I'm ready

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Kris
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I'm ready

Postby Kris » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:18 pm

..... for a long time

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: I'm ready

Postby Garsius Tyla » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:51 pm

Hello Kris. Let's make it.

Tell me about yourself, about seeking and so on. Where you are at moment?

What expectations brought you here?

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Kris
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Re: I'm ready

Postby Kris » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:54 am

Garsius
I've read "Three Pillars of Zen" and "Zen Mind Beginner Mind" when I was still a teenager and questions of who am I? and why am I here? have not left me since then(15 or so years). However the last few years, watching videos of people like Adyashanti and Tony Parsons, that message resonated with me so much more intensely then before that I don't think a day goes by when I'm not trying to figure out the truth of who I am.
On an intellectual level the message of ego being simply a mental construct and even the fact that we call it our self "image" seems so obvious. Yet..... I certainly don't feel a shift in my daily viewpoint and definitely feel like the ego is the only thing in the driver seat right now.
I do feel I have an ulterior motive with this, in general I am a person who worries a lot, and is often anxious and fearful. During more difficult times I can go through weeks full of anxiety and fear in anticipation of some future stressful event. Somehow I realize that all of that is just in my head, not real, just thoughts.... yet in a very real way they are running my life and have prevented me from doing so many more things in it. It's at a point where I feel sick and tired of myself! ... I guess my motive is to not just realize that these thoughts are not real but actually live a life that encompasses everything around not just view the whole existence from this tiny perspective of the ego. I just refuse to believe that this small perspective which sometimes can boil down to just anxiety and stress is all there is to life. It seems clear to me I am missing something!
wow.... a lot of rambling...sorry I'll stop now :)

Thanks for reading and trying to help!

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: I'm ready

Postby Garsius Tyla » Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:51 am

Kris.

There is some rules for you to make our interaction successful:
1. Be 100% honest with yourself. Just BRUTALLY honest when looking. Don't believe me - ALWAYS check for yourself.
2. Look and investigate every question and statement, don't miss any.
3. Check and look that for one day. You write here once per day.
4. Try not to use ideas, concepts in your answers. Just DIRECT experience.
5. Stay till the SUCCESS. Don't let any feeling to push your attention away.

Lets go then.

This liberation is not from thoughts, anxiety, feelings and all this stuff in your field of attention. This liberation is only FROM BELIEF, that YOU exist as a separate entity. And that is all.

Of course after realisation, that there is no YOU, all that annoying stuff gonna crash. But not at once. Just be clear about that. Wrong expectations can became an obstacle itself.

Okey, lets define what is real and what is not.

All can be perceived is real.

You can perceive thoughts.

Thoughts are real.

You can perceive body.

Body is real.

You can perceive table.

Table is real.

You can perceive your attention, or awareness.

Those are real too.

Lets look what is not real.

You is not real. YOU don't exist. Right?

If you cannot realise this clearly, look for yourself. Look for an entity you can call self.
What is it there?

Investigate. Don't rush. You have whole day.

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Kris
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Re: I'm ready

Postby Kris » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:04 am

"This liberation is not from thoughts, anxiety, feelings and all this stuff in your field of attention. This liberation is only FROM BELIEF, that YOU exist as a separate entity. And that is all."

I guess I've always considered thoughts to be part of the ego and thus not real or substantial. It seems the thoughts are real but the content could be greatly exaggerated and not true to reality.
After reading your questions I sort of came all of a sudden to a dead end. I thought about the belief in a personal self and how to see that it doesn't exist, when it sort of hit me: if there is no me who is gonna figure out that there is no me? does that make sense? It actually felt very peaceful but after that I didn't know what to look for anymore. The me is still definitely there, but now questioning where it is doesn't make sense anymore.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: I'm ready

Postby Garsius Tyla » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:40 am

Very careful investigate all bold questions. That is crucial here
I guess I've always considered thoughts to be part of the ego and thus not real or substantial
Let's not use any guessing here. Only pure attention, pure looking, honest investigation - no pre-ideas, no pre-concepts.
Is it ego anything else than random thoughts with label "I", "me", "mine"? Look.
After reading your questions I sort of came all of a sudden to a dead end. I thought about the belief in a personal self and how to see that it doesn't exist, when it sort of hit me: if there is no me who is gonna figure out that there is no me? does that make sense? It actually felt very peaceful but after that I didn't know what to look for anymore. The me is still definitely there, but now questioning where it is doesn't make sense anymore.
Yes, you had a glimpse of it now, but still not realised.

Lets come to this carefully.

Every thought is not you. Is thinker is needed for thought to arise?

Every belief is not you. Is believer needed for belief to be?

Every thinking is not you. Is thinker needed for thinking to take place?

Every question is not you. Is questioner needed for question to arise?

Every LOOKING is not you. Check that - if actual looker is needed for LOOKING to arise?

All that is arising from place where YOU SHOULD BE. Look at that for some time? Can you find any entity, any doer there?
if there is no me who is gonna figure out that there is no me?
Veeery productive, so to speak, question. Investigate, how attention/looking/awareness is formed. Turn it to itself. What/who is there? And still that function exist, right?
The me is still definitely there
If it is actual entity, show me, describe me it. If it is belief ( that is why here is word "definitely" ) look at it as belief. What else is there? Any BELIEVER, any SOURCE of that believe?

Again -dont operate ideas, thoughts. Just LOOK.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: I'm ready

Postby Garsius Tyla » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:07 am

When you read questions take a whole day for looking, not answer at once, don't use ideas that come, just direct experience - as a result of your looking.

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Kris
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Re: I'm ready

Postby Kris » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:15 am

"Every thought is not you. Is thinker is needed for thought to arise?
Every belief is not you. Is believer needed for belief to be?
Every thinking is not you. Is thinker needed for thinking to take place?
Every question is not you. Is questioner needed for question to arise?
Every LOOKING is not you. Check that - if actual looker is needed for LOOKING to arise?"

Look at that for some time? Can you find any entity, any doer there?

No....but at the same time with the word "entity" I can say the same thing about mind, conciousness, and especially thoughts. I can only desribe their content but not the entity. I don't know how big a thought is or what color etc...

Still I can't find anything seperate which is "me". It's just a feeling, whatever experience arises I attribute it to "me". I know it's unique to just this one person, and hence it's unique it seems "seperate" from everyone elses experience. But it is just that, a set of experiences and thoughts. There are million things happening in my body clearly without any help from the "me", and since I can't stop or control my thoughts either I can definitely say that thoughts, beliefs, questions can arise without the Thinker and they do...... and yet I look around the room and think this is "my" dog, "my" house, etc... and tomorrow I will get up and think why do "I" have to go to work.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: I'm ready

Postby Garsius Tyla » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:40 am

No....but at the same time with the word "entity" I can say the same thing about mind, conciousness, and especially thoughts. I can only desribe their content but not the entity. I don't know how big a thought is or what color etc...
Of course mind is not there as entity. Mind is only random thought arising process. No entity. Mind is not real. Check for yourself. Can you find "mind"?

Consciousness - of course there is entity ( let's keep that word, ok?) Because you can be aware of it, right? Consciousness is real. In a daytime there is consciousness, in a deep sleep there is not.

Thought is real, it is entity. While you can not define his colour, you definitely can see it as a shape sometimes, as some bodyless form, right? Observe your thoughts to be sure.

Your self is the same as your mind. Only concept you believe. Only label that cling to thought. Nothing more. If it is real you can be aware of it, right? Check it.
Still I can't find anything seperate which is "me". It's just a feeling, whatever experience arises I attribute it to "me"
Yes. Feeling IS. Let it be. Look at it. What is behind that feeling? Can you find anything behind, or it is just a feeling?
and yet I look around the room and think this is "my" dog, "my" house, etc... and tomorrow I will get up and think why do "I" have to go to work.
Very good. So what this "I", "me", "my" IS for real? Only a thought, or anything real?

Nothing bad is to have thoughts with that "I". Who cares? Thought is a thought, nothing more. If there is no belief that this "I" is real, what harm from thoughts you can get?

Any more doubts? Or you can already see what that "I" is for REAL? Look again and again till you sure. Look at every thought, that arise about subject not as a CONTENT, but as a FORM.

Answer when ready, you are on edge. Need to "jump" now.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: I'm ready

Postby Garsius Tyla » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:21 am

What's up Kris?
Don't run away.

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Kris
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Re: I'm ready

Postby Kris » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:59 pm

Still here .... nothing has really changed. The understanding is only conceptual. There are moments where it seems extremely obvious and peaceful, and immediately thoughts begin popping up to almost sabotage it. When I get to that point of "ah I got it", immediately I think....if there is no I who just got "it". Feel like I'm chasing my own tail. I just don't see how "I" can make this shift in perception happen.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: I'm ready

Postby Garsius Tyla » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:27 pm

Welcome back Kris.
When I get to that point of "ah I got it", immediately I think....if there is no I who just got "it"
"ah I got it" - is a thought, right? Who is that "I" here? When I look for my thoughts with this "I", I see only label "I" which refer to nothing real. Look if it is a case with you too?
I just don't see how "I" can make this shift in perception happen.
That is because you are trying to "think it down". You need to "look it down" with simple seeing that fact that there is no real "I" behind.

When I say "university", I know, that university is not real, it is only bunch of things: place, people, building.. etc. with label "university" on it. Look if it is same with that "I"? What else this "I" is if not a product of thought, language?
What is that "I" stand for if there is no thought?

Investigate hard. You are near. Keep posting.

And one more thing - drop your expectations about liberation. That could be very subtle shift with understanding, that there is no real you, that all happening by itself. It is the end of seeking. Emotional and physical pain can happen after, but no suffering with seeing that pain is not within you. It is just pain in the air. Come, stay and dissolve.

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Kris
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Re: I'm ready

Postby Kris » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:50 pm

And one more thing - drop your expectations about liberation
yes, I think this might be the problem. I look at your questions and examine. I see that I can look but no looker is required, and I see that I can type but it just happens but then I immediately wait for "something" to happen. Some big moment of ah ha, when all my problems dissolve, and I can just go on in a state of constant bliss (which I know is ridiculous). What I'm trying to say is that all my questioning and looking is immediately followed by "is this it? is this the great void? is this enlightenment? etc etc..."

I really liked the metaphor about the university.... and it seems TRUE! yes there are thoughts, yest there is a body, memories all these things can stand on it's own, but the "me" I can't locate as a separate entity. The closes thing I would describe it as is just a feeling.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: I'm ready

Postby Garsius Tyla » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:19 am

If you can, go to the nature, observe what drives all around - clouds, trees, people.
Time to be sure.

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Kris
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Re: I'm ready

Postby Kris » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:25 am

If you can, go to the nature, observe what drives all around - clouds, trees, people.
Time to be sure.
That's a tough question, not sure what you mean by "drive"? Asking what "drives" people? has a different meaning to me then what drives clouds?. But there is nothing I see which drives existence, everything is interdependent. The tree can't survive without the sun, the insects without the tree, etc etc...


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