Joy of Experiencing

[Primrose9]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there is no real individual self, that who we think we are is just a conglomeration of thoughts, feelings and perceptions that we assume are there through conditioning. We assume we are thinking our thoughts and that we are in control of them. We take the purity out of our experiencing by labeling and conceptualize everything.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for someone to guide me through my conditioned obstacles to seeing through 'self'. I have been "seeking" for 54 years and was a meditation teacher for about 10 years as a young adult but have been actively in the non dual teachings for 7 years. I have been feeling for quite some time that having someone to do this with and talk to about what comes up for me is very important so when I recently heard about LU I was very relieved to know that this someone would be possible to find.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect and hope to have a guide that can be with me deeply seeing areas within me that I may not see so these layers can dissolved allowing the freedom that is already here to more consistently be identified with. Since I have 54 years of sitting in deep silence everyday the field of pure awareness is very lively in my experience and I have had many glimpses Truth, so I feel or hope that I am quite ripe for passing thru the gateway. I just have some fears to look at. I would like to work with a guide that is knowledgeable about the 10 fetters the way Pernille Damore teaches them as I am currently on the 1st fetter in her Awakening Curriculum.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I learned Transcendental Meditation (TM) at the age of 16 and it answered my quest for an answer to the question, "Is there really a God?" that I had I was exploring since I was 14. In my very first meditation from my experience of the deep pool of peace within me I knew that God was right here in me . It changed my life and by the age of 19 I had gone to Spain to be trained to be a TM teacher. I devoted my life to that and stayed within the TM organization either actively teaching or involved in the periphery until I began to seek for more around the age of 40. The "enlightenment" that was promised wasn't happening with just daily meditating and I kind of gave up that it was even possible or felt that maybe this was already it and that was all there was. I went on some various spiritual retreats, also studied Feng Shui and Vaastu for 10 years. It wasn't until 2017, age 62 or 63 that I found non-duality with Mooji and it was the first time any teacher showed me that this pure awareness that I was experiencing everyday of my life was my true Self and I once again had a more realistic hope that self realization was possible. I completely absorbed myself in his satsang's and retreats both online and I did one in person in Portugal. So I was deeply exploring inquiry with his teachings and his beautiful teacher Papaji. Then about two years ago I again felt like I was reaching a plateau and began switching back and forth from Mooji to Rupert Spira. Rupert was giving me more to explore thru my senses. I then went on to find and enjoy listening to so many others: Echart Tolle (who's book The Power of Now I had read years ago), Matt Garrett, Angelo Dillulo (and also read his book), Andrew Hewson (who I did 2 online retreats with this fall 2023), and Ganaji. I did a little in ACIM as well. Then a few weeks ago my sister in law shared Pernille Damore with me and I just love her delightful nature and her practical, very real, step by step approach and appreciate so much that she created a whole curriculum and community for the priority in my life for everyday worldly people like me. My sister in law had also told me about LU and Pernille recommends finding a guide here as well.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Hi

I am glad to walk a bit with you to help you see through the illusion of a separate self.
Reading your introduction, I see that you have gone a long way about this staff.

There are some rules to agree with, before starting our dialog :

Read the disclaimer text here
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books, videos about this investigation.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Best wishes

Warissem

[Primrose9]

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books, videos about this investigation.

Hi Warissem, I am delighted to see your response. I wanted to ask you about this rule. I am currently just completing the second fetter in Pernille Damore's Awakening Curriculum. She recommends coming here for a guide so as to not to feel alone in the process, which I have been feeling for years and so relieved to hear her say that this is challenging to do alone. I also have plans to do her week long online retreat in June with her and her husband Todd Lent. So when I read this rule I am a bit conflicted with what to do now. Do I need to choose one or the other? From my perspective it feels like the same teaching but not sure if that is the case with regards to LU's guidelines.

I will answer the expectations questions in my next post.
Thanks so much!
Rosie

[Primrose9]

How will life change?

I have understood in so many of the teachings and experiences of others that I will know I have seen through self when circumstances in life do not overshadow the inner contentment and silence that will permeate my experience. Life may not change but my inner life and the container of life itself will be in the peace and stillness of Isness/Beingness

How will you change?
At this point I feel that it means that the blissful stillness that I am both in meditation and in my active life when I remember it will be present in in my awareness all the time/no time. I will no longer be distracted by thoughts and feelings and all of life will be this stillness/alive vastness.

What will be different?

I have understood and sometimes have had glimpses that nothing will change but everything will be different.

What is missing?

I'm not sure. When I focus on "this that has no words" it comes into the forefront so beautifully. Do I need to see what is distracting me? Maybe it's a fear. This is what I want to explore. I know since doing the fetters and and talking to some of the people on the zoom calls that it has helped me feel more accepting of whatever my experience is. And that feels so much more relaxed.

[warissem]

Hi Rosie

No worry about the work with Pernille Damore.

I have understood in so many of the teachings and experiences of others that I will know I have seen through self when circumstances in life do not overshadow the inner contentment and silence that will permeate my experience. Life may not change but my inner life and the container of life itself will be in the peace and stillness of Isness/Beingness

it could be.

At this point I feel that it means that the blissful stillness that I am both in meditation and in my active life when I remember it will be present in in my awareness all the time/no time. I will no longer be distracted by thoughts and feelings and all of life will be this stillness/alive vastness.

I invite you to put aside this kind of expectation.

I have understood and sometimes have had glimpses that nothing will change but everything will be different.

Yes.

I'm not sure. When I focus on "this that has no words" it comes into the forefront so beautifully. Do I need to see what is distracting me? Maybe it's a fear. This is what I want to explore. I know since doing the fetters and and talking to some of the people on the zoom calls that it has helped me feel more accepting of whatever my experience is. And that feels so much more relaxed.

Before going ahead, I want to know about the falling of the belief in a separate self : in which circumstances is it happened? What is seen in that moment? How is the doubt expressed : thoughts, bodily sensations?

Are you familiar with looking at direct experience ?

Best for you

[Primrose9]

I want to know about the falling of the belief in a separate self

My mind blanks when I try to come with words for this. Maybe I don't understand what you want to know. In moments when I am dropping into/merging into the wordless vastness the world I'm looking at seems to fade including what I have known to be me. It's usually when I am talking to someone about it or just being with them and we are mirroring vastness. When everything fades what was everything is all in and of this Isness. I like to call it Isness because it just is. I really don't know what word to use when I refer to it, because it's not an it or anything, yet it is everything there is. Writing about "it" now has me just want to stop and marinate in it.
You are asking about the falling of the "belief" in a separate self. In the experience that I am attempting to describe there is no belief present, just presence and expanse. When I look for belief in a separate self it starts to contract or feels like a strain. I notice that I just don't want to experience the separate self because of the contraction.
Just since answering the questions last night I have noticed that it has even been more evident than usual in the active day and interactions with others. There is a contentment and inner calm and acceptance and ease that is more palpable. I feel more relaxed about "awakening", like I've stopped looking for it and It is such a subtle relief.

[Primrose9]

in which circumstances is it happened? What is seen in that moment? How is the doubt expressed : thoughts, bodily sensations?

I have described the circumstances when It happens and what is seen above/or below in my previous answer. Let me know if there is something more you are looking for.
I don't feel the doubt right now so expressing it isn't arising. Previously I had been asking if what I was describing is the no self experience. I may have answered my own question by the feeling I just described of not wanting to go the separate self experience because of the contraction. Right now I am looking for the separate self and I feel like it's off in the distance but only locatable as a distant thought. I will see if the sense of it gets closer again once I get up from here and am not focused on it primarily but right now there is just luminous presence and the body/mind feels very etherial and space like.

Are you familiar with looking at direct experience ?

Do you mean: simply seeing, simply hearing, simply smelling, simply thinking, etc?

[warissem]

Hi Rosie

When I look for belief in a separate self it starts to contract or feels like a strain. I notice that I just don't want to experience the separate self because of the contraction.

There is no separate self in the first place, there never was, it will never be.
Now, focus on the contraction when it comes, don't go to thoughts about it. See what this contraction is, explore it, welcome it, let it be in the light. Just stay neutral. It comes it goes.

Just since answering the questions last night I have noticed that it has even been more evident than usual in the active day and interactions with others. There is a contentment and inner calm and acceptance and ease that is more palpable. I feel more relaxed about "awakening", like I've stopped looking for it and It is such a subtle relief.

Great, what is seen cannot be unseen. There is no more to it. Is there a "me" looking for more? See that there is no you to feel relaxed, there is only relaxation happening.

I have described the circumstances when It happens and what is seen above/or below in my previous answer. Let me know if there is something more you are looking for.

That's OK.

I don't feel the doubt right now so expressing it isn't arising. Previously I had been asking if what I was describing is the no self experience. I may have answered my own question by the feeling I just described of not wanting to go the separate self experience because of the contraction. Right now I am looking for the separate self and I feel like it's off in the distance but only locatable as a distant thought. I will see if the sense of it gets closer again once I get up from here and am not focused on it primarily but right now there is just luminous presence and the body/mind feels very etherial and space like.

Just be this luminous presence and see the separate self as what it is, a bunch of thoughts. The key is that there is no lasting belief in a separate self.

Are you familiar with looking at direct experience ?

Do you mean: simply seeing, simply hearing, simply smelling, simply thinking, etc?

Yes.

Let me know about any lasting doubt about a separate self managing and controlling things.
Are you a thinker ?
Are they your thoughts?
Are you choosing what to say or what to do?
Are you a decision maker ?

Let me know which questions you need to explore here.

Best for you

PS : learn how to use the quote function

[Primrose9]

Hi Warissem,
I was my 70 birthday today and I had a full magical day with my loving family and there is more early tomorrow morning so I need to go to bed right now. I will not have time to respond till tomorrow.

Looking forward to more exploring and welcoming then.

I thought I was doing the quotes properly so I will watch the video again to see what I missed.

With love,
Rosie

[warissem]

Hi Rosie

I wish you a happy birthday, health and wealth.

Waiting for your insights.

[Primrose9]

Let me know about any lasting doubt about a separate self managing and controlling things.

Thank you for your sweet birthday wishes. I'm feeling very tired right now after another full day; my children and husband and I spent the day at a spa for more birthday honoring. Being celebrated with such love and acknowledgment from my family and friends was so nurturing. I was so filled up with love and at times I felt like I was only love. I was noticing how interesting it was that they were celebrating my separate self that was both there and not there. I was also noticing when I was managing and controlling things, like looking at little expectations and small disappointments that I normally might have held onto longer but allowed the ego grasping to just let go, seeing it was just a bunch of thoughts.

Are you a thinker ?

Challenging question to answer. I would say yes yet I do notice that often my thinking is like a run away train just going on and on in a chain until I finally notice and am amazed how long it was going on without me being aware of it. This happens when I wake up in the morning while I am lying in bed allowing myself to fully wake up and sometimes during the day. I guess this is more like day dreaming. The thinking is happening but I am not fully aware of it till I become aware.

Are they your thoughts?

In the above scenario the thoughts are about the past and future and they are going on without any direction from "me". Other thoughts during the day are about planning, decisions, exploring my experience (like I am doing now), thoughts prior to and during talking and responding to people. Tonight I was feeling the let down/contrast to all the beauty of the last three days leading to a blah bored feeling of back to normal routine again and then I looked deeper and saw "simply thinking". That dissolved it.

Are they your thoughts?

It feels like yes and no. I don't really understand where thoughts are coming from. I'm used to feeling they are mine but I like the the shift to "simply thinking". They are just happening.

Are you a decision maker ?

I often have trouble with making decisions. I'm learning that it doesn't really matter what I choose as much as I felt it did. So I am letting go of ego grasping there too.

Let me know which questions you need to explore here.

I just explored them all so I guess there answer is all of them.

learn how to use the quote function

Did I get it right?

[warissem]

Hi Rosie

Thank you for your sweet birthday wishes. I'm feeling very tired right now after another full day; my children and husband and I spent the day at a spa for more birthday honoring. Being celebrated with such love and acknowledgment from my family and friends was so nurturing. I was so filled up with love and at times I felt like I was only love.

I am glad to hear all that.

I was noticing how interesting it was that they were celebrating my separate self that was both there and not there.

There is no separate self to celebrate, consciousness is celebrating itself.

I was also noticing when I was managing and controlling things, like looking at little expectations and small disappointments that I normally might have held onto longer but allowed the ego grasping to just let go, seeing it was just a bunch of thoughts.

Do you notice that all what is said above is a bunch of thoughts?
It has no relation with direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations).

Let us give more light to thoughts and thinking.
Sit down comfortably and observe thoughts then answer to these questions :

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

PS : about the quote function, right on.

Best for you

[Primrose9]

consciousness is celebrating itself

Thank you. Tears and gratitude arise for being directed to this way of being with celebration. There is only fullness in it. It also brings up how grateful I am for your guidance in seeing thru self. I would love to know what part of the world you are in and what you look like if that is allowed.

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

They seem to just be there just like seeing, hearing, smelling, etc. This has been a new and refreshing way to be with thoughts since going the through the 1st fetter of the awakening curriculum.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

I am seeing more and more that I do not make a particular thought appear though I get a bit confused in the light of people like Byron Katie's work where you notice that no thoughts are true and then choose a thought that turns around the negative thought.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No. Not when thoughts just appear yet in the above example, though I do not actively practice this presently, I would turn around a negative thought to a positive one which still would not necessarily be true but would feel more uplifting. In that case am I choosing a thought?

Can you predict your next thought?

No. I can not.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No yet again there are instances when I do intentionally choose pleasant thoughts. Like right now I can look at a flower and think, "I love that rose, it is beautiful". Am I selecting that thought or is it just appearing like all the others?

More later as I have to leave to pick up my grand daughters at school.

Thanks so much Warrisem,
With Love,
Rosie (Primrose)

[warissem]

Good evening

Thank you. Tears and gratitude arise for being directed to this way of being with celebration. There is only fullness in it. It also brings up how grateful I am for your guidance in seeing thru self. I would love to know what part of the world you are in and what you look like if that is allowed.

I am glad to hear this. I live in Algiers (Algeria).

They seem to just be there just like seeing, hearing, smelling, etc. This has been a new and refreshing way to be with thoughts since going the through the 1st fetter of the awakening curriculum.

Yes, great.

I am seeing more and more that I do not make a particular thought appear though I get a bit confused in the light of people like Byron Katie's work where you notice that no thoughts are true and then choose a thought that turns around the negative thought.

"Choosing a thought" is a manner of speaking. Can a thought be known before it arises?

No. Not when thoughts just appear yet in the above example, though I do not actively practice this presently, I would turn around a negative thought to a positive one which still would not necessarily be true but would feel more uplifting. In that case am I choosing a thought?

When a positive thought is noticed, it was already here, isn't it?

No yet again there are instances when I do intentionally choose pleasant thoughts. Like right now I can look at a flower and think, "I love that rose, it is beautiful". Am I selecting that thought or is it just appearing like all the others?

Look for yourself and answer to your question.

More later as I have to leave to pick up my grand daughters at school.

Take all your time.

Thanks so much Warrisem,

You are much welcome.

[Primrose9]

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No. I can not. These thoughts run on their own. As mentioned before after I notice they have been running without me being fully focused and aware of the ongoing conversation it seems that I can shift to noticing and watching that thinking is just happening, that nothing is ultimately true or has the meaning my thoughts are giving it and then it seems that I stop them or they just stop on their own from this awareness. I would like to understand what has the thoughts going on and on and then what has me then become aware of them. It's like a little dream I guess. I'm quite amazed at how this happens, how unconscious thinking can go on for minutes and when I finally see it happening there is amazement at how I was completely lost in thought. I and have been looking at this for a while because there is no witnessing possible. The thinking just goes off on it's own little journey.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I am looking deeper from your responses to my earlier post and I see that the thought about the rose was already there. So it seems I am not choosing it. I will keep exploring this.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No. It is not.

"Choosing a thought" is a manner of speaking. Can a thought be known before it arises?

I'm a bit caught in seeing this completely. If I see a negative thought and change it to a positive thought it seems to me that I am choosing that shift to a positive thought. The thought is not known before it arises yet is known as it arises from my choice to shift to a positive thought. What am I missing here? I want to see this.

I live in Algiers (Algeria).

Thank you. I live in Petaluma, California, USA. So you are 8 hours ahead of me.
<3