Before I run out of time....

[KateB]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
What I think of ‘me’ is a (very stable) story that has permitted me to grow up in a world of other people who have the same core assumption and who pass it on as they teach their children - as I have done.
I have to admit, this ‘self’ is difficult to ‘find’ in my body, my thoughts etc, but the felt sense of a unit that I can call ‘me’ hangs on.

What are you looking for at LU?
An “Ah ha moment” ….. A “clunk, click …. Gosh…” insight. A different way of addressing the self, other than as an unchecked assumption or as an intellectual game (with a scoring system!) Perhaps the sort of feeling you get when you get to the bottom of a page of hard algebra and it turns out that the problem was really simple after all (sorry, a maths analogy)

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Advice from beyond the gate, from someone with the novel perspective of having no-inherent-self. Who may have a sense of another way of toppling my assumptions, other than just saying they are wrong, or offering loads of intellectual arguments about the nature of existence.
Actually I don't really have a strong preconception about the nature of a guided conversation (I have, of course looked at some LU videos) but I do have hope. Below you can see that I have been 'shopping around', but LU seems to have a completely different approach. Somehow pure.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Well … I’m 73 and first picked up a Buddhist book in my teenage years (not understanding anything). I’ve been a not-very-good and not-very-wholehearted Buddhist since then. It has been the notion of ‘emptiness’ that has always been seductive to me, but not the ritual aspects, or any real sense of being a ‘spiritual person’. Yes, I meditate but....
I currently have a teacher who situates herself in a Buddhist tradition that honours ‘pointing out instructions,’ but in practice these are offered only after tight contact between guru and student over many years – and I have never ‘qualified’. They look for ‘faith in the guru’ which perhaps I don’t have, and actually I don’t like the feeling that I have to behave in a certain sort of way towards a teacher. All that said, her teaching is does absolutely address the ‘no self’ (she says not ‘not self’) as a fundamental issue.
Getting a bit desperate, I have been going to a psychotherapist for about 6 months. I have quite enjoyed talking about myself for an hour per week… and have learned that real honesty in talking to another person is quite a tall order for me. But mainly I have realised: firstly that I had been to an extraordinary extent the product of my conditioning and secondly that the challenge isn’t to make ‘myself’ better.
Hence the resolve to attend again to what the ‘self’ even is/isn’t.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

[Elad]

Hello, my name is Elad and I would be happy to do this exploration with you, if we see that it makes sense. Please read and respond to the following points.

1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know or ask questions if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit, I work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.

5. This process is not about uncovering or resolving/getting help with shadow material. It is also not an open-ended place to discus different perspectives on life and look for answers to big questions. That might happen indirectly, but the process is focused only on recognizing that there is no separate self in control of things. Knowing that, are you still motivated for this process?

Warmly,
Elad

[KateB]

Dear Elad

You have a deal.
MANY thanks. Ready to go.

Kate

[Elad]

Dear Elad

You have a deal.
MANY thanks. Ready to go.

Kate

Kate, sounds great let's start! Looking only at direct experience here and now - which is the only thing we will focus on here, as opposed to believes, theories, memories, other thoughts - is there a separate self/Kate anywhere to be found? If there is, where/what is it?

[KateB]

is there a separate self/Kate anywhere to be found? If there is, where/what is it?

‘Separate’ is one question… ‘self’ another…

There IS some sort of awareness, some sort of sense of ‘being’ (also of ‘a being’ but that ‘being’ may just be the biological lump!

The awareness is very tuned to ‘Kate’. It is sensitive to incoming Kate-directed messages “Kate, do you want some coffee” and also triggered, especially by goings on in the biological body… sensations, jitters…

There seems to be a sort of dashboard, processing stuff but amplifying ‘objects of interest’ to the notional Kate. The biological lump of Kate benefits from this … as in ‘car coming’.

SO I think there is AWARENESS, it receives MUCH more that it passes up the focus of awareness, it seems like a transducer tuned to 'Kate.'

Apart from preserving Kate’s biological body, I don’t get ‘who’ the dashboard is reporting to.. I’m unclear if there is even a self to ‘read the dials’?

But just because I can’t be sure of a self ‘IN’ my direct experience, I don’t seem prepared to say it isn’t there… (I don’t have the wall behind me in my direct experience, it's there when I check.)


‘Separate’ seems a different challenge. Can there possibly be any ‘I’ in the complete absence of and input = sensations etc…. I’m not sure, but I have the sense that there may be… Gosh, what would that even be??

Perhaps I need to clarify what is and isn’t ‘direct experience’. …. In what sense is there anything outside direct experience?

Oh dear, not feeling on solid ground here! Overthinking, probably..

[Elad]

Thanks Kate! It's good you wanna make sure things are clear to you! Here is a contemplation and an exercise relating to direct experience. Let's continue with them.


Coloured Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:
• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

[Elad]

A little more in reply to your first message:

This investigation will not prove scientifically and philosophically that there is no self. I could send good material on that level (from scientific studies of volition and stuff like that) but there will never be a final proof on that level. How do we prove unicorns and Santa Claus don't exist? We can't.

So the level we work towards here is NOT intellectual certainty. Rather our work is about looking deeply into what seems to be you in direct experience here and now and if it is a separate autonomous self or not. For many people looking with great sincerity into that exposes how the sense of self and autonomy is created moment to moment by itself, and that creates the shift some call awakening or crossing the gateless gate.

In any case, most important is the contemplation and the exercise.

[KateB]

Rather our work is about looking deeply into what seems to be you in direct experience here and now and if it is a separate autonomous self or not. For many people looking with great sincerity into that exposes how the sense of self and autonomy is created moment to moment by itself, and that creates the shift some call awakening or crossing the gateless gate.

Thanks for this. It is an incentive to try hard to go with the instructions (not checking against what I already think I know…)

Coloured Socks

Agree. .... Though I already 'believed' the world was round, I remember the extra gasp when the early satellite photos were published showing that it really was. (Im old..)

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

Staring into space: (Easter, near the sea)
Seeing – blobs of colour, lines, whizzing things
Sound – rumbling, blowing.
Sensation – localised pressure, feeling under ribs …. porridge for breakfast..
Thoughts – including ‘what’s that?’ come and go.

Sweeping up
Seeing – swishing thing
Sensation –body sensations of swishing – shifts of weight, movements of arms..
Sound - of brushing
Thoughts – about task – ‘that will do..’

Driving home
Seeing – lines, blobs of colour, ‘movement’ of landscape, and of traffic
Sensation – bumps, pressures on body, movements associated with driving.
Sound – engine, tinnitus…
Thoughts – some ‘internal comments’. – including one about ‘self’ when another car flashed lights.

Interesting - though reflecting on it goes very quickly to language and much more labelling.

[Elad]

Sounds good Kate! Here is another exercise to continue the looking. Exactly as you said, even if you have worked with this before (probably) and think you know, look and answer freshly. Please answer all questions, always.


Observing thoughts


Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

[KateB]

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Dear Elad

Just to say I have sat... and want to sit again later in the day before 'reporting back'
SO ....interesting/alarming/exciting... thanks. K

[Elad]

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Dear Elad

Just to say I have sat... and want to sit again later in the day before 'reporting back'
SO ....interesting/alarming/exciting... thanks. K

Thank you for letting me know 🤍

Take all the time you wish, look forward to hear when ready.

[KateB]

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Elad, I’ve had a go but this feels quite ‘preliminary’:

Where are they coming from and going to?

Don’t know. They do just appear, though often discernibly in relation to some sort of sensation … A thought labels or ‘grabs’ the sensation in some way. On the other hand, sometimes thoughts just appear in a sort of ‘field of awareness’, much like sounds, images do.

Where do they go to?

Most thoughts sort-of ‘lose their identity’ .. just fizzle out, but some seem to return to a sort of ‘churn’ which feels like a mess of potential thoughts and pop up again soon, or take much longer to disappear - a chain of thoughts.
I can’t say ‘where’ this ‘churn is…. With no evidence in my direct experience, nevertheless I seem to ‘locate’ it somewhere in my chest.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Actually no … When I deliberately tried to ‘think of something nice’, nothing much happened…perhaps because ‘I’ was watching so closely?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

NO, I’d say definitely not.

Can you predict your next thought?

Again no …. Perhaps in a very disciplined chain … reciting a poem?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

I don’t think so.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Not sure.. If I’m very concentrated, there often seems to be a moment before a thought is ‘fully formed’ when I can ‘zap’ it. Not sure that its annihilated though! Goes back to ‘the churn’??

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

NO really don’t think so!

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Perhaps it’s possible to stop a thought flourishing.

Elad, can I have another go at this tomorrow, though I doubt that I will be able to be much more confident.

[Elad]

Kate, this is a good start! We need to get even closer seperating direct experience from thoughts and images.

One hint: speaking conventionally a brain/mind can be more trained in concentration and thought control or not. However, as we look at it in direct experience: what decided what led to that training/genetics/socialization etc that created this capacity? We will go more into that, but for now at least lets aknowledge that its questionable that any of it is controlled truly by a self, as opposed to be patterns of conditioning.

Yes, look again, and only stay REALLY close with the direct experience. Can I at all controll which thought appears and disapears? Even if there is a pattern, say 1,2,3,4 and.... what number? So probably we both know what number appeared, but was that the choice of a separate self or just conditioning without choice or self?

[KateB]

Back again!

One hint: speaking conventionally a brain/mind can be more trained in concentration and thought control or not. However, as we look at it in direct experience: what decided what led to that training/genetics/socialization etc that created this capacity? We will go more into that, but for now at least lets aknowledge that its questionable that any of it is controlled truly by a self, as opposed to be patterns of conditioning.

Thanks. I had another 'go' just now and can 'see' that a thought is much more like an 'image' than like an 'unprocessed' blob of colour arriving in 'direct experience'.

I found that I could not, in practice, 'conjure up' a thought, though I had the impression I could curtail one, nudging it out to 'nothingness'.
Nor can I choose a thought from a fund of potential thoughts - (I reckon that if I tried, some other thought would definitely turn up.)

All that said it seems hard to stay with 'direct experience' in practice. It seems that unmediated 'direct experience' is so quickly/?automatically taken over by processing.

Not all thoughts are 'fully formed' when they come into awareness, but do thrive on attention...
Attention/awareness can happen without a thought impinging....
NOt all thoughts are 'coherent', some more a 'flash' than a 'story'.

Im finding this unsettling!

[Elad]

Hi Kate, you are doing well!

Lets be with the unsettling... Feel it, invite it, invite it to tell all it's concerns and feelings... Share what comes up, no need to do anything about it.