Who am I?

[forestLake]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I can see that there is nobody at the core of this person who makes decisions. It seems to me that I'm actually some presence that is experiencing all of this. The sense of self seems to consist of individual sensations in my head, beliefs that seem to point at my body, and various other concepts and sensations.

What are you looking for at LU?
I have gotten glimpses, however I have quite a few doubts about my experience. What have I actually realized? And what am I just understanding conceptually or repeating from something I've heard? I would love to interact with someone who has walked the path before, so that more falsehoods may drop away.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would love to enter a guided conversation from a place of not knowing. I'd appreciate probing questions, experiments or pointers, and reflections. I would like us to start from a "blank slate" so to speak.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have done meditation, direct inquiry and psychedelics. At the moment my practice consists of one retreat per year, combined with informal practice throughout the day.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Elad]

Hi ForestLake

Happy to do this inquiry with you.

Please read the following documents from LU carefully and let me know or ask questions or doubts regarding them:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

[Elad]

Ups typo. Let me know if you have any questions or doubts regarding the LU documents.

[forestLake]

Hi Elad,

thanks so much for taking the time to do this. The documents are clear!

Best Regards

[Elad]

Great! What may I call you?

Let's start. Please write more about what have all ready been seen or glimpsed in your experience, and what the doubts are regarding it.

[forestLake]

Hi Elad,

you can call me Lucas.

Here's a summary of my previous glimpses.

Experience 1: Unlocking my own mind, but still a self

In late 2022, at my first Ayahuasca retreat, in my visions I was surfing through my own mind - represented as symbols and information highways. It was fairly abstract and I was "surfing" between various regions. Suddenly I reached what seemed to be the "topmost layer", represented as a single dot. As I reached it, everything stopped for a split-second.

What followed was a feeling of great expanse, as if I had somehow "unlocked" my mind. Everything lit up, and a feeling of clarity envolved me unlike anything I ever experienced. In the minutes afterwards, most major psychological puzzles and traumas of my life were resolved. The next hours I felt giggly, like I had discovered some major secret, and I tried my best to protect that flame that had been kindled.

The word "enlightenment" popped into my mind during the experience, but this is probably not the right term.

I think it cannot have been Kensho because there was no insight into no-self. Instead, it seemed like I had unlocked the deepest layer of my own mind. It was a feeling of personal empowerment. Of course, the ego ran with it over the next days.

Experience 2: Something is different about my visual field
In October 2023, I was waiting at a train station. As I looked at the tracks, it suddenly occured to me that my experience was different. "I" was no longer looking at the tracks. Rather, there was just this visual field and it seemed somewhat flat.

It was no big deal to me. It must have developed gradually over the months preceeding that.

Experience 3: Rebirth, I am being carried by something
In November 2023, at my second Ayahuasca retreat (consisting of 3 ceremonies), I noticed one day that my interactions with people were more stiffled than I would like them to.

That night with the medicine I experienced death and rebirth. That was earth-shattering in many ways. The next day it felt like all my actions were way more impersonal, with "me" no longer being implicated so much. My social interactions were much more smooth. Through that I got a more intimate understanding of the illusory nature of free will.


Experience 4: Dropping everything
At the same retreat, one night later, I had another experience of rebirth. After the rebirth, I went on a short walk in front of the temple. Step by step as I walked, I found myself letting go of every label, every aspect of myself, every thought. What remained was mostly empty consciousness. But there were no "fireworks" associated with that moment, or great "insights" unlocking. It felt somewhat normal and ordinary.


Present State and Doubts

As I'm going through life, the sense of no-agency and no-self is fairly obvious. But it also seems incomplete. My intuition says that some of it is genuine insight, while other parts are imagined.

Overall, it seems a bit ordinary and I wonder if that means it isn't fully realized.

Thanks,
Lucas

[Elad]

Hi Lucas, thank you for the rich sharing.

It sounds to me like there might be a pretty clear seeing through the self as doer/controller/chooser/separate agent. Anything indicating otherwise, except second hand beliefs about how it should feel?

It also sounds like the process all ready continues significantly beyond that? Do you know the framework of "fetters"? LU is mainly about seeing through 1-3, sounds like your process is in ways moving in the higher fetters all ready. It's not linear though we can have leading ege process in higher fetters while lover fetters still function most of the time.

Please watch the video below, then write me back how the thinking/feeling evolves...

https://youtu.be/ddzh_of35uw?si=SyjYtmi9arvQdLh9

[Elad]

Also answer these questions'

When you say "I" what does it refer to?

Do you control thought?

Do you control movement?

Do you control attention?

Do you control perceptions and feelings?

Answer from looking and direct experience, fresh. Not from conviction.

[forestLake]

Thank you for the prompting. What I received from you, and from the video, were the following questions:

1. Which of my doubts are just thoughts?
2. What is the actual perception in the moment?
3. Which expectations do thoughts create?

I am vaguely aware of the fetters model, however I have not studied it in detail. Will do that.

The no-self perspective is fairly clear in my seeing, feeling, hearing and acting.

On the level of story and history, things are different: "Lucas as a person" is still as real as ever. I do not have the sense that my history, and all those experiences I have in my memory were "unreal".

When you say "I" what does it refer to?

With "I", it feels like I talk about the history of this person here. Although the person himself is not the one who has the awareness or who receives the sensory inputs. The sensory inputs seem to be received by some consciousness which is distinct from "the person". What that is, I do not know yet. Sometimes I imagine it as a singular point with no specific location in space.

Do you control thought?
Sometimes when I'm lost in thought it feels like I do. Whenever that happens, I trace it back and then it becomes obvious that I do not control thoughts.

Do you control movement?
No, it feels more and more like I'm at a distance and watching the movement play out. Almost as if "I" sit a few meters behind my head and observe.

Do you control attention?
Currently it seems like attention wanders and, if I observe it, I would be like "oh interesting, so we are going here now". A curious detachment from the flow of attention.

Do you control perceptions and feelings?
No.

[Elad]

Lovely work Lucas. Here is some more to look at:


"On the level of story and history, things are different: "Lucas as a person" is still as real as ever. I do not have the sense that my history, and all those experiences I have in my memory were "unreal"."

Why should it? Why would you want the mechanism of sense of self to be different then it is? No functional person cannot differentiate between (so called) real memories and fantasy etc. From the way it looks here, the liberation is in seeing that none of it is substantial or permanent or can be held on to. Which is seen only in the moment. Does that make sense?



"With "I", it feels like I talk about the history of this person here."

Right so we will use the word for the conventional person, otherwise we end in a madhouse :)



"Although the person himself is not the one who has the awareness or who receives the sensory inputs. The sensory inputs seem to be received by some consciousness which is distinct from "the person"."


Can you find consciousness as something separate from experience?


"What that is, I do not know yet."

Right on!!

"Sometimes I imagine it as a singular point with no specific location in space."

I think imagine is they key word here ;)

"Sometimes when I'm lost in thought it feels like I do. Whenever that happens, I trace it back and then it becomes obvious that I do not control thoughts."

Great

"No, it feels more and more like I'm at a distance and watching the movement play out. Almost as if "I" sit a few meters behind my head and observe."

Right and the key point is not what it feels like. Weather it feels like control or not, both are just experiences. What we attend to here is what is directly seen when attended to. In everyday life normal feeling of control is no problem (I can control the movement of my hand but not the heartbeat. Ultimatelty neither is in control of a separate I, but conventionally this experience and differentiation works).

"Currently it seems like attention wanders and, if I observe it, I would be like "oh interesting, so we are going here now". A curious detachment from the flow of attention."

Look closer here, in direct experience can you control attention?

"Do you control perceptions and feelings?
No."

Seems to me you are very close to clarity of fetter 1-3.

[forestLake]

Can you find consciousness as something separate from experience?

Not sure. I can perceive "consciousness", and I've heard it has the ability to reflect itself without thought - but there has been no realization of that yet.

"Sometimes I imagine it as a singular point with no specific location in space."

I think imagine is they key word here ;)

Thanks for the reminder. Have to keep in mind that every image I might have about it is not the real thing.

Right and the key point is not what it feels like. Weather it feels like control or not, both are just experiences.

I understand, so what we're attending to here is really deeper than an experience.

Look closer here, in direct experience can you control attention?

Seems like there is no free will controlling the flow of attention. Flow of attention might be preceeded by the impression of an impulse, or of a desire to put it somewhere - but that desire is likewise just arising, right? So in that manner, one can see that there is nobody there who makes the decision about where to put attention on.

Lucas

[Elad]

"Not sure. I can perceive "consciousness", and I've heard it has the ability to reflect itself without thought - but there has been no realization of that yet."

For the purposes of this investigation it would be important you let go of second hand beliefs/convictions and stay with exploring direct experience.

Are you willing to do that as long as we work together?

Assuming yes, look again, can consciousness in any way be found separate from direct experience?




"Thanks for the reminder. Have to keep in mind that every image I might have about it is not the real thing."

Right.



"I understand, so what we're attending to here is really deeper than an experience."

I would not encourage you to assume anything like that. I would only encourage you to keep looking at experience and a tall questions I ask until doubt is gone.

"Seems like there is no free will controlling the flow of attention. Flow of attention might be preceeded by the impression of an impulse, or of a desire to put it somewhere - but that desire is likewise just arising, right? So in that manner, one can see that there is nobody there who makes the decision about where to put attention on."

Right.

Tell me what reactions come up to this sentence:

*There is no separate self, doer, controller whatsoever and there never were any such thing*

Just write all the reactions that come up without censoring/controlling/trying to get it right. Just free flow write all the reactions that come up for like 3-5 minutes (or more if you wish).

[forestLake]

Thanks for those pointers.

For the purposes of this investigation it would be important you let go of second hand beliefs/convictions and stay with exploring direct experience.

Are you willing to do that as long as we work together?

Assuming yes, look again, can consciousness in any way be found separate from direct experience?

Sure, I'll focus on direct experience only. Looking again, I have to say that no - I cannot seem to find consciousness apart from experience. When I try to find it, I get some images, and memories of past experiences where I felt like I found something, but no direct experience.

*There is no separate self, doer, controller whatsoever and there never were any such thing*

Reactions that come up:

A sense of me getting larger. A sense of relaxation and simplicity. Curiosity about what will happen next in this moment. Ease and delight. It seems like a very simple and straightforward statement, there is no resistance to it. I also don't notice much surprise when reflecting on it.

Sat with the statement for a while and nothing more came up. Considering that there is no separate self or doer feels natural and ordinary.


Best Regards,
Lucas

[Elad]

Great Lucas!

How do you react to these statements:

1) You are not responsible for anything.

2) Nothing better then this will ever come to you.

3) Your family also have no separate self and never had it.

For each one just share with no censoring or efforting. What is seen is more important than "getting anything right".

[forestLake]

1) You are not responsible for anything.
Feels pleasant, clear, open. Things seem to happen on their own. Therefore, Not sure how responsibility in the usual sense of the word makes sense given that.
I also notice confusion around the "who". Who is the one that could even be responsible for what happens?


2) Nothing better then this will ever come to you.
When I first read this, a bit disappointed. Then, surprise. Never considered this particular perspective. When I sit with it, it feels bright, as if a light goes on. The words came into my mind "it's already here". Waiting for anything else seems like a thought game.


3) Your family also have no separate self and never had it.
Seems like my family just happens. Just like I "just happen". So I agree with that.
At the same time, it's a little bit surprising. That nobody else has this inner self that "makes decisions" either. There's some surprise there.