I'd like to awaken please

[Basil]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

I understand this as meaning that there isn't a humunculus behind my eyes - there's just experience and that's not happening "to someone". My identifying with the voice that's narrating my life or the volume encompased by my skin is a bit of a joke.

What are you looking for at LU?

I'd like for this understanding to click and to be in my face and unavoidable in daily life so that I can get on with the rest of the path and make progress on dissolving the conditioning etc. I feel like I'm somewhat spinning in cirles. The progress I've made so far has remade the person I am to a significant degree but there's still this hesitancy and resistance to life that is just exhausting. I'd rather opt out of the psychology thing entirely.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

I expect someone who knows what needs to be seen to precisely guide me into seeing this - to recognize when I'm averting my gaze or misunderstanding instructions. I also expect this exercise to unify my focus and to introduce a degree of accountability. I would like to "go forward" and "not slip back". As mentioned - exhausted with the spinning in circles aspect.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

I'm around 30 and I was super rational and scientific all my life, somewhat autistic also. Very thinking-oriented, attached to my intelligence. Lots of suffering because I didn't get how the social games work growing up which resulted in loneliness and an inability to belong. Mostly figured this all out on my own from books and experiences and now I'm pretty satisfied with my personality and people like me.

Got into meditation around 2 years ago but I'm struggling with consistency. In the last couple of years I've also had experiences with psychedelics which I credit with blasting open the doors of perception and convincing me that an alternative to the daily thought illusion is possible. I don't think substances lead to lasting changes however. The meditation insights I had lead to a dropping away of a lot of shame and trauma. They don't seem to work with my anxiety however which is now my main problem in life.

I've ingested lots of nonduality content from all sorts of angles, read a couple meditation books. I'm pretty well versed in buddhist terminology at this point. At the same time I know that all the reading is futile and seeing is needed and it frustrates me a lot that this thinking and analyzing tendency of my mind is so strong.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[poppyseed]

Hi Basil
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
By the way...

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

Why only 9? What is so important or fixed in your beliefs that you can't question them?
Love
Rali

[Basil]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for taking up guiding me :)
You can call me Max.

I've familiarised myself with the FAQ and disclaimers.
To be honest I do hope what we're doing will help my anxiety - maybe not in the sense of getting rid of it or avoiding it but in having a way through it. Is that hope misguided?

I think I understand Direct Experience pretty well - sometimes it's difficult for me to notice sensations in detail but the line between them and thoughts seems clear.

What time zone are in?

I'm in central europe UTC+1. Communicating daily sounds good!

I'll be meditating throughout this but I will stay away from books, talks and such.

I've reached out to Luchana about the zoom meetings before we started talking so I plan on attending the one tomorrow if you're fine with that.

Why only 9? What is so important or fixed in your beliefs that you can't question them?

It's more about a lack of conviction or you could call it doubt/uncertainty. I have a tendency to second-guess if this is really the most important thing for me. I do want to question my beliefs.

Best,
Max

[poppyseed]

Hi Max
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I'm in central europe UTC+1

I'm GMT+2. Perfect :)

I've reached out to Luchana about the zoom meetings before we started talking so I plan on attending the one tomorrow if you're fine with that.

No problem. We all have different ways of guiding but we all point to the same thing :)

To be honest I do hope what we're doing will help my anxiety - maybe not in the sense of getting rid of it or avoiding it but in having a way through it. Is that hope misguided?

Not at all :)

It's more about a lack of conviction or you could call it doubt/uncertainty. I have a tendency to second-guess if this is really the most important thing for me. I do want to question my beliefs.

Thank you for your honest reply! It’s good to know what to expect ;)

Communicating daily sounds good!

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Basil]

I see that I'm subscribed :>

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I don't intellectually expect anything to be different. There's still going to be the body and the world and the thoughts about all of it still narrating away. I understand that the only difference would be my no longer identifying with that story. I'll probably identify with experience itself? (Confused about this as some people say Everything/God etc and some people say Presence/Witness/I am sense which seem different)

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I imagine that a lot of the self-centered activity of the mind will lose it's pull though I'm not sure of the extent of it. I can't help but think of my experiences with investigating perception under psychedelics: I've seen how absolutely false thoughts are and how they can't even touch... just This. When I oriented to This instead of thoughts it got really quiet and I was just in unbroken presence. Alas these insights didn't translate into everyday life and haven't produce lasting change.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I don't have a good answear to this question. I guess I've already worked through a lot of the fear of not existing. It doesn't sound bad. I think there's a remaining fear of losing control.

4. What are you hoping for?

Mostly I hope for a dropping away of the inhibitions that keep me inactive and from expressing my personality. I kind of carry with me this uncomfortable tightness everywhere I go. I've only experienced release from it on a couple of occasions. I have a strong feeling there is a lot of energy tied up in the body.

5. What is missing?

Again comparing to the altered state: while sober I don't seem to be able to achieve this degree of clarity to just feel in my bones how fake every memory or imagining is compared to "reality". The fakeness was almost repulsive. So there is uncertainty if I'm able to Look closely enough to see it. I'm also not convinced there isn't a decider here. The appearance of thoughts has sort of levels where it feels like I'm choosing them from a bubbling ocean of proto-thoghts. Those appear on their own but it still feels like it is me who's deciding the direction the thought stream will go.

Best wishes
Max

[poppyseed]

Hey Max

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I don't have a good answear to this question. I guess I've already worked through a lot of the fear of not existing. It doesn't sound bad. I think there's a remaining fear of losing control.

Like I said, it’s just a shift of perception. It's not that you ever was in control and all of a sudden things will change. How can an illusion have control? An illusion is an illusion. It has never existed and it never will. Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable? Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we are in control, but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker, and no one in charge. Things are just happening.

What we’ll see soon is that fear is just a sensation with a thought. Fear has a purpose – to protect old ways, conditioning, beliefs, hopes - the survival of the imaginary self. So, obviously when threatened there will be fear involved. But once it is seen that there is nothing that needs protection, it falls away. How we deal with fear initially, is to acknowledge it, thank it for doing its job, allow it to be there, don’t fight it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary...

Again comparing to the altered state: while sober I don't seem to be able to achieve this degree of clarity to just feel in my bones how fake every memory or imagining is compared to "reality". The fakeness was almost repulsive. So there is uncertainty if I'm able to Look closely enough to see it. I'm also not convinced there isn't a decider here. The appearance of thoughts has sort of levels where it feels like I'm choosing them from a bubbling ocean of proto-thoghts. Those appear on their own but it still feels like it is me who's deciding the direction the thought stream will go.

Thank you for that clarification! Just to make it a bit clearer…
If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[Basil]

Hi Rali

Thanks for addressing my doubts :)
Sorry, my mind was busy today - I'll reply tomorrow.

[poppyseed]

Hi Max
Are you still interested in a inquiry???

Love
Rali

[Basil]

Rali!

Sorry for disappearing. Maks has really difficult internal problems related to shame and doubt and he got himself into a loop where he wasn't happy with the quality of hia answers to your questions nor with his level of commitment to the inquiry which nominally ahould be to absolute most important focus in his life and yet other stupid habist and procrastination proved stronger motivators haha. Today "I"'ve seen through self. Everything is hapenning on it's own. Including thoughts which can be "paid attention" to or not. No real difference. I'ts more correct to say they've been believed and fed with wnergy. Now evwrything is happening all at once without a center. There is doubt that comes in that says that maybe "I"'ll forget how to see this but it too is kind of seen through. There's thoughts that pray to god that "I" don't loose this and revert to mind-identification lol

Lots of love

Really interested in next steps lol. Mostly due to this doubt :D lot's of fear that "I" will lose this :D so funny

Rali I really also want to express love and appreciation. I's great that you do this for people

[Basil]

Wow previously there was this ability to "not notice" part of experience for example Maks would forget his arms and legs when he was thinking but that's not possible anymore. Everything is just happening and it's happening in the same space and simultaneously

[Basil]

Lol so confused as to what "I" should do next hahahaha

[Basil]

There is no next, is there? :D it's just this forever

[Basil]

Hahaha "might as well feel good". The self talk is improving lol

[Basil]

There is a sense of fear because there is no going back asleep. But this is what Maks really wanted and it was always fine anyways. Nothing changes. Some reassurance of these fears would be appreciated - not sure what to tell them or what the truth is or whatever - you understand. There is lots of fears and doubts and it would be great to get some guidance on how best to difuse them

[Basil]

Ok there is a steady chilling out as it sinks in that it's fine :)

It's so funny the excitement that can be read in the typos etc