fetter 1

[Linda61]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is that I will be matched with a guide and will communicate through email or zoom to break through this belief in a separate self. I don't have a full understanding of how often this communication will take place (daily email? weekly?) but I open and receptive to whatever assistance can be provided. Thank you, in advance.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking and hoping for support and guidance along this path. Although I have continually 'looked' for a self and not found one I believe there is a breakthrough that has not happened. Maybe there is a small missing step that I have skipped during the past few decades. I am looking into this website and reading through the tabs and finding out more even as I am writing this. I have not studied much Buddhism but the fetter work seems to resonate with me and I would like to explore all the fetters. This seems like this is the starting point and I look forward to exploring this forum.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am hoping for some one- on- one guidance as to how to truly 'get' that there is no separate self experiencially without the concepts. I don't know how that unfolds in your process with a guide, but I am so hopeful that guided conversations will help me to break through some barrier (maybe fear?) that seems to be in the way of experiencing this in a deeper way.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been a long time seeker using inquiry, meditation and beautiful writings/scriptures as guides. I have worked and studied mostly with Non-dual teachers and the teachings in the Upanishads and Christian Mysticism. I feel there is 'more' to this experience when I listen to descriptions of what others have realized. I often go into the 'direct experience' of presence, but the teachings are still a bit conceptual and I so want guidance how to move to this deeper realization.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[indranet]

Hi, I'm J.P

I would be honored to guide you on this journey.

What would you like me to call you?


Please watch this video, it will make our communication easier.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

[Linda61]

Hi J.P,
So happy to get a reply. This is Linda.

Today is Easter Sunday so I will be off my computer most of the day with family, cooking etc.,but I look forward to starting in whatever fashion that is!

Do we communicate daily-or try to be online at the same time? Or just back and forth as schedules permit?
I just got the Gateless Gate book and Libertation Unleashed (I have read about 10 pages of each book).

Very excited about this and your willingness to walk me through this 'process/seeing'.
Much gratitude,
Linda

[indranet]

Hi Linda,

Daily posting is ideal , but I'm flexible about that since everyone has different life demands.

Even if you cannot post daily you should be doing the inner work daily.

Have a good Easter,I will leave you with my first question.


How do you know that an independent "I" called Linda exists?

Please answer from your own direct experience not from conceptual understanding.

J.P

[Linda61]

Hi J.P,

Easter holiday family is gone and I have time to reply/post each day. I am on and off the computer throughout each day in Central Time.

You mentioned doing the 'inner work'. Please let me know if that is something that unfolds as you guide me or do you simply mean reflecting on the questions you ask?

Also, I have been listening to Vince's meetings (the last 2), but haven't been able to go to live one. Is this a good idea as you work with me--will it reinforce what we do together?

So you ask--How do you know that an independent "I" called Linda exists"

As I reflect on this question it seems like the evidence I am using that there is a Linda is thoughts and body sensations.
I have asked questions like 'are these thoughts mine, who would they belong to', 'is there a me that is thinking'..... and the answer is unclear, I can say 'no', but it feels sticky, like the thoughts are clinging to me.

It feels almost like I am using logic which is fine, but not really a 'shift' like others describe.

Regarding the body sensations--the strongest sensations are in the chest and seem 'strong'. I know that a feeling in the chest doesn't indicate a 'person called Linda', but again, it seems to be at the mental level and logical.

Did I answer enough for now? I could go on and on..but I feel like I may be all over the place.. haha. Thank you.
Linda

[indranet]

Hi Linda,

simply mean reflecting on the questions you ask?

Yes, that is what I meant.

Also, I have been listening to Vince's meetings (the last 2), but haven't been able to go to live one. Is this a good idea as you work with me--will it reinforce what we do together?

It's not a requirement, but you might find it helpful.

the evidence I am using that there is a Linda is thoughts and body sensations.

Yes, that is all there is.

thoughts are clinging to me

look at this closer, do thoughts cling to you?

the strongest sensations are in the chest and seem 'strong'.

Describe these sensations, do they indicate an "I"?

J.P

[Linda61]

Hi again,

Thank you for answering the questions about the inquiry and Vince's videos.

I am still working with the 'quote' system used here with the video; I will get the hang of it.

do thoughts cling to you?

The clinging is more like 'they belong to me'... they are mine and no one else is thinking the thoughts about teaching yoga today (which I did this morning) so this thought belongs to a person named Linda. Have I just made a habit out of calling them mine and it's possible to break this habit?

As I am typing this it seems so silly. Your question was simple; 'do thoughts cling to you'.

I am making this complicated. Maybe it will get simple with your guidance.

Describe these sensations, do they indicate an "I"?

The sensation that is strongest in the chest/sternum and it feels like pressure or weight/heaviness. It's not unpleasant but it's there and noticed. The sensation seems to be very close, in 'my body, my chest, my sternum'. I keep claiming the sensations but I can't really find an owner. The sensations would just indicate sensations. There is no reason for them to indicate an 'I'.

But there is no 'aha'. It still feels like logic.

I will reflect on these questions more. Thank you.

[indranet]

Linda,

Have I just made a habit out of calling them mine and it's possible to break this habit?

Yes and yes.

I keep claiming the sensations but I can't really find an owner. The sensations would just indicate sensations. There is no reason for them to indicate an 'I'.

Correct.


There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:
• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.
Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Direct Experience
Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile. Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.

Give it some time
Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience (DE).

Tell me how it goes.

J.P

[Linda61]

I have been reading and re-reading your post since yesterday and sitting with it.

When you explain about knowledge and seeing.... yes, I understand the difference, most of what i have experienced is interpreted with a thin layer of mind and not much direct seeing. I am not sure how to flip this, but with your guidance and input I am hopeful.

Your example of the socks is funny and very clear-- but old patterns will probably keep giving the mind answers as I am typing and investigating. I will try to notice that and you will point it out to me I am sure.

Just writing this now and even yesterday--tears come to my eyes that "this isn't working' and "those cool direct experiences and seeings are happening to other bodies'. I am only sharing this in case it's relevant.

So, back to the 'assignment'...
Yes, the mind labels everything.... so just seeing.....

I really don't know how to observe the process of seeing so my words will not be very accurate.
But when I look at seeing I get nothing.
It just feels empty. Like it's a nothing.
A little fluttering in the chest shows up but maybe that's a distraction.
I feel like I'm looking at space instead of objects.

This seems flat and not very revealing.

Thank you for reading this and sending help when you have time.
Linda

[indranet]

Linda,

You are overcoming a lifetime of not-seeing, be patient. Dispassionate observation and honesty will reveal the truth.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and come up with a list of your own.

You are doing fine, it is not a race.

J.P

[Linda61]

Hi J.P,

This is fun. Thank you for this homework. I love the 'senses'-- lots of joy exploring the 'sensing' over the last year.

At lunchtime:

the clicking of silverware---just hearing--sound
taking a bite of food-just tasting-taste
this tastes good--a thought which appears and then disappears--just thinking-thought
glancing towards the dogs-visual-just looking-sight just-seeing-images of colors and shape
feeling peace--sensation-

Yes, this feels like direct experience...it just is.
It feel different without the overlay of interpretation.(explantions and descriptions)

I had a little overlay because I was typing it out with words, but very 'light'.

(I will continue this)
Thank you. Please tweak this as needed.

[indranet]

linda,

Good work.

feeling peace--sensation-

Are you sure about this one? Is peace a label or a sensation?




Ok, try this exercise. I know these exercises can seem a little cookie cutter but they serve an important purpose.



Finding the Gap
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.
Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.
6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.
Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:-
Looking how they come and go, and Observing the short gap between them. Noticing how the current thought is passing. And waiting for the next thought to come.
Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Where is the "I"

[Linda61]

Hi again,

Yes, peace is a description/label---just sensation.

Now, I will work with the exercises and report back (tonight or tomorrow) and then keep doing them.

Thank you.

[Linda61]

Hi J.P.,

Thank you for these 'exercises'--noticing thoughts and then the space between thoughts-- with eyes closed and then when moving about the day eyes open.

Alot of thoughts were coming quickly with eyes closed, finally able to settle and notice the space between them.

When moving about the day, it's easier for me to notice the space between thoughts-mainly because the 'sense field' (vision/hearing/sensation) seems very comfortable and this practice is not new.

So, the question---Where is the I?

I am not sure how to answer this.
When moving about the kitchen preparing dinner, cleaning up etc. there isn't really much of an 'I'. I suppose the I is more watching the movements (chopping, wiping, washing) But it feels move like movement without a director.

When seated --'where is the I"?

I am blanking at what to write.
There is a sense of something watching a lot of thoughts; someone noticing that the thoughts were fast and watching them drift away and then more coming back. But I don't know where that someone called I is.

But that doesn't feel right. As I write this the chest is tensing- I have no clue how to answer this question.

I am sorry this is a mess of answer, I am going to stop typing. I have written and deleted about 10 times already.

I will just send what I have and try again later,
Linda

[indranet]

linda,

I am sorry this is a mess of answer, I am going to stop typing. I have written and deleted about 10 times already

Don't worry about that, the mind can never figure this out.

movement without a director.

let's look at this some more.


Observe your daily activities, eating, walking, preparing food etc. Is anyone controlling or deciding to do these things?

look carefully at the thought train, don't assume you know the answer.


Have fun.
J.P