Everything is Grist for the Mill

[DeannaMP]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
"no real, inherent self" means that what feels like a central locus that is experiencing things and is separate from those things is really a conglomeration of thoughts made up of memories and conditioning. No different than any other thought that occurs.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am working with The Awakening Curriculum, currently Fetter 2. I learn best by hearing others experiences. I'm also looking for community because I don't really have anybody in my life right now to explore this with.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Someone who can point to where I'm self deluded, to keep me honest. I would also like to be able to discuss stuff that comes up in daily life that I use as I work through the fetters. Reactions and triggers that are part of shadow work

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I learned meditation in 1994 and went through a New Age, New Thought phase while I deconstructed from Catholisim. While working at new age bookstore, I read everything because I thought I had to replace Christianity with something else. After a few years I realized it was all bullshit and settled on skepticism and atheism but kept an interest in secular Buddhism. Until about 8 months ago non duality came up on my radar through you tube. I think it was Angelo Dillulo. Lots of rabbit holes later I ended up here

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Windaway]

Dear DeannaMP ,

(is that what you prefer to be called?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. It’s great to see you here!
My name is David, and I’ll be glad to assist in exploring your experience.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.

1) The LU Disclaimer: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do so as well.

What time zone are you in?

I’m in the indochina time —GMT +7

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

[DeannaMP]

Hi David! You can call me Deanna. My time zone is GMT - 4 United States.

I am ready!

[Windaway]

Hello Deanna,

Great. Let's begin.

If you look for the I, what is there?

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

Where exactly did you look?

What exactly did you find?

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

[DeannaMP]

If you look for the I, what is there?

Lots of thoughts about what “the I” is or should be. There is physical body feeling/perceptions which immediately gets labeled “me”. I also feel like I have to work hard to remember this.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

I can feel the truth of that statement and also feel like it doesn’t change how I go about my day except for the added step of having to remember this. If it was self evident, why do I think I have to remember?

Where exactly did you look?

I looked at thoughts, felt into the body, and sensed what is happening at this moment.

What exactly did you find?

Thoughts, thoughts, thoughts. I, I, I. Thoughts of I layering over direct experience.

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

The pull of diversions and distractions is strong. Every time there is a thought, “how am I going to write about this?” other thoughts about anything else but this pop up. It feels like no doer, no thinker, no manager, no decider – just thoughts all the way down, shaped by environment, culture, etc. No “authentic self” that responds to reality that I have to realize. Just conditioned responses, input/output. Now having thoughts that its hopeless – being a better person, suffering less, causing less suffering (what I thought was the outcome of awakening). There’s still a sense of “but if there’s no manager, how am I going to stop causing myself and others to suffer?” Very much a lot of thinking. When I feel into the body and reality there is just body and reality. Feels like I need to say, “now what?”.

[Windaway]

Hell Deanna,

Thank you for your honest answer. Let's start with clarification about Direct Experience.


Coloured Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[DeannaMP]

Hi David,

Thank you for the clarification about direct experience. That was very helpful. I do have a question: Is looking at thoughts direct experiencing?

There is this body looking, seeing, smelling, hearing, tasting, and touching. When I try to look for a me that decided to do these body things I can't find anything. Then when I looked to see who was looking for "a me" I thought, "the looking was a thought", then, "hey, that's also a thought!" Just thoughts referencing other thoughts. The real stuff is what the body is sensing. I can't find an entity that i could call "me" directing the body or even responding to the environment.

Does that make sense? Just a body sensing the environment and thoughts popping up like popcorn and no entity Deanna behind it all.

[Windaway]

Hello Deanna,

Very interesting questions.

Is looking at thoughts direct experiencing?

Yes.

Thoughts are not ABOUT anything.
As you said :
thoughts referencing other thoughts.

But the experience of thinking appears in your direct experience.

There is this body looking, seeing, smelling, hearing, tasting, and touching.
The real stuff is what the body is sensing.

How do you know you have a body?

There are sensations. But how do you know there is a physical body? What proof do you have?

Look carefully at sensations, without thought, can you find "a body" ?




Exploration
If you look for the I, what is there?

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

Where exactly did you look?

What exactly did you find?

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

[DeannaMP]

David,

I am currently traveling to the other side of the country and am having problems finding a quiet moment to respond. I'll be posting soon!

[DeannaMP]

How do you know you have a body?

There are sensations. But how do you know there is a physical body? What proof do you have?

Look carefully at sensations, without thought, can you find "a body" ?

I thought I knew I have a body. Of course I have a body! I can sense it and move it and not bump into things. I put stuff in it and other stuff comes out of it. I have evidence provided by the senses, not proof - proof is for alcohol and math, lol.

But then I reread the last question and thought maybe I’m not directly sensing the body! Is what I think of as “my body” a thought? When I try to sense the body I notice that right away a label is applied and then I see a picture in my mind of the body part I’m focusing on, I.e. my right foot as seen from above. I found myself trying to sense the foot and pushing away thoughts and then I realized the pushing away was more thoughts. I can see my body by looking at it and looking in the mirror. I can feel it when I touch my skin but I know intellectually that the seeing and the touch feeling is happening in the brain. And now I’m not embodied anymore and immersed in thought trying to “figure it all out.”

I guess, where I finally end up is that the body’s senses sense what they sense and thought is needed for the brain to make sense of the sensing! Are the thoughts accurately interpreting the sensory inputs? Seems good enough since the body is still alive. I have no idea and it feels like there is no access to that objective reality.

Now it feels like I got a little sidetracked in the previous paragraph because now I can see the thought-labels contain “I” and “me/mine”. And while it is appropriate to believe the thought, “the right foot is down there on the floor and the table leg is right next to it, avoid!”, the “my” foot thought doesn’t reference reality because there no entity that owns or directs the foot. My first inclination is to say the subconscious is directing but that is just more thoughts that were conditioned by environment. I don’t see the oneness of it all as I have heard others say. I’m ok with the mystery, I want to relax in that and not worry about seeing or understanding at the moment. I want to keep inquiring though.

[Windaway]

Hello Deanna.

But then I reread the last question and thought maybe I’m not directly sensing the body! Is what I think of as “my body” a thought? When I try to sense the body I notice that right away a label is applied and then I see a picture in my mind of the body part I’m focusing on, I.e. my right foot

Very interesting.
Most of the time we think about the body more than we feel it. Feeling the sensation without the labeling can be life-changing.

At the moment we will focus on the separate self.

Can you find a separate entity in your sensation?

Can you find a Deanna in your sensation ?

If you look for the I, what is there?

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

Where exactly did you look?

What exactly did you find?

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

[DeannaMP]

Hello!

Can you find a separate entity in your sensation?

No

Can you find a Deanna in your sensation ?

No Deanna until a label is applied.

If you look for the I, what is there?

Just sensation for a few seconds then the first label followed by "I" thoughts.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

Acceptance, relaxation. I feel innocent yet feel freer to accept responsibility.

Where exactly did you look?
What exactly did you find?

I looked at the sensation hearing, it was just sound for a few seconds. I noticed that it just happens. I couldn’t find a point where “I” decided to hear. The next part is not Direct Experience - I thought if there’s no doer etc, then there is no choice, just inputs (direct experience, past conditioning, beliefs) and outputs (actions, more beliefs), a causal stream going back to infinity maybe. Responsibility, not blame is just a thought-attitude towards the no-blame thought. Anyway, I may have gotten way off track there.

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Seeing - then label “flowers”, then thought stream.
Hearing - then label “TV”, then thought stream.
Tasting - then label “neutral” then thought stream.
Body sensation - then label “heart beating fast” then thought stream, “I must be anxious”.

It seems like it goes in this order: sensation (seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, thought) then label is added which seems to be the first step in separating the sensation into an object separate from me. Then more thoughts which seems to solidify the separation.

Thank you, David, keep the inquiry coming! I’m excited to explore all angles and I am also excited to be called out for any bullshit!

[Windaway]

Hello Deanna,

Acceptance, relaxation. I feel innocent yet feel freer to accept responsibility.

Great, keep following this taste of acceptance and relaxation.

I looked at the sensation hearing, it was just sound for a few seconds. I noticed that it just happens. I couldn’t find a point where “I” decided to hear. The next part is not Direct Experience

Perfect, thank for sharing you thoughts. But I feel you are in a place were you can drop them all together.
Can we agre to call the "thought stream" simply thinking?

Seeing - then label “flowers”, then thought stream.
Hearing - then label “TV”, then thought stream.
Tasting - then label “neutral” then thought stream.
Body sensation - then label “heart beating fast” then thought stream, “I must be anxious”.

Beautifull, that's very important.

It seems like it goes in this order: sensation (seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, thought) then label is added which seems to be the first step in separating the sensation into an object separate from me. Then more thoughts which seems to solidify the separation

.

How does that feel when you are in sensation without thinking?

In you daily activity, can you see this labeling/thinking?

How does that impact your relationship?

How does that feel in your body this freedom to accept responsibility?

[DeannaMP]

Can we agree to call the "thought stream" simply thinking?

Yes! It’s kind of o relief and timesaver not having to type all those thoughts.

How does that feel when you are in sensation without thinking?

Feels like nothing. Just color and form. Only lasts a split second then labeling.

In your daily activity, can you see this labeling/thinking?

I just went for a 30 minute walk outside and looked at the sensation labeling thinking process. I noticed how quickly the process happened. After the labeling/thinking happened it couldn’t be undone so I focused on another sensation and looked at the process again, over and over again.

How does that impact your relationship?

Relationship to reality? Hard to explain with words. The image that comes to mind is that reality is a painting and I'm not looking at the painting but I'm also in the painting. And inside the painting its 3 dimensional. There's no "outside" the painting no one looking at the painting.

How does that feel in your body this freedom to accept responsibility?

Now the notion of "accepting responsibility “ doesn't make sense anymore. Who is accepting responsibility? I don’t feel it in the body, just thought confusion. If I feel into the thought, “no one responsible “, I feel that relief and relaxation in the solar plexus and the thought I can trust the input/output life process.

[Windaway]

Hello Deanna,

Let's keeping exploring Direct Experience. Let's take this exploration to you everyday life. Do it as much as you can during the day. WITHOUT straining or effort. If the joy and curiosity are not there don't do it. This path is simple and joyfull. Be careful to not transform this exploration into a technic or a effort based practice.

Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities

The purpose of this exercise is to make sure we that when we talk about Direct Experience (DE). We are talking about the same thing you and me.
For you to know anything it must appear in your experience. You know the world, object, and people “out there” through your experience. What we are interested at this moment is to be clear about what this experience looks like in your Direct Experience.
Without interring into too much theory here. We can say that is your experience is made of 6 senses:

* Seeing

* Hearing

* Smelling

* Tasting

* Sensing (Sensation)
(sensation of inside: proprioception, kinesthetic, interoception)
(sensation of outside object/people or touching)

* Thinking

For example:
when you look at an object all you see is color.
When you think about your family or a pink elephant all there in Direct Experience is thought.
When you listen, a bird singing all there is in Direct Experience is sound.
When
Etc….
Is that clear?

If that is clear try to go thought your day labeling daily activities simply with what is actually here; colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
Watching by the widow = colors = seeing
Hearing the traffic = hearing
Drinking coffee = tasting