Grateful for any help

[SharMen]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is there is no “me” identity that is real. Who I think I am is really just thoughts and beliefs. I have not been able to find this person and sometimes I will laugh b/c it’s so silly that I think this person is real. There is no proof of its existence. I cannot find it. But I still act as if I can influence people/events.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking to really know the truth of no self, not just intellectually understanding. I say I believe this whole heartedly, yet why do I still not notice a difference in my perspective of how life is showing up and my role in it?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect someone to help me see what is blocking my ability to really see this, to “get it”. I expect someone who will help me question beliefs, especially beliefs that I am not even aware that I am believing.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Basically lots of dabbling over the last 40 years. Some intense searching, other times thoughts that say “my life is too busy and stressful to be working on finding peace.” In the past 2 years I have mainly followed Rupert, Adyashanti, Angelo D., have done The Awakening Curriculum 1st Fetter and now LU by reading the forum and both of Ilona’s books

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[jrm72]

Hello SharMen,

My name is James and I can be your guide.

This works best in a Q&A style rather than a discussion, because a discussion is more intellectualising, and what is needed is LOOKING. Also best if you post every day. If you know you can’t do this, tell me and a more suitable guide will find you.


Have you read the info at these two links? (please confirm) -

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041



There is no one judging answers here, so be as honest as possible in your answers and inquiry.

This exploration is based on direct experience (DE) - sight, smell, taste, sound, physical sensation and observed thoughts. Analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
All other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on can be distractions. Put your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is.

Answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Using the quote function makes things clearer as the thread progresses.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT." -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ



What would you like for me to call you?


You say -

"to be working on finding peace"

Peace may or may not be there, no guarantees. Does that change your desire to see the truth?


What do you think is the reason that you haven't woken up yet?


❤️🖖

[SharMen]

Hi James, thanks so much for agreeing to work with me. ❤️

Have you read the info at these two links?

yes

Peace may or may not be there, no guarantees. Does that change your desire to see the truth?

This does not change my desire to see the truth. I don’t know what I want to be different. Everything will be the same right?

What do you think is the reason that you haven't woken up yet?

Ah yes, the question I keep asking!
Fear of giving up my role as a mother had been an issue before when my kids were younger. Not so sure that is a problem now. There is some doubt that it is possible for me since I’ve been doing this for so long. Only recently I’ve realized it's not about learning. I spent decades doing the learning. I’m not interested in learning anything else now. Just want to see it.

🙏Sharon

[jrm72]

Morning Sharon,

I don’t know what I want to be different. Everything will be the same right?

You've hit on something here that used to drive me crazy.
Guides would say to me - nothing changes, but everything's different.
And I would think, well that's impossible.
Then someone told me this- You're in the desert and very thirsty, you see an oasis of water on the horizon, you rush towards it. When you get there, there's no water it was a mirage. Yet when you get back to your original position, it still looks like water on the horizon. Nothings changed but everything is different.

Now this brings up an important point - Don't believe anything I say until you can verify it for yourself. So the mirage may be seen through right now or whenever you have that experience.

Fear of giving up my role ...
There is some doubt ...
it's not about learning...

Lots of people have fear about this, there will be changes (see mirage above).
Going through any change, means there's a period of uncertainty and not knowing. Doesn't mean anythings good or bad, it's just unknown and there's a lot we don't know.


Here's an example - Why do chameleons change colour?
Maybe that questions put some doubt in your mind, maybe what you know isn't right, maybe you might learn something and need to change your mind?
Are you fearful right now?
Your favourite search engine can help you solve this mystery. If only everything was that easy.


Doubts a biggy. If you had no doubt you wouldn't be here.


There's nothing to learn, just things to experience.
So let's try something -



Hold a hand out in front of you.
Now turn the palm over, then back again, keep repeating these movements.
Watch like a hawk.
Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Who chose which hand to use?
Who decided whether the hand started palm up or palm down?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
Track any decision point when a thought made the decision to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
Now move the hand in a random pattern.
Who or what chose the pattern?


❤️🖖

[SharMen]

Hi James 😊

Yet when you get back to your original position, it still looks like water on the horizon. Nothings changed but everything is different.

The mirage is still there for me to see but I know it’s not real so I won’t interact with it anymore. The selfing/mind will still be there but I know it isn’t real and I won’t …. I don’t know how to finish this sentence. I won’t attach to it? I won’t believe the stories? Maybe I don’t need to finish the sentence. I’ll just know it’s not real.

Why do chameleons change colour?
Maybe that questions put some doubt in your mind, maybe what you know isn't right, maybe you might learn something and need to change your mind?
Are you fearful right now?

Ah, yes. Very nice example. I have doubts about the chameleon. I may learn why. I am not fearful about this. (and I did look it up. My knowledge was not correct. I changed my mind. Very cool 😊)

If only everything was that easy.

LOL

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Who chose which hand to use?
Who decided whether the hand started palm up or palm down?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

My left hand went up because my right hand was holding the tablet. I did not have to think this through. It just occurred.
The hand repeatedly turned over and back. There was a thought: Stop. The hand kept turning. There was another thought: Stop now. The hand kept turning. Another thought: STOP TURNING! Hand kept turning. Smiling bc seeing the thought had no effect on the hand’s movement.
Just watching to see what would happen next.

Now move the hand in a random pattern.
Who or what chose the pattern?

Hand did not do this. I re-read “the directions” with thought “I need to do this”. Waiting for hand to follow. It did not do this. Ha ha. Thought had no control.

Sometimes I play this game when driving. I know there are several ways to get to where I need to go. I watch and see which way I will go. I wonder if I’ll turn down this street or go straight and go a different way. This “game” helps me see that I am not in control. Driving happens. I also notice that when I’m late then I believe the mind that says I need to go this way because it is faster and less traffic. I drive the way mind says to go. Why do I believe mind when there is stress? This seems to be the case in other others of life too. I believe mind when I feel stressed or anxious.

🙏 Sharon

[jrm72]

Hi Sharon,

don’t know how to finish this sentence.

You've hit on another important point here.
Words are all you and I have to communicate with, yet words can be a barrier to what we are trying to achieve here.

Try this -

The menu is not the meal
The map is not the territory
The word is not the thing


Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise or search for a picture of an apple.

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.


❤️🖖

[SharMen]

words can be a barrier to what we are trying to achieve here.

Hi James, I had to read and re-read and sit with your guidance today. I understand it at a basic level but feel I am missing the deeper point.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No, apple is just an agreed upon word that describes something experienced. What is known is taste, color, smell etc…

There is a cat next to me. What is experienced are variations in color, sensation, sound and thoughts arising. I’m not really experiencing a cat. Do I have this right?

Is the pointer showing me that all thoughts about anything happening are putting a barrier up that prevents the true experiencing?
goodnight,
Sharon

[jrm72]

Morning Sharon,

words can be a barrier to what we are trying to achieve here.
Hi James, I had to read and re-read and sit with your guidance today. I understand it at a basic level but feel I am missing the deeper point.

Here's the most difficult pointer I will ever give you - relax.
Think of it this way, if something I say doesn't make sense or feels difficult to grasp, then it's what I've said that's wrong, I need to find a better way to say it. As with pretty much everything about this journey, things don't make sense until they do. It's like learning to ride a bike or drive a car, it seems impossible until you can, and then it's like - what was the problem.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
No, apple is just an agreed upon word that describes something experienced. What is known is taste, color, smell etc…
There is a cat next to me. What is experienced are variations in color, sensation, sound and thoughts arising. I’m not really experiencing a cat. Do I have this right?

Yes, you have it right, be careful with the agreed upon bit. You can say one thing and it can mean something totally different to anyone else. But let's not kid ourselves, you will never not see a cat. I mean if you don't see a cat something is seriously wrong. It's not getting lost in cat and missing everything else that's the point. For once we label something we in one sense stop seeing it, recognition has done its job and we move onto the next label. And it's not just noun labels (ie cat, dog, house, spouse etc) it's any word.

Personal story - One day I felt overwhelmed. Overwhelmed is a label, so what's there when the label is removed. Tightness in the head, weight on chest, pressure in hands. They're all labels (everything has a post it note on it, so peel it off and see what you find).
So removing those labels gave me - I am feeling sensation in my body and thoughts in my head. This is where it starts to get difficult to describe, for once those labels are removed were at the level of sensations. Removing these non verbal label peels away another layer. All I can tell you is there was a place that obviously words can't describe. When I returned, again the best I can do is say there was nothing and it was timeless and peaceful. You'll here other people describe their experiences of this totally differently. It seems to be different for everyone.

Is the pointer showing me that all thoughts about anything happening are putting a barrier up that prevents the true experiencing?

That's a better description than I can come up with.





What does the word self mean to you?


❤️🖖

[SharMen]

Here's the most difficult pointer I will ever give you - relax.

Lol, thanks for the needed reminder. The Problem Solver role has definitely been lessening over the last few months but sometimes I do go into Must Figure It Out mode.

For once we label something we in one sense stop seeing it, recognition has done its job and we move onto the next label.

This one provided a moment of wow. All day long this is happening! Like a film over everything that keeps things from being seen clearly. Label this, label that, identify this, identify that…. the mind giving input on everything.

Thanks for sharing your personal experience of removing labels. Right now there is the label annoyance based on things happening in my house as typing is happening. Removing the label annoyance, I experience an increase in breathing and thoughts in my head. Are the thoughts in my head? Where are my thoughts? There is noticing that the thoughts do not belong to anyone so not “my” thoughts. Noticing that these are all just thoughts. Frustration that there are so many thoughts. Frustration is another label. Just breathing. Breathing happening. Calmness and breathing.

What does the word self mean to you?

I’ve believed that self is who I am – Sharon – this entity who has a history of experiences that makes me who I am. But when looking for this self, there is zero evidence that it exists. Thoughts have created this story that I believe. It is not an actual entity. Just thoughts and more thoughts tightly woven together. But no real thing. Like the mirage in your earlier example. It seems real but is not really there. Most of the day I seem to forget it’s not real. In the busyness of the day, I don’t stop to think about it. Like I am heading towards the mirage trying to get to the water, forgetting that it is seen but not real. Only when I stop to notice, then I can once again realize that the self is not real.
🙏
Sharon

[jrm72]

Morning Sharon,

Are the thoughts in my head? Where are my thoughts? There is noticing that the thoughts do not belong to anyone so not “my” thoughts.

When you open your eyes seeing happens, no effort no choice.
When sounds occur hearing happens, no effort no choice.
Smelling, tasting, sensation of touch, no effort no choice.
But also the brain, thoughts happen, no effort no choice.



This next exercise can be performed using any sense, but is usually easiest with hearing -

When awareness of a sound happens, look for the hearer.
Then look for the differences between the heard, the hearing and the hearer.

Let me know what you find.

❤️🖖

[SharMen]

Hi James,
I have been noticing hearing all day.

When awareness of a sound happens, look for the hearer.
Then look for the differences between the heard, the hearing and the hearer.

Let me know what you find.

Sound occurs and hearing happens. I try to see if the sound is coming from somewhere and going somewhere but I cannot find this. There is just the hearing of sound. Mind tries to formulate that it starts “out there” and is heard “in here” but there is just hearing of sound, no location. It just is. There is no evidence of a “hearer”. There is nothing to say about a hearer, the heard and hearing. Hearing is just happening.

It's a little trickier with seeing. There is the belief that the eyes are seeing something out there, which creates a separation of the two. But when I really look, there is no separation or distance. There is just this right here.

Goodnight 😴
Sharon

[jrm72]

Morning Sharon,

There is nothing to say about a hearer, the heard and hearing. Hearing is just happening.

Yes, no hearer, no smeller, no taster, no toucher, no seer, no thinker.
It's all just happening.





For a fun thing to do -


Type out first 10 words that come to mind and post them here.


Here's my 10, I have no idea what the first one will be let alone the 10th -

maybe fasting water giant quaint fond canoe nearly pop trend

(actually they weren't the strict first 10, there seemed to be a selection process going on that said yes and no to the words that came up, but none of the process of word appearance or selection was known.

Let me know what it's like for you?


❤️🖖

[SharMen]

Hi James,

Type out first 10 words that come to mind and post them here.

When I first woke up:
Why breathe look dog type looking breathing waiting noise blank thoughts

Another time later in day:
Queen monkey dog phone cat yellow blue sad move spoon
Lol. Where do they come from and why do they appear? No one is choosing them. Fun way to see that thoughts just appear.
Talk to you tmrw!
Sharon

[jrm72]

Morning Sharon,

Try this -

Butt Chair Exercise


Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them?
Or only the Sensation with no clear division?


It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just LOOK.

Then write what is true.



❤️🖖

[SharMen]

Hi James!

Is there any clear dividing line between them?
Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

I've played around with this one a lot before. What I find is that I cannot tell that I have a body. The sensation just exists but I can't find a location for it. I pretend that I am a newborn and have no sense of a body, so I have no sense of where that sensation would be located. This seems to work well for me. Or if I wake up in middle of night and it is dark and I can't see my hand, I will try to sense where my hand is in relation to the air/room and I can't tell a distinction. I have no sense of a hand existing, just a sensation with no location.

good night,
Sharon 😊