Clueless

[Zendog2]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that the self is a fictional concept that I have constructed over my lifetime composed of a myriad of thoughts. When I am identified with thought I believe it is real.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for guidance to help me step into the unknown. Support to help me if I get stuck and community since this is a solitary journey. It would be nice to deeply realize "no-self", see reality as it actually is and come to know my true self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am not really sure. I have had a few conversations previously with a realized peer/teacher. Those conversations included pointers to the non-conceptual, questions that often are unanswerable and sometimes disorienting, probing, possibly some suggestions for orientation and practice.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
25 years ago I was introduced to the concept of presence and no-self through “The Power of Now”. I understood the concepts and attempted to stay present as much as possible. The knowledge and taste of peace helped me through the years but after studying a lot of Eckhart's work I kind of ran out of steam and the years wore on. One and a half years ago I retired and found myself with far too much time and thoughts. The panicky feelings that came up spurred me to look at psychology first then I was pointed back to spirituality again and I found so many resources available. I started looking for material that I could consume. The Sedona Method appeared and I followed their methods for about 6 months. I learned a lot and felt better but something about the organization and material seemed off. Then I was pointed to “Simply Always Awake”. I spent 6 months reading Angelos book, watching the videos and trying many of his practices. I ended up here after coming across the fetters and being pointed here by “The Awakening Curriculum”.

I've done meditation, inquiry, self inquiry, Koan, sense exploration, an online Sesshin, a couple of online retreats and ongoing practices to stay present in daily life.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[jrm72]

Hello Zendog2,

My name is James and I can be your guide.

This works best in a Q&A style rather than a discussion, because a discussion is more intellectualising, and what is needed is LOOKING. Also best if you post every day. If you know you can’t do this, tell me and a more suitable guide will find you.


Have you read the info at these two links? (please confirm) -

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041



There is no one judging answers here, so be as honest as possible in your answers and inquiry.

This exploration is based on direct experience (DE) - smell, taste, sound, physical sensation and observed thoughts. Analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
All other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on can be distractions. Put your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is.

Answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Using the quote function makes things clearer as the thread progresses.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT." -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ



What would you like for me to call you?


You say -

come to know my true self.

What if there is no true self?


What do you think is the reason that you haven't woken up yet?


❤️🖖

[Zendog2]

My name is James and I can be your guide.

Thank you James for being here and being willing to engage in this process with me/us. My name is Scott.

Also best if you post every day.

I am enthusiastic about communicating with you everyday.

Have you read the info at these two links? (please confirm) -

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Yes

What would you like for me to call you?

You can call me Scott.

What if there is no true self?

The true self is a concept that I have heard from some spiritual non-dual teachers. I thought it referred to what was remaining after the self was seen through. If there is no true self there is no true self. Somehow I guess I felt that it was synonymous with seeing reality through no filters, as it really is. It seems like I'm doing lots of thinking and words here.

What do you think is the reason that you haven't woken up yet?

I am not sure why I haven't woken up or even if I have or have not. I feel the same as I have in the past with some seeming improvements in the way I view the world but still seem to be operating as a person separate from everything else, often reactive with an urge to protect and control.

It might be from trying to hard seeking too hard. I spent a lifetime trying to protect myself from unpleasant feelings, events and thoughts by learning, concluding and constructing rules of living for protection.

[Zendog2]

What do you think is the reason that you haven't woken up yet?

Doubt may be a contributing factor.

[jrm72]

Hello Scott,

Yes doubts a biggie.

Also don't take anything I say as true unless or until you can verify it for yourself.

Thank you for your replies, there's lots we'll get onto, but let's start with a basic exercise -



A pointer to look at "control. "

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Now move the hand in a random pattern.

Who or what chose the pattern?


❤️🖖

[Zendog2]

Hi James.

What time zone are you in? I am asking for scheduling purposes.

A pointer to look at "control. "
Palm Flipping Exercise

How is the movement controlled?

I don't know. I don't need to think about it. There seems to be a sense of doer-ship but it feels like it's an assumption because the body is doing it.

Does a thought control it?

No. I am not thinking about it at all.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, I can't find one when i check my sense gates or even in thought.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

I don't know. I can internally verbalize (flip hand) and flip it but it seems obvious the "thought" had nothing to do with it. I can think the same thing and not flip it or the opposite (think Don't flip and flip). It's amazing.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

I have no idea. Until I read this question I never thought about which hand I was flipping. My mind wants to say
"Its your dominant hand silly!". Still no thought was involved.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, not in senses or thought.

Now move the hand in a random pattern.
Who or what chose the pattern?

I have no idea. I can't find a thought or person or anything really. I actually tried this out of curiosity before i saw the question and was amazed at how intricate the movements were without a single thought.

[Zendog2]

Hi James. Regarding this.

All other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on can be distractions. Put your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is.

I have been working with the fetters on "The Awakening Curriculum" website (currently Fetter 2). Do you recommend holding off on that for now?

Scott

[jrm72]

Hi Scott,

I have been working with the fetters on "The Awakening Curriculum" website (currently Fetter 2). Do you recommend holding off on that for now?

Usually (as in life) it's better to do one thing at a time, but that's not always possible.
Nothing is prescriptive here, so do what works for you. The process we're working through here is direct pointing about fetter 1.
Do you feel you've already seen through self?

What time zone are you in? I am asking for scheduling purposes.

I'm in the East of England, so currently British Summer Time.
No need to have any extra pressure about timings, post at times convenient to you. I usually check in on LU a couple of times a day,

doer-ship

Yes, look to see if there's a doer?
(which you've pretty much answered anyway, but be totally clear)

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No, not in senses or thought.

So if not in sense or thought, where else?





❤️🖖

[Zendog2]

James,

Usually (as in life) it's better to do one thing at a time, but that's not always possible.
Nothing is prescriptive here, so do what works for you. The process we're working through here is direct pointing about fetter 1.
Do you feel you've already seen through self?

I have looked in the 6 gates several times and not found any self. Occasionally a reaction occurs and i will look for a self wondering why the reaction and still can not find one. How will I know when self is seen through? Little or no shift is noticed.
i am fully open to revisiting fetter one or any other topic as often as needed.

Yes, look to see if there's a doer?
(which you've pretty much answered anyway, but be totally clear)

It seems like once an intention is set the body just moves and the mind throws thought all over the action and tries to take ownership.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No, not in senses or thought.
So if not in sense or thought, where else?

i cant find anywhere else to look. i am just wanting to be methodical to be sure i cant miss it.

[jrm72]

Afternoon Scott,

I have looked in the 6 gates

Never heard of them, tell me more.

How will I know when self is seen through?

It can be anything from the proverbial flash of lightning (which almost never happens), to something so subtle you may not realise it's happened until much later and look back and go 'oh'.

i am fully open to revisiting fetter one or any other topic as often as needed.

Everything you and I will do here is fetter 1.
Since you know the fetter model, fetters 2 and 3 usually come for free, that is they are also seen through when fetter 1 falls.

It seems like once an intention is set

Who or what sets the intention?

and the mind throws thought all over the action and tries to take ownership.

Yes, that's why we have to let the content of thoughts pass by.

i cant find anywhere else to look.

There isn't anywhere else to look, it all only direct experience.





As a trivial example -

Why do you think chameleons change colour?

Use your search engine of choice.

What's different now?

[jrm72]

Forgot my -

❤️🖖

🤣

[Zendog2]

James,

I have looked in the 6 gates
Never heard of them, tell me more.

i understand that the 5 sense gates are our only way of knowing reality. The ego or mind was described to me as the 6th sense gate which i had a hard time understanding at first. I seems a little clearer now (maybe). i think it means that we just notice thoughts in the same way we just notice sensory input.

It seems like once an intention is set
Who or what sets the intention?

It seems like the intention is set by the ego or thought.

Why do you think chameleons change color?

The search engine returns that they change color in response to environmental conditions. That seems to indicate that it is a response to sensory input with no intent or control?

What's different now?

Blank .... are all actions responses to environmental conditions? No intentions are set ever?

[jrm72]

Afternoon Scott,

i think it means that we just notice thoughts in the same way we just notice sensory input.

Yes, seeing happen, you don't make it happen.
So
eyes see
ears hear
noses smell
tongues taste
the body feels touch
the brain has thoughts.

All of this is just happening

As another aside, how many senses do you have?
(Your favourite search engine will help again)

It seems like the intention is set by the ego or thought.

So is the ego in control, where is this ego and how does it set intention?
And/or where does the thought come from?
Have a look for it's origin and let me know what you find.

are all actions responses to environmental conditions? No intentions are set ever?

You need to look for these answers yourself - I'm happy to tell you, but first a quote may help -


“If I told you the punch line without first telling you the joke would you laugh?

So, if I told you the conclusion without presenting any of the evidence would you believe me?”


❤️🖖

[Zendog2]

Hi James!

As another aside, how many senses do you have?
(Your favorite search engine will help again)

Vestibular sense: Helps with balance and movement
Equilibrioception: Helps with balance
Chronoception: Helps us sense the passage of time
Osmotic pressure: Helps us sense our hydration level
Bowel and bladder control: Helps us sense when our bladder needs to be emptied
and see, hear, feel, taste and smell
So at least 10! I have always thought of those internal sensations as in the feel category.

So is the ego in control, where is this ego and how does it set intention?
And/or where does the thought come from?
Have a look for it's origin and let me know what you find.

The ego seems to be a concept describing an imaginary complex of thoughts, reflecting each other and the senses.
When I am identified with a thought or thoughts it seems like the ego is in control. But when I am present enough to see the thoughts I can see that they are just that. so if the ego is only thought i cant locate it. When i look for the location of thoughts i cant tell where they are or what they are made of. There is a sense that they are near my head but it feels like that is just a body map overlay. If thoughts are reflections of other thoughts and sense perceptions the ego cant be in control. How could it set an intention or control since it contains nothing original?
I cant find where thoughts come from. They just arise.

are all actions responses to environmental conditions? No intentions are set ever?

You need to look for these answers yourself - I'm happy to tell you, but first a quote may help -
“If I told you the punch line without first telling you the joke would you laugh?

So, if I told you the conclusion without presenting any of the evidence would you believe me?”

NO. i would most likely question your response and doubt its truth.
To me it seems like there cant be intention. no thing is at the wheel. Every reality just arises? This has a disorienting affect. i am so used to living through thought i cant imagine the absence of thought. How can we talk about no thought using words?
My head is spinning.

Sleep well James

[jrm72]

Morning Scott,

The ego seems to be a concept

Yes, it's concepts/thoughts all the way down.

Concepts are made up of thoughts.

Write down your next 10 thoughts -

Did you see where any came from, did you have any idea what they would be?


What does the concept of "self" represent for you?




❤️🖖