ISO The Guide which Resonates

[72457245]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? The 'self' appears to be an illusory program of thoughts which eventually can be seen through to reveal simply what is (without the constant reference point of a 'self'). The guide provides guidance to the guided so that only the hearing, seeing, feeling, sensing, smelling and being remain.

What are you looking for at LU? It seems like the self is dropping off but is incomplete, or "coming and going" would like to finish the job or help the process along. I would like to work with a guide with an extremely high level of experience/self realization if possible.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I try not to have expectations but a paragraph is needed here so let me create a few. I expect the guide to ask questions, listen to my answers, assess the sincerity/authenticity, detect any signs of 'wishful answering' and be vigilant and relentless in pursuing the end goal.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Kriya yoga, some self inquiry, breath watching meditation, group awareness meditation, headless way, approx. 1.5 years in earnest.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Noro]

Hello, and welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Rowena and I am happy to be your guide.
Please let me know what you would like me to call you.

1. As you are already aware, here at LU we are exploring of the idea of the separate self. In order to keep the momentum going with this enquiry, please post your responses on a regular basis, it doesn't have to be daily, but If you are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. For this process to work you have to be focused on your DE (direct experience) of what's actually happening and describe your findings without relying on thought, memory, or imagination. Long-winded analytical and/or philosophical answers are best avoided as they can hinder 'seeing'. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

3. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading etc. for the duration of this investigation, unless it is LU based material. Put all your effort and attention in to seeing what is, as it is, with 100% honesty. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

4. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

and "Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


5. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)

6. Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions ( I try to always put them in blue text. But please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.)
Please answer questions individually, as this will assist us in having a clear dialogue.

7. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers. Here's a video link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

OK, let's begin:

Please look at this thoroughly for a full day, repeatedly (aim for 20-30 small lookings/investigations) before replying.

What is it that you perceive yourself to be in your everyday life?

When you say or think 'I', what do you refer to with the word 'I'?

Please make sure that your answers come from directly observing yourself in the midst of your busy, everyday life and not from any acquired intellectual knowledge.

With love,
Rowena

[72457245]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you so much for being my guide in this and it's great to virtually meet you. You can call me Colin. Answers to the questions are below.

What is it that you perceive yourself to be in your everyday life?

It seems like it changes a bit. Sometimes it seems like something I refer to as "I" or "me" that is partly a body and partly a mind and an inner sense. Lately a "blank" answer has been appearing, which happened today a few times when I asked throughout the day. I'm not sure if that's "I don't know".

When you say or think 'I', what do you refer to with the word 'I'?

I think I refer to this body and mind. A vehicle and what's thinking or conscious and even controlling the body. Lately I have not been thinking of that body and mind with a distinct history and story.

[Noro]

Hi Colin,

Pleased to meet you too, in this virtual reality. I am based in Belgium, so the time zone here is CET. Where are you based, what time zone?

It seems like it changes a bit. Sometimes it seems like something I refer to as "I" or "me" that is partly a body and partly a mind and an inner sense. Lately a "blank" answer has been appearing, which happened today a few times when I asked throughout the day. I'm not sure if that's "I don't know".

Coming up with a "blank" or "I don't know" points towards a definite loosening of identification with being a self with a body, mind and inner sense.

I think I refer to this body and mind. A vehicle and what's thinking or conscious and even controlling the body. Lately I have not been thinking of that body and mind with a distinct history and story.

That's great, you are on your way!

What comes up when reading there is no separate "self," never has been and never will be? It is all a made-up story? Please describe any thoughts and feelings.

EXPECTATIONS

Now let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "i"?

2. How will you change?

3. What do you want or expect to be different?

4. What do you not want to happen?

5. What is missing right now that you expect to have when there is a shift?

Only fear and expectations can prevent clear seeing of no self.

It won't be 24/7. There's likely to.be a "honeymoon period," and then what we call, "got it, lost it," as untrue beliefs come up to be questioned. The following videos talk about this:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w
"FALLING", Integration of Awakening. Ilona Ciunate

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4
"Sometimes waking up goes back and forth a bit"

Love,
Rowena

[72457245]

Pleased to meet you too, in this virtual reality. I am based in Belgium, so the time zone here is CET. Where are you based, what time zone?

I'm in Puerto Vallarta, we are in Mountain time at the moment until the fall :)

What comes up when reading there is no separate "self," never has been and never will be? It is all a made-up story? Please describe any thoughts and feelings.

Almost nothing at all. Just blank or maybe, "yes that sounds right"?

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "i"?

I think these expectations are something I need to deeply explore. I think I imagine that things won't change too much except that maybe things will seem "less personal." I am really unsure on this. On some level, I think it depends "how much" or how deep this is truly realized. I imagine it like if it is completely dropped, there could be a new seeing of life in a way. This is how it is described by some people so I'm just going off of that. Without the filter of me, a sense of oneness and lack of separation with everything. I feel like this maybe very far off though, and a more subtle experience will appear first. Like I feel like it already is happening very gradually (so gradually that sometimes I can doubt it) and maybe that pace will continue. In general I have already been able to improve experience of life with less thoughts, less/no attachment to past story etc. How will life change - I don't know! I guess life doesn't need ME to be... so maybe it won't change at all.

2. How will you change?

Well, if me is really an illusion, than I will die and fall away forever to be lost, though maybe I could dig myself up again if I really tried/wanted to - I have heard of people doing that. I imagine this to be slow but I hope for some reason it will be more dramatic, to clear doubts and see it VERY clearly without question.

3. What do you want or expect to be different?

To see a clearer version of truth. To see reality unfiltered. A greater sense of freedom. I think there will be a greater ease to life but I am wary that this is just more craving/desire. A greater allowing and appreciation for things how they are, less resistance. Less wanting to change. More satisfaction with what IS and what "I" am.

4. What do you not want to happen?

I really can't think of anything here. I'm just not sure. I guess I would not want to physically die, maybe that would seem like the end of "my" life. I am not scared of that in this process, but maybe that points to an attachment to the sense of "me" that will be tougher to let go of than I seem to think on the outside.

5. What is missing right now that you expect to have when there is a shift?

I feel like the time at the mall, the self was really seen through and things were arising just automatically to no one. At the moment it feels more conceptual kind of, and a relentless seeking seems to appear, and an obsession about seeing through the self etc. It is kind of uncomfortable to have this rabid seeking that rises and falls and I sort of hope/expect it to die off because the self is the one who is the rabid seeker.

Only fear and expectations can prevent clear seeing of no self.

That is a great reminder, I had not heard of this before. I look forward to diving more into these to deconstruct them as needed and find more hidden ones if there are any lurking around.

Thank you very much Rowena. I checked out those links. I will watch them again before bed tonight.

All the best, Colin

[Noro]

Hi Colin,

You're expectations are very reasonable, below a few pointers to look at:

Well, if me is really an illusion, than I will die and fall away forever to be lost, though maybe I could dig myself up again if I really tried/wanted to - I have heard of people doing that. I imagine this to be slow but I hope for some reason it will be more dramatic, to clear doubts and see it VERY clearly without question.

If "you" are an illusion, then how could you die? You never were!

To see a clearer version of truth. To see reality unfiltered. A greater sense of freedom. I think there will be a greater ease to life but I am wary that this is just more craving/desire. A greater allowing and appreciation for things how they are, less resistance. Less wanting to change. More satisfaction with what IS and what "I" am.

"A greater sense of freedom" comes from "Less wanting to change". So you're right on target!

I really can't think of anything here. I'm just not sure. I guess I would not want to physically die, maybe that would seem like the end of "my" life. I am not scared of that in this process, but maybe that points to an attachment to the sense of "me" that will be tougher to let go of than I seem to think on the outside.

This sense of "me" is not going to go away, but how you "label" the sensation will change.

It is kind of uncomfortable to have this rabid seeking that rises and falls and I sort of hope/expect it to die off because the self is the one who is the rabid seeker.

I would like you to look into this:
What does this rabid seeking manifest as other than thoughts?
Where in the body do you find uncomfortable feelings when the seeking rises.
Are you sure that this self (which you have already understood to have been an illusion and stated so above in your first answer) is the rabid seeker?
How can it be a seeker if it doesn't exist?
What arises when you contemplate this?



HOW TO BECOME CLEAR WHEN LOOKING FOR EVIDENCE OF A 'SELF'
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing, and seeing that there is nothing.
If you can’t SEE for yourself directly, you cannot describe what you see in your own words.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

COLORED SOCKS
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.


DIRECT OR ACTUAL EXPERIENCE IS
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling or Sensing (without naming emotion as this is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Cognizing or Thinking (but not the content of thinking. Thinking about content is just more thinking and diverts you from the direct experience)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Direct Experience is not conceptual, or made of thought.
Experiencing happens before thought arrives to describe or explain it.
The moment we attempt to communicate experience we introduce concepts. We then respond or identify with those concepts.


DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF DAILY ACTIVITIES

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities as simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of the experiencing of a cup of coffee

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thinking about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with your own list exactly like the one above. The point is to learn the difference between Actual / Direct Experience and the content of thought, which is an overlay on the DE.

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above, please, using the same word forms/layout of your direct experiencing.

Have fun,

Warm wishes,
Rowena

[72457245]

If "you" are an illusion, then how could you die? You never were!

True! I guess I meant, the sense of me, or what I take to be me would die. But what you say is a good pointer. There is nothing to even lose. It's just realizing that it never was in the first place.

This sense of "me" is not going to go away, but how you "label" the sensation will change.

This is a little blurry! I think maybe that is what I have been waiting to go away. So will that label become something else? Just "thought"? or something like that?

Where in the body do you find uncomfortable feelings when the seeking rises.

It is sort of in the head and eyes I think. Almost like a pacing around and not seeing anything, like a pain in the head with anxiousness and heat and a desperation to FIND the SOLUTION. A certain business of mind but it's not necessarily a lot of thoughts, more like a noise or a tension. It is like a compulsion to DO DO DO FIND FIND FIND but it is inherently uncomfortable and all the seeking does not help the sensations in the head.

Are you sure that this self (which you have already understood to have been an illusion and stated so above in your first answer) is the rabid seeker?

I am not sure! How could it be if it does not exist. I think I have taken what someone else said (the "me" never sees the situation of self or outside situation as good enough for long and applied that to this "illusory sense of self" that seems to "rise and fall". But maybe it's just seeking that rises and falls, to no one.

How can it be a seeker if it doesn't exist?

It cannot, impossible. Seeking must just be arising.

What arises when you contemplate this?

That there is a belief that "seeking is arising and driven from a "sense of self"" And I do not know that to be true in reality. If I let go of that belief, and go with "seeking is just arising" which seems pretty true in direct experience, perhaps it is easier to accept the seeking as just what's happening and not something a "me" needs to get rid of for relief.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Clear! Use only the senses for investigation/seeing, not thought upon thought or belief.

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above, please, using the same word forms/layout of your direct experiencing.

Typing on computer: color/image, sensation
Washing dishes: sensation, image/color, sound, smell
Looking at wall: image/color, sound
Watching a video: color/image, sound
Eating a neem leaf: taste/sensation/sound
Tapping on a desk: sensation, sound
Listening to birds and water outside: sound, sensation
Looking at my hand: image/color, sensation

[Noro]

Good morning Colin,

It's just realizing that it never was in the first place.

YES!

This is a little blurry! I think maybe that is what I have been waiting to go away. So will that label become something else? Just "thought"? or something like that?

Lets LOOK!

The difference in Feeling something to be true and Seeing that it is or isn't.

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there.
At this point you can keep on believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit that even if they were, they are no longer there now.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now I'd like you to explore this sense of self very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING for it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does it do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, contraction?
What is the sense of self made of? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

In conclusion, is there any self to be found?
Remember, it is your direct experience, **not whatever feelings and thoughts that come up about it**, that we want to get clear about.

all the seeking does not help the sensations in the head

What does the seeking want to find?
What do you hope will happen then?
What if the seeking never finds what it wants to find (a bit like the lost car keys)?
Can you be in a body where there is always seeking but no seeker to be found?
Yes or No, be honest with yourself and describe what happens as sensations in the body with this acceptance or non-acceptance


MIND LABELLING EXPERIENCE
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots.
For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
hearing clock ticking
looking at computer screen
feeling hungry
smelling coffee

Finally, try the two together, first say with "I am" and next without: I am walking / walking

Pay attention to body sensations, watch what is happening in the body.
What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….."
What is the body sensation without the add-on of "I am…."?

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled.

Does one feel truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Love,
Rowena

[Noro]

Hi Colin,

I missed sending you all of the questions regarding the Mind-Labelling Experience exercise:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without the labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Rowena

[72457245]

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

For sure. That makes sense, like a sticky belief... but no evidence, so just keep checking evidence. I think there is this other doubt that it's by means of self that I cannot find the evidence for it. Should we deconstruct that one somehow?

Does the sense of self have a location?

If I "feel" for it and say "where is the sense of self" attention is drawn to the heart area. But I cannot actually find it there by using the sight, hearing, physical touch, smell or taste... yet I seem to feel inside that I AM, yet maybe that is just a strong thought. What is actually being perceived is like a thought connected to a vibration or something, but that is also a thought. I cannot be sure the sense of self has a location. Yet I am not 100% convinced it doesn't have a location somehow. Well, I can't find it with evidence, so for now, which is all there is, it is not there.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

I don't think so based on the above.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

I can't find any evidence of this. So no.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, contraction?

There is a lingering doubt that there is a sensation near the heart that is somehow connected to it. Maybe it's something I read about though just appearing as a thought. But somehow it feels like a solid thing in there that needs to be evicted! When I really look though, all I find are sensations. Pulses, vibration... but they are not wearing any signs that say "sense of self is here". Could more than likely just be bodily processes.

What is the sense of self made of? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

A vibration if anything. But I have no evidence to connect any vibration to a "sense of self". So, nothing.

In conclusion, is there any self to be found?

I cannot find one conclusively. Just suspicions and thoughts and some intuition perhaps about one.

What does the seeking want to find? What do you hope will happen then?

I think it wants to find comfort! Less suffering. THE ANSWER! Progress! Peacefulness and contentedness with what is, ironically. An ability to be peaceful or ecstatic at will, no matter what the situation.

What if the seeking never finds what it wants to find (a bit like the lost car keys)?

I guess it will never stop. Because seeking can only seek.

Can you be in a body where there is always seeking but no seeker to be found?

Yes.

Yes or No, be honest with yourself and describe what happens as sensations in the body with this acceptance or non-acceptance

There is an increased sense of peace or calm. Seeking just seeks, it can't do anything else. So of course it will not stop seeking. It's like wanting a robot called "run" that is designed only to run, to stop running.

What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….."

Attention is brought to the heart area. A bit of vibration. Also after a lot of these I am statements, a very "ill feeling" or "yuk feeling" arose.

What is the body sensation without the add-on of "I am…."?

This was an immediate relief. Much more easy and enjoyable.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The one without the I am did seem more true. It was surprising that the other using "I am" was rejected by the body.

2. What is here without the labels?

Sensations, sights, sounds, thoughts, smells (are those labels?) If they are disregarded, it feels like like beingness.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

It does feel like the labels have an effect.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Yes. More peace without labels!! A sense of relief. Tears almost arose for a second just now.

[Noro]

Hi Colin,

Really great looking. I have replied with pointers here and there even though further down you have shown that you have seen clearly that seeking is happening without any need for there to be an 'owner' of the seeking.

. but no evidence, so just keep checking evidence. I think there is this other doubt that it's by means of self that I cannot find the evidence for it. Should we deconstruct that one somehow?

Yes, keep looking. You are doing your own inner forensic work. No evidence, no guilty party!!
How can you find evidence by means of "self" when you cannot find evidence of that "self" other than as a label or a thought?
These are thoughts!
Doubt is a thought, a mechanism of second-guessing, sometimes linked to a deeper self-critical belief, It implies a 'doer' that can do better.
Does this apply?
However, doubt is not a dead end, it is an invitation to get curious.
Where else can you look other than at thought when doubt is arising?
Look into the body.
How does this feel in the body?
Where in the body?
Is there an emotion, a self-referring belief arising?

What is actually being perceived is like a thought connected to a vibration or something, but that is also a thought. I cannot be sure the sense of self has a location. Yet I am not 100% convinced it doesn't have a location somehow. Well, I can't find it with evidence, so for now, which is all there is, it is not there.

Look deeper into the sensation associated with a sense of self.
Allow yourself to be drawn deeper into the sensations, follow them around if they move.
What is there without the label 'sense of self'?
Is there a boundary that contains the sensation?
Can you be 100% sure that the sensation is even totally contained within the body?

But somehow it feels like a solid thing in there that needs to be evicted! When I really look though, all I find are sensations. Pulses, vibration... but they are not wearing any signs that say "sense of self is here".

That solid thing in there that needs to be evicted!
Is that solid thing still present as a sensation in your body?
If it is, look closer into it. What is it made of actually?
Does it really need to be evicted?

What does the seeking want to find? What do you hope will happen then?
I think it wants to find comfort! Less suffering. THE ANSWER! Progress! Peacefulness and contentedness with what is, ironically. An ability to be peaceful or ecstatic at will, no matter what the situation.

Ahh, those expectations! The desire for Progress!
The idea of progress is totally conceptual.
Seeking is a mechanism looking to divert from or avoid what is.
Look at those seeking thoughts and ask:
"What is it that is preventing me from finding peacefulness and contentedness right now?"
Look into the body, not into the mind. What's in the way IS the way!
Can you be in a body that doesn't feel peaceful or contented?

Can you be in a body where there is always seeking but no seeker to be found?

Yes.

Big smile here! :)

Yes or No, be honest with yourself and describe what happens as sensations in the body with this acceptance or non-acceptance

There is an increased sense of peace or calm. Seeking just seeks, it can't do anything else. So of course it will not stop seeking. It's like wanting a robot called "run" that is designed only to run, to stop running.

Beautiful, you are seeing clearly!

What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….."

Attention is brought to the heart area. A bit of vibration. Also after a lot of these I am statements, a very "ill feeling" or "yuk feeling" arose.

Well spotted. Whenever body sensations show a "yuk" feeling this is pointing away from the truth.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The one without the I am did seem more true. It was surprising that the other using "I am" was rejected by the body.

Wonderful! Isn't it a relief without the extra baggage of ownership!

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

It does feel like the labels have an effect.

OK, ready for the next exercise!


LABEL REALITY CORRELATION RED-GREEN

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'GREEN'' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN?

Love,
Rowena

[72457245]

Where else can you look other than at thought when doubt is arising?
Look into the body.
How does this feel in the body?
Where in the body?
Is there an emotion, a self-referring belief arising?

It feels sort of like a light shaking, I want to say a bit centered in the body but a sense also it could be near the heart. Pretty subtle. It is definitely related to the "rabid seeking", they often rise together. I can't find any emotion other than maybe a certain restlessness or dissatisfaction. I can't find a self-referring belief... but when I feel it, it seems almost identical to what I wrote about seeking before. It is blurry if there is a difference.

What is there without the label 'sense of self'?

Much less. Yes I see the label seems to be bolstering or even making it. Maybe it's just thoughts/concept grouping.

Is there a boundary that contains the sensation?

No.

Can you be 100% sure that the sensation is even totally contained within the body?

I'm not even sure there is a sensation when I remove the label/thought "sense of self".

That solid thing in there that needs to be evicted!

Is that solid thing still present as a sensation in your body?
If it is, look closer into it. What is it made of actually?
Does it really need to be evicted?
[/quote]
I can't find it anymore. Let me try to resurrect it. If I repeat, I am, I am, I am, I expect it to be there. But it's not actually... that seemed to bring a certain stability or less shake to the system. But I cannot find this solid thing I seemed to write about before.

"What is it that is preventing me from finding peacefulness and contentedness right now?"

Extremely long pause. I think this question is very good for me. It brings the peacefulness and contentedness. In the back of my mind, it wants to perk up and say "Because you have pain in your body, and your mind will become restless, and there is more you are not seeing, so you must search to find that.!" But if I just ask the question properly using RIGHT NOW, then the p&c is here.

Look into the body, not into the mind. What's in the way IS the way!

When I look, I find the peace.

Can you be in a body that doesn't feel peaceful or contented?

I guess bodies don't "feel peaceful or contented", they don't have those labels/thoughts. So, no.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
Let me know what is SEEN?

No effect on the color whatsoever.

Thank you, C

[Noro]

Hi Colin,

Nice work!

A couple of points to review.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

It does feel like the labels have an effect.

Please look at the question again.

Can you be in a body that doesn't feel peaceful or contented?

I guess bodies don't "feel peaceful or contented", they don't have those labels/thoughts. So, no.

I will rephrase:I
If you are not feeling peaceful or content in your body right now, can you accept that you are not feeling the way you would like to be feeling, or is there resistance to being with the uncomfortable feelings and a desire to divert from them?


APPLE EXERCISE
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.

When looking at an apple directly there's color; a thought saying "apple" and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is seen for sure (in direct experience?)
Colors are seen, shapes maybe seen and thinking is seen.
What about the content of thought, what do thoughts describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts (including descriptions) about something.
Actual experience is sound, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thinking arising, but not its content.

So is there really an 'apple' here or only color and a thought about 'apple'?
Can 'apple' be found in direct experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in direct experience.


LOOKING AT AN OBJECT
Wherever you are sitting right now, find object to focus on.
Don't pick the object up or turn it around, just look at what can be seen without touching it or turning it.

Now look at it and describe what you see.
Give yourself a bit of time with it, Just look, nothing else.

Now describe the back side of that object.
How is it known what the back side looks like?
What tells what it looks like?
How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?
Can this be known in direct experience?
Can an object be known at all!

Love,
Rowena

[72457245]

Hi Rowena,

Thanks for your encouragement and prompt questioning!

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
It does feel like the labels have an effect.

Okay, no effect.

If you are not feeling peaceful or content in your body right now, can you accept that you are not feeling the way you would like to be feeling, or is there resistance to being with the uncomfortable feelings and a desire to divert from them?

Right now, yes I can accept it. Oftentimes there is a resistance to being with them and desire to divert.

So is there really an 'apple' here or only color and a thought about 'apple'?
Can 'apple' be found in direct experience?

Color and thought in DE.

Now look at it and describe what you see.
Give yourself a bit of time with it, Just look, nothing else.
Now describe the back side of that object.
How is it known what the back side looks like?
What tells what it looks like?
How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?
Can this be known in direct experience?
Can an object be known at all!

There are colors. Backside unknown/non-existent in DE. From this perspective of only DE using sight with touching it, it cannot be known more than a painting can be known as the thing which is painted.

Best, C

[Noro]

Hi Colin,

Great seeing!

Right now, yes I can accept it. Oftentimes there is a resistance to being with them and desire to divert.

Notice diverting happening, this is a great first step. This opens up space for further inquiry, ask yourself:
"What am I diverting from?"
"What am I resisting?" And then,
Bring your attention back into the sensations in the body, notice any sensations of tension and contraction and see if further thoughts and/or beliefs arise. This can be done in 'real time' or afterwards when there is a calm moment.
And celebrate that the mechanism of diversion has been noticed! :)

MEMORY EXERCISE
Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly?

What is the memory ‘made of’?

WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

If there is difference, how is that difference is known exactly?

Love,
Rowena