattern of always believing that something new in the future will make me happy continues, I probably can’t truly be happy in the present.
Exactly! There is no future (let’s look at time next time). The only happiness/peace is right here, right now, in the midst of all the suffering
To be honest, I don’t know exactly what it is. I have a life that many people would want, but there is always this feeling of fear, weakness, insecurity, inadequacy, loneliness, and I am always trying to get something to alleviate this, including medication for depression. And the funny thing is that sometimes I feel sad for being sad - a silly loop.
You’ve explored already “fear” to see that there is no fear inherently existing, there are just icky sensations that have been layered with a story. So even though there is no entity that is fearful (please check just in case), there is an identification with an emotion. The only way to experience peace and happiness right now, is to allow the icky sensations (labelled unhappiness) detached from the story to simply come, stay and pass, seeing the emptiness of the story. Sensations are like clouds - they come and they go, without leaving a trace. This is more like an instruction for when a thought of specific unhappiness appears, not a generalisation. You can also try that with the fear of not existing (as life, as THIS, as Nelson, as the witness). Try it with all of these.
The most difficult part is that this 'new thing' is always, in one way or another, associated with survival or the avoidance of suffering.
What is there to survive? The body – sensations and colours? Do sensations live, need protection in order to appear? How is this known? From thought? Does thought know anything about anything???

Finally, the elephant in the room…
I feel more like a witness. And since I can’t find a witness, I can only arbitrarily attribute it to the body, or to life as a whole. I can see that I’m considering witnessing as a property of something.
But if it is happening to one, why it is “here”? This means that I am life itself, no?
Property of what? What is there to have properties? Where exactly is "here"? Where is "there"? (Notice the mental images with that and report)
So there must be two – witnessing and what is witnessed. Where does the witnessing end and the witnessed begin? For witnessing to exists inherently, you should be able to observe it independently (without anything else). So is it possible to experience just witnessing without anything else? What are its characteristics that make it inherent?
Listen to whatever sound is present right now. Right now, there is hearing. Does it need a witness in order to appear? Experience and the witnessing are more like the sides of the coin. But that is only in thought, because in DE the coin always lands on the experience side (there is never only witnessing without experience - that is assumed). The wall that you might be staring at right now, does not need an I or witness to be experienced, it just IS there. It just needs seeing to “happen”. Remember the “blackness” exercise (please revisit). Were there “eyes” or a witness or anything that made the seeing happen? Can the body see? Can sensations see? Can sensations think? Can sensations do anything, or just ARE? Can colours see, hear, do stuff, think? Can a label/bunch of letters (e.g. "body") do anything? (please revisit the deeper investigation of the body)
All that there is right now (for example “birds chirping”) is hearing/sound. To say that there is hearing is a thought, to say that there is witnessing is a thought, to say that witnessing is a property of hearing is a thought, to say that hearing is a property of witnessing is a thought. To say that hearing has something in common with seeing and that is witnessing, is a thought, especially when we cannot distinguish where the seeing ends and hearing starts (you are comparing memories/thoughts) – these are all concepts, a “view” (more like a bubble) on reality. There is no problem with concepts if they are seen as empty. The problem comes only when we identify with concepts. Bypassing is a serious consequence of that. THIS is indescribable, indivisible. When you attach a thought to it, you make a something out of nothing (with qualities and characteristics).
Furthermore, life/being/presence/aliveness/existence is actually a label for subtle sensations/feeling. It’s a not a thing/doing. Only thought can generalise descriptions and make them into a “thing”. When you peal all the sticky notes there is just THIS (not a thing) whatever is happening right NOW, experientially appearing as hearing, seeing... “Being” is just another label. “Witnessing” is another label that is just layered on top of just THIS. Even more, for there to be witnessing, something must be happening, a change, a development. Without thought, can anything ever happen or change in order to be witnessed? What you think you see, is not really there. Whatever you look at is not what you think it is. And it will never be – you simply cannot know or describe what it IS. It is unknowable. So however you describe it (reality), it is a form of identification, an illusion, a delusion (if it is believed).
But I see that, although it is more subtle, it still feels as if this is happening to “me”, and I’m more identified with this “body” sensations, for example, than with this monitor’s colors.
Exactly! But what makes the "body" sensations (are there not body sensations) “you”? What part of them is you? Does the body (sensations) experience sensations or the “body” is sensations (a label)? Can sensations think, see, feel, smell, taste or hear?
Close your eyes and touch your forehead. There is a sensation + a mental image (of a forehead) + thoughts about a forehead, right? Pay attention to just the sensation (no thoughts). Where exactly is the “I” or the “witness” or the feeler" in that sensation? Where exactly is the “body” in that sensation? What is there without the thoughts and mental images? Notice that there might be mental images not only of a "forehead" but also other mental images. What are these of?
This identification with the thinker is what bothers me the most. Sometimes it is like a cat and mouse game between thoughts, trying to realize that an “I” thought is not me - neither this thought, neither this thought, … It is exhausting.
Then just give up trying to figure it all out with thought. What is actually happening? (blank!)
How can you be the thinker if you cannot predict your next thought? There are thoughts about an I/Nelson, but what are they pointing to? What is the thought body pointing to? There is a word: n-e-l-s-o-n . Is that word attached to anything (literarily)?
Or is it just a sequencing of letters and words that creates the illusion of a separate I / mind / nelson / witness, like the frames of a movie, where rapid series of still images create the illusion of movement? When frame rate slows down all the illusion of movement is lost.
Furthermore, even though th thought "body" is describing sensations, is the word b-o-d-y attached to anything - like a hook or glue? There are sensations, there are thoughts. Is there any arrows between them, a bridge, a safety pin, anything that might suggest in any way that the one is linked to the other?


On a different subject, notice that the narration sometimes seems like a dialog or an argument – two or more sides. Notice how there is more identification with one than the other. Notice also how the other one sounds like someone else (a parent, a spouse, a grandparent, a teacher, etc). There is a certain dynamic in how the “opinions” are presented. Observe! What is that? Which one is you?
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Sunyata1
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Re: A hard case?

Postby Sunyata1 » Thu Nov 21, 2024 4:09 am

Hi Rali,

Hearing a music on my computer, simply = sounds (hearing)

Yesterday, I noticed that there is no control over the sounds, sensations, colors, smells, tastes, and thoughts happening here, and this had an effect – a sort of relaxation, as there is nothing here, really, that can be stopped/controlled.
Does the illusion appear and disappear? Does the mirage in the dessert appear and disappear, or there is always only the dessert?
If there is nothing there it can’t appear and disappear. At most, it can be recognized as an illusion.

I will continue tomorrow.

Best,
Nelson

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Re: A hard case?

Postby Sunyata1 » Sat Nov 23, 2024 4:50 am

Hi Rali,

Hearing a car passing by, simply = sounds (hearing)
The only way to experience peace and happiness right now, is to allow the icky sensations (labelled unhappiness) detached from the story to simply come, stay and pass, seeing the emptiness of the story.
What do you mean by emptiness of the story?
What is there to survive?
I would say the body, but I can see that this a belief, just a thought content. Objectively, there are only sensations, sounds, colors, smells, tastes and thoughts happening - or this. Even all of these are labels.
The body – sensations and colours?
Objectively, there is no body.
Do sensations live, need protection in order to appear?
No. There is this belief that this experience can end (death), and that is possible to do things to stop it from ending (survive). But these are also thought content.

Objectively, there are only sensations, sounds, colors, smells, tastes and thoughts happening - or this. There is nothing living it, nor managing it.
How is this known? From thought? Does thought know anything about anything???
Thoughts can’t know anything, they just are. Thought content can say anything. I guess why they say what they say (is this useful? to whom?).
Property of what? What is there to have properties?
Objectively, there is nothing like a “body” to have a property like “consciousness”. I also wouldn’t know how something can be “owned”.
Where exactly is "here"?
Thought say: here, inside this body’s “consciousness”, or inside this body’s field of experience. There are mental images of things outside this office, for example. But, again, objectively there is nothing like a “body”, nor “consciousness”, although the way experience is fluid really feels like consciousness.
Where is "there"?
Supposedly, “outside this body’s field of experience”. Like behind this office’s door.
Where does the witnessing end and the witnessed begin?
There are only sensations, sounds, colors, smells, tastes and thoughts happening.

I'm responding a bit more slowly in recent days because something is clearly happening here, and I'm dedicating part of my available time to just letting it sink in. Please let me know if you'd like me to respond faster.

I will continue tomorrow.

Thank you.

Best,
Nelson

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Re: A hard case?

Postby poppyseed » Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:47 pm

Hi Nelson
I'm responding a bit more slowly in recent days because something is clearly happening here, and I'm dedicating part of my available time to just letting it sink in. Please let me know if you'd like me to respond faster.
Your process, however it unfolds, is deeply valuable and beautifully unique, and there's no rush to arrive anywhere. There are no medals at the end, no finishing line either. The momentum is kept when this is a priority, so as long as this is part of your every day, then all is good :)

Looking forward to the rest of the answers
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: A hard case?

Postby Sunyata1 » Mon Nov 25, 2024 3:31 am

Hi Rali,

Feeling my feet on the chair = simply sensation (feeling)
Your process, however it unfolds, is deeply valuable and beautifully unique, and there's no rush to arrive anywhere. There are no medals at the end, no finishing line either. The momentum is kept when this is a priority, so as long as this is part of your every day, then all is good :)
Thank you :)
So is it possible to experience just witnessing without anything else?
Great point. I don’t know, because I never had a moment where everything was absent, it is just an assumption. But, here and now, it is not possible to find a separate/independent witnessing. There are just perceptions.
What are its characteristics that make it inherent?
It is not possible to find a separate/independent witnessing, although it really feels as if everything is happening in a kind of knowing space. But I see that calling this a space is a projection of the mind. There are just perceptions.
Does it need a witness in order to appear?
I don’t think so. Objectively, there are just the sounds. And if there was a witness, how it would experience the sound? There would be a copy of the sound inside of it? It is kind of recursive.

I also noted that the question “what is witnessing the sound?” creates the duality itself. It gives the impression that there is something separate, and that it is just a matter of finding it. The premise is wrong.
Remember the “blackness” exercise (please revisit).
Ok.
Were there “eyes” or a witness or anything that made the seeing happen?
There is no evidence of a seer/witness. There is just the seeing.
Can the body see?
Sensations and colors can’t see.
Can sensations see?
No.
Can sensations think?
No.
Can sensations do anything, or just ARE?
Sensations just are.
Can colours see, hear, do stuff, think?
No.
Can a label/bunch of letters (e.g. "body") do anything? (please revisit the deeper investigation of the body)
A label/thought can’t do anything. It just is.

Something that opened my mind was realizing that, objectively, there is only perception, and any description of what this is all about is something learned. A completely different description could be learned instead, which shows how arbitrary these descriptions can be.

You pointed this out when you talked about theories like Boltzmann’s brain, but it just really “clicked” for me yesterday.

I’ve been noticing this pattern of pointers taking some time to “click”.
There is no problem with concepts if they are seen as empty.
Again, what do you mean by “empty”?

Is it that it only exists as a thought, and what it points to cannot be found in other "senses"?

Another thing that I realized is that thought exists as thought :) A story layer that is not tied in any way to the other perceptions. Something that you also had pointed out.
When you attach a thought to it, you make a something out of nothing (with qualities and characteristics).
I guess this is the empty you talked about.

Hmmm... so we are trying to see that the "I" is empty.
Without thought, can anything ever happen or change in order to be witnessed?
No, because to realize that something changed it is necessary to compare THIS to a memory.

I will continue tomorrow.

Best,
Nelson


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