Looking for 1 on 1

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GotIt
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Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:25 pm

Hi,

I'm looking for a guide.

About me: I've been meditating (insight/Buddhist Vipassana) for 13 years with several years of sitting an hour and a half every morning. I want Stream Entry, and have wanted it ever since I've heard about it (really want to let go of my views/judging mind, and be a nicer person). I want to get to a place where the only thing there is love, total love, no "me" with all of my opinions, beliefs, etc.

Intellectually, I know there is no "self", but I've had no direct experience of there being no "self".

There's some fear of letting go, a fear of what is to come, of the unknown, a fear of letting go of my beliefs and of no longer getting what "I" want in situations. Also in hearing people describe the fear that occurs when letting go of self, there is a fear of that fear.
I want this (to let go of "me" and be able to just be with what is without attaching and clinging) more than anything in the world, though, so you/I have to just let the fear be there, and just be with it (just let it be there without letting it run your/my life, observe the fear. I'm afraid that if I let "me" go I will lose control over things. Just another thing/thought/feeling to be with and let it be there without attaching to it!

Please let me know if there's any other information you need.

Thanks,
Rose

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GotIt
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:31 pm

Thanks for any help I can get in letting go!

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:52 pm

Hi,

I'm looking for a guide.

About me: I've been meditating (insight/Buddhist Vipassana) for 13 years with several years of sitting an hour and a half every morning. I want Stream Entry, and have wanted it ever since I've heard about it (really want to let go of my views/judging mind, and be a nicer person). I want to get to a place where the only thing there is love, total love, no "me" with all of my opinions, beliefs, etc.
Hey, GotIt,
Not to put a dampener on things, but seeing this ( no self) will not necessarily get you to a place where the only thing there is is love. Just so you're clear, this is not about altered mind states, ecstatic neverending bliss, or anything like that. It is simply a realisation, a seeing through of a belief.
Intellectually, I know there is no "self", but I've had no direct experience of there being no "self".
When you say you know it intellectually what do you mean? How do you know you've had no direct experience of there being no self?
I want this (to let go of "me" and be able to just be with what is without attaching and clinging) more than anything in the world
I want Stream Entry, and have wanted it ever since I've heard about it
Regarding the above two quotes, can you tell a little more about why you want these things so much?
I'm afraid that if I let "me" go I will lose control over things.
Take a close look at this sentence. How many "me"'s are there? There seems to be the one that lets go of the me, and the one that is let go of.
"I will lose control over things", so the I has been let go of, yet the I is still there, and it loses control?

Which one of these "I"'s is you? When you think about self, about "I" , what do you mean? Define the self.

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GotIt
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:25 am

Hi,

Thanks for the fast response and the detailed feedback.
...this is not about altered mind states, ecstatic neverending bliss, or anything like that. It is simply a realisation, a seeing through of a belief
Yes, I realize it's not about some altered mind states or never ending bliss or things like that.
When you say you know it intellectually what do you mean? How do you know you've had no direct experience of there being no self?
When I read about the connectedness of all beings, and people's experiences of no-self, I haven't ever had experiences like that. I think what people say about there being no self is true, but I've never felt like I have had direct experience of no "self".
GotIt wrote:
I want this (to let go of "me" and be able to just be with what is without attaching and clinging) more than anything in the world

GotIt wrote:
I want Stream Entry, and have wanted it ever since I've heard about it

Regarding the above two quotes, can you tell a little more about why you want these things so much?
Attaching to wanting something, from my perspective, doesn't work. What does work is wanting something, and working towards it without being attached to the outcome. That being said, I want truth, and want to see things as they really are, and getting rid of my sense of self, the I, me, mine, etc. gets to the truth of what really is and how things really are (They're just things that are happening.). I just realized that "I" get in the way of seeing the truth. "I" with my beliefs, judgments, thoughts, feelings, etc. get in the way of seeing things as they really are.
GotIt wrote:
I'm afraid that if I let "me" go I will lose control over things.

Take a close look at this sentence. How many "me"'s are there? There seems to be the one that lets go of the me, and the one that is let go of.
There seems to be the one that lets go of the me, and the one that is let go of.
That's great! and confusing, meaning it took me a while to get the meaning of what was being said here, but once I got it, it was confusing, which is good (because it confuses the reality of the issue with the facts).
Which one of these "I"'s is you? When you think about self, about "I" , what do you mean? Define the self.
Couldn't "I" be the one letting go of "self"/myself/me, e.g. there's only one I/self letting of itself?

When I think about self, about I I mean that person/being who wants what they want, who is attached to certain desires, beliefs and ideas, who picks up feelings in response to events (e.g. who let's feelings come in in response to events--I'm angry, I'm sad, etc.).
Who or what is this "self" that I think that "I" am? There I go again with the double "I's". If I am the one doing the thinking then who's receiving the thoughts (am I thinking them and also receiving them, but there's only one "I".

From dictionary.com self is a persons "nature"/"character", but this isn't right because there is no nature or character to a person, there is only a person being and doing who they are and what they do.

My definition of self (I'm finding it hard to define self.): Self is a character that I think I am, it's a belief system that I've built up (I want to say made up) around who I think I am. My belief about the self that I see myself as gives me groundedness. The groundedness makes me feel like I have an anchor to hold on to (I have no idea why I feel I need this anchor.). Self is that person I've put together to feel safe, and to avoid having to "just be" or something like that.

Question: working with someone one on one, how long does it usually take for someone to get liberated?

Thanks.

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:40 am


When I read about the connectedness of all beings, and people's experiences of no-self, I haven't ever had experiences like that. I think what people say about there being no self is true, but I've never felt like I have had direct experience of no "self".
It seems like you are going about it backwards. You are saying, If I can just have an experience of the connectedness of all beings, then I will be seeing no self. instead of looking at the truth of no self, which may or may not bring experiences of connectedness of all beings.
Remember, this is not about having specific experiences. You say you know this but it seems clear that you are looking for experiences based on what you have read.
Drop the expectations, drop the search for special experiences, and start looking at reality, at the truth of no self.
When I think about self, about I I mean that person/being who wants what they want, who is attached to certain desires, beliefs and ideas, who picks up feelings in response to events (e.g. who let's feelings come in in response to events--I'm angry, I'm sad, etc.).
Ok, start to look at this. Do you let feelings come in in response to events? Or do feelings come in anyway, whether you ask them to or not? Think of something, some thought, some memory that usually causes you emotional pain. Are you choosing which emotion comes up in response to the memory? Or does it just come in automatically? The thought, followed by emotion. Is there a you there going "I think this time I will feel guilt"?
This is where you need to look, rather than think about what is happening. So, look at reality, look at how the emotions occur, and look to see if there is a "you" that is doing it, choosing it.
Who or what is this "self" that I think that "I" am? There I go again with the double "I's". If I am the one doing the thinking then who's receiving the thoughts (am I thinking them and also receiving them, but there's only one "I".
Another good area for investigation. Are you thinking thoughts? Are you receiving them? Can you choose your next thought? Is there a "you" that is thinking , or do thoughts appear fully formed, and then disappear?
Again, thinking about this will get you nowhere. You need to spend some time looking at thoughts as they rise, and seeing if you can find the "I" that does them. You will no doubt lose track, and get caught up in chains of thought. But when you remember, you can start looking again. Not at the contents of thoughts, but at the thoughts themselves.
My definition of self (I'm finding it hard to define self.): Self is a character that I think I am, it's a belief system that I've built up (I want to say made up) around who I think I am. My belief about the self that I see myself as gives me groundedness. The groundedness makes me feel like I have an anchor to hold on to (I have no idea why I feel I need this anchor.). Self is that person I've put together to feel safe, and to avoid having to "just be" or something like that.
Are your beliefs about self true? Is your version of events the true one? Are your memories always real and truthful? If you asked 2 people to tell your story, would both stories be the same?

What would having to "just be" be like?


Question: working with someone one on one, how long does it usually take for someone to get liberated?

Thanks.
Irrelevant.

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GotIt
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:44 pm

Drop the expectations, drop the search for special experiences, and start looking at reality, at the truth of no self.
Thanks. I'll do that.
Do you let feelings come in in response to events? Or do feelings come in anyway, whether you ask them to or not? Think of something, some thought, some memory that usually causes you emotional pain. Are you choosing which emotion comes up in response to the memory? Or does it just come in automatically? The thought, followed by emotion. Is there a you there going "I think this time I will feel guilt"?
This is where you need to look, rather than think about what is happening. So, look at reality, look at how the emotions occur, and look to see if there is a "you" that is doing it, choosing it.
Feelings come automatically. I have no idea why they come like they do, e.g. a sad emotion comes in response to a sad event. I can't make a happy emotion come in response to a sad event. I can't make any emotions come. They just show up on their own.
Another good area for investigation. Are you thinking thoughts? Are you receiving them? Can you choose your next thought? Is there a "you" that is thinking , or do thoughts appear fully formed, and then disappear?
Again, thinking about this will get you nowhere. You need to spend some time looking at thoughts as they rise, and seeing if you can find the "I" that does them. You will no doubt lose track, and get caught up in chains of thought. But when you remember, you can start looking again. Not at the contents of thoughts, but at the thoughts themselves.
I'm receiving thoughts. They come on their own. Even if I sit down to make plans, think something out, etc. I can't decide which thoughts to have. I may decide to e.g. plan my vacation and will think about things like where to go, where to stay, etc., but none of the thoughts that come up around this are planned or chosen by me. Thoughts appear fully formed like clouds that just appear in the sky and move on. I can decide I want to think about a certain kind of cloud, but I get what I get when the e.g. cumulus cloud thoughts show up in my mind. I can't control the weather, and I can't control the thoughts.
Are your beliefs about self true? Is your version of events the true one? Are your memories always real and truthful? If you asked 2 people to tell your story, would both stories be the same?

What would having to "just be" be like?
My beliefs about self aren't true. I guess I think I'm one way (like being a decent driver, or a nice person) and other people see me another way (like not being a good driver, driving too fast, not always being a nice person, etc.). At what point did I decide my beliefs about myself and why, and can I let go of those beliefs (of there being a self who is defined in this way)--I'm thinking out loud to myself here! No, my version of events isn't the true one/the only one and even if another person and I have the same version of an event, we differ on our interpretation of the event. My memories are always real because I've decided I want them to be, but that doesn't make them real. It just makes them what I've decided. They aren't always truthful, as I see and believe what I want to see and believe. If I asked two people to tell my story they wouldn't be the same. If I asked a million people to tell my story, they would all be different, and would be told from their own perspectives (just like I tell my own story from my perspective, the perspective that I've decided is the right/correct one--even though it's just a perspective and isn't necessarily right or wrong).

Having to "just be" would be like not attaching or clinging to anything that comes along, like not grasping any thoughts that occur and trying to own them as "mine/me/I". It would mean just letting things be as they are without trying to make them be the way I want them to be, without trying to make the story be the way I want the story to be and just letting the story be the way it is. When I think about it, I think I'm resisting letting things be just the way they are without putting "my" story on them.
There's a feeling of if I let go of holding on and let things just be, then my influence on things will disappear. What would happen if I gave up "my" story of how things are?--me thinking out loud again!

I also think having to "just be" could be relaxing as you let go of the "self" that is attached to getting/having specific outcomes related to events.

What would having to "just be" be like: You wouldn't have to "just be" it would be a state of being that just is, without you having to anything, without any "having" attached to it. Right now, I think I "have" to have in having a self, like there's no freedom as I've attached to "my" thoughts, feelings, etc. as "mine" (when they aren't). But why do I "have" to--me thinking out loud again! As Neel says, keep looking for the truth of no self! What is it that compels me to have a self, when there's no self there to do the compelling?--me thinking out loud again.

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:28 pm


Feelings come automatically. I have no idea why they come like they do, e.g. a sad emotion comes in response to a sad event. I can't make a happy emotion come in response to a sad event. I can't make any emotions come. They just show up on their own.
Ok, so do you see that you arent "doing" the emotions? that they are automatic responses to thoughts and events?


I'm receiving thoughts. They come on their own. Even if I sit down to make plans, think something out, etc. I can't decide which thoughts to have. I may decide to e.g. plan my vacation and will think about things like where to go, where to stay, etc., but none of the thoughts that come up around this are planned or chosen by me. Thoughts appear fully formed like clouds that just appear in the sky and move on. I can decide I want to think about a certain kind of cloud, but I get what I get when the e.g. cumulus cloud thoughts show up in my mind. I can't control the weather, and I can't control the thoughts.
Is this what you have seen for yourself, or is it something you have read? I ask because the weather analogy is something quite common in no self literature. You need to be really honest in this investigation. If you still have a subtle belief that you are thinking the thoughts, then say so.
I'm receiving thoughts.
So the self, the you, is the one that is receiving thoughts?
At what point did I decide my beliefs about myself and why, and can I let go of those beliefs (of there being a self who is defined in this way)
In the same way that you looked to see if you were "doing" the emotions, or thinking the thoughts, look and see if there is a you that is having the beliefs. How do they manifest themselves? How do you know what your beliefs are?
Having to "just be" would be like not attaching or clinging to anything that comes along, like not grasping any thoughts that occur and trying to own them as "mine/me/I". It would mean just letting things be as they are
Everything is already being as it is

without trying to make them be the way I want them to be, without trying to make the story be the way I want the story to be and just letting the story be the way it is.
You trying to make things be the way you want them to be, is a part of everything already being as it is.
What would happen if I gave up "my" story of how things are?
Yes, what would happen if you gave up your story of how things are?

I've attached to "my" thoughts, feelings, etc. as "mine" (when they aren't)
what is it that is attaching to the thoughts and feelings? When a thought comes up, what is it that makes you think its yours?

I get the feeling that although you may have a vague intellectual idea of what this is about, you are a bit hazy on the main point.

There is no you, anywhere, and never has been.

This means that there is no you to attach , or not attach, to thoughts and feelings. No you to be liberated. No you to receive thoughts. No you to have, or give up, a story. None at all, anywhere.

What comes up for you, thoughts, feelings etc, when you read this?

Btw, Im not asking you to just believe it. I am trying to point you to where you can have direct experience of no self. You say that you havent directly experienced it, yet you say that you see that you are not doing thoughts.

Seeing that thoughts come up themselves, and that theres no-one doing them, is direct experience of no self.

Seeing that you are not doing, not having emotions,that they are automatic responses to thoughts and events, is direct experience of no self.

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GotIt
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:02 pm

Ok, so do you see that you arent "doing" the emotions? that they are automatic responses to thoughts and events?
If I look at emotions, I know that e.g. I don't make myself sad in response to a sad event. I still don't see that I'm not “doing” the emotions, although I'm looking to see that. There is no “self” creating the emotions. They just happen.
Is this what you have seen for yourself, or is it something you have read? I ask because the weather analogy is something quite common in no self literature. You need to be really honest in this investigation. If you still have a subtle belief that you are thinking the thoughts, then say so.
When I think about it, I know that thoughts just appear on their own. That being said, I still think I believe I am thinking the the thoughts (along with creating emotions). I haven't let go of “me”. I'm trying to directly see/feel/know that thoughts (and emotions are not something I am in control of. I can think about thoughts and emotions all I want, but I can't make them be what I want them to be or make them come or go or be a certain way, just like I can think about rain, but I can't make it rain (the cloud thing above just came to me yesterday, and I've heard it a lot with regards to meditation with regards to sitting and just letting the thoughts come and go like clouds moving in the sky.
Every time I get questions from you it forces me (okay, there's no one forcing me, but I want to) to think about things and then I can see that there is nothing there. The questions are good as they help me look at things.
So the self, the you, is the one that is receiving thoughts?
There's the catch. If the self, the me is receiving thoughts, then how can I both make them and receive them since there's only one of me? There's no throwing/sending/creating and catching/receiving of thoughts. A thought just comes on it's own, you don't receive it. It's just there. There's no one making up/creating the thoughts and there's no one receiving the thoughts.
In the same way that you looked to see if you were "doing" the emotions, or thinking the thoughts, look and see if there is a you that is having the beliefs. How do they manifest themselves? How do you know what your beliefs are?
My beliefs about myself are different than others beliefs about me, which says to me that my beliefs are unstable. If they were stable, then they would be the same for everyone, me, my friends, everyone who knows me would have the same beliefs about who I am.
I don't know how you know what your beliefs are. Do “I” have beliefs? I guess I do, if I think that “I” exist. Who decided how “I” am defined? Who decided that “I” am defined in this way? Why didn't “I” decide to define my “self” in a different way? Who decided that “I” exist?
You trying to make things be the way you want them to be, is a part of everything already being as it is.
Okay.
Yes, what would happen if you gave up your story of how things are?
There would be nothing to hold onto. No anchor for this boat. It's like a river that's going where it wants to go (thoughts and feelings come and go on their own). “I'm” standing on the side of the river trying to make it go where I want it to go. What would happen if I just jumped into the river and stopped trying to make it go where “I” want it to go? How do “I” stop my “self” from trying to direct the river? How do I get my “self” to see that “I” can't direct the river, and, in fact, there is no “me” trying to direct it? “I” can't direct it because it (thoughts, feelings, etc.) come and go on their own so where is the “I” in all of this? If you can see that the rivers flowing on it's own, then what's the point of an “I”?

If someone says something to you and the feeling of anger comes up, and you yell at them, can you instead watch the anger come up (You can't control it. It comes up on it's own.), and then not respond (e.g. not yell at the person)--Actually, there is no “you” to do the responding. I need to keep looking to see that there is no “me” to respond. If the feelings and emotions come up on their own, then were is the response coming from? Is there anyone there who decides to yell at the person in response to the thing they said and anger came up in you? The anger and the thoughts aren't you, and if they're not you, then who is you, or is there even a “you” to be there/to respond?
what is it that is attaching to the thoughts and feelings? When a thought comes up, what is it that makes you think its yours?
I have no idea what makes me think it's mine. I need to keep looking at that to see that there is no “me”.
I get the feeling that although you may have a vague intellectual idea of what this is about, you are a bit hazy on the main point.
This is definitely true (“spot on”).

There is no you, anywhere, and never has been.
This means that there is no you to attach , or not attach, to thoughts and feelings. No you to be liberated. No you to receive thoughts. No you to have, or give up, a story. None at all, anywhere.

What comes up for you, thoughts, feelings etc, when you read this?


“No you to be liberated”--that feels weird to me. I know intellectually that it's true, but I haven't had direct experience of it.
Btw, Im not asking you to just believe it. I am trying to point you to where you can have direct experience of no self.
Thanks! That's what I want.
You say that you havent directly experienced it, yet you say that you see that you are not doing thoughts.

Seeing that thoughts come up themselves, and that theres no-one doing them, is direct experience of no self.

Seeing that you are not doing, not having emotions,that they are automatic responses to thoughts and events, is direct experience of no self.
I need to keep looking at both thoughts and feelings to keep seeing that there is no “I” behind them, no one doing them.

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:05 pm


My beliefs about myself are different than others beliefs about me, which says to me that my beliefs are unstable. If they were stable, then they would be the same for everyone, me, my friends, everyone who knows me would have the same beliefs about who I am.
I don't know how you know what your beliefs are. Do “I” have beliefs? I guess I do, if I think that “I” exist. Who decided how “I” am defined? Who decided that “I” am defined in this way? Why didn't “I” decide to define my “self” in a different way? Who decided that “I” exist?
I would suggest that your beliefs show up in your thoughts and actions. For example, If someone walks in front of you in the street, and the thought "Stupid bastard" comes up, and maybe you swear at them, either loudly or under your breath, then this could imply that you believe that people shouldnt step in front of you in the street, and that they are stupid for doing so, that your passage down the street is much more important than theirs, and so they should stay the hell out of your way.

Yes, what would happen if you gave up your story of how things are?
There would be nothing to hold onto. No anchor for this boat. It's like a river that's going where it wants to go (thoughts and feelings come and go on their own). “I'm” standing on the side of the river trying to make it go where I want it to go. What would happen if I just jumped into the river and stopped trying to make it go where “I” want it to go? How do “I” stop my “self” from trying to direct the river? How do I get my “self” to see that “I” can't direct the river, and, in fact, there is no “me” trying to direct it? “I” can't direct it because it (thoughts, feelings, etc.) come and go on their own so where is the “I” in all of this? If you can see that the rivers flowing on it's own, then what's the point of an “I”?
There is already no-one directing the river. You are already in the river, being pulled along. You just dont know it.
How do you see it? By looking at reality, and seeing that what you believed was true( that theres a you thats able to direct the river) is in fact not true at all.

For example, look at how things happen throughout the day. Note how much of your actions seem directed, and how much just seem to happen. When you walk down the street, are you directing your legs, telling them when to step, which muscle to contract, where to place the foot? Or is it happening naturally and spontaneously. Maybe you've been walking for a while lost in thought, and you find yourself 3 blocks further down the street without being aware exactly how you got there. So how did you get there?
When you go into a shop, are you controlling and directing everything, or is it just automatic, select item, go to counter, put hand in pocket, pay shopkeeper, smile, walk out shop.
Raise your right arm. How did you do that? Did you control every muscle, in the correct order?
If you are playing a sport, how are you controlling all the body in split second co-ordination?
Notice how often you are "present" during an activity, and how often minutes or hours have past without realising it.
If someone says something to you and the feeling of anger comes up, and you yell at them, can you instead watch the anger come up (You can't control it. It comes up on it's own.), and then not respond (e.g. not yell at the person)--Actually, there is no “you” to do the responding. I need to keep looking to see that there is no “me” to respond. If the feelings and emotions come up on their own, then were is the response coming from? Is there anyone there who decides to yell at the person in response to the thing they said and anger came up in you? The anger and the thoughts aren't you, and if they're not you, then who is you, or is there even a “you” to be there/to respond?
These are all really good questions. Only you can find the answer to them, not by thinking about it, but by looking. Thinking about it is going to get you nowhere.

I have no idea what makes me think it's mine. I need to keep looking at that to see that there is no “me”.
Exactly. Do you know how to look, what you are looking at?

I need to keep looking at both thoughts and feelings to keep seeing that there is no “I” behind them, no one doing them.
Yes! Do you know how to do this?

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GotIt
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:07 am

I would suggest that your beliefs show up in your thoughts and actions. For example, If someone walks in front of you in the street, and the thought "Stupid bastard" comes up, and maybe you swear at them, either loudly or under your breath, then this could imply that you believe that people shouldnt step in front of you in the street, and that they are stupid for doing so, that your passage down the street is much more important than theirs, and so they should stay the hell out of your way. 
Do my beliefs of a “self” show up in my thoughts and actions? I don't know, I don't think so, but off the top of my head, I'd have to say yes, because I think I'm hot dinged! That I'm more important than everyone else (my passage down the street is much more important, as is everything else I do!).
There is already no-one directing the river. You are already in the river, being pulled along. You just dont know it.
How do you see it? By looking at reality, and seeing that what you believed was true( that theres a you thats able to direct the river) is in fact not true at all.

For example, look at how things happen throughout the day. Note how much of your actions seem directed, and how much just seem to happen. When you walk down the street, are you directing your legs, telling them when to step, which muscle to contract, where to place the foot? Or is it happening naturally and spontaneously. Maybe you've been walking for a while lost in thought, and you find yourself 3 blocks further down the street without being aware exactly how you got there. So how did you get there?
When you go into a shop, are you controlling and directing everything, or is it just automatic, select item, go to counter, put hand in pocket, pay shopkeeper, smile, walk out shop.
Raise your right arm. How did you do that? Did you control every muscle, in the correct order? 
If you are playing a sport, how are you controlling all the body in split second co-ordination?
Notice how often you are "present" during an activity, and how often minutes or hours have past without realising it.
I understand how my actions such as walking aren't governed by me, but what about things like deciding to go to the grocery store and deciding what to buy. Don't “I” control those (or is there no “I” to even control those things, and do they only happen based on things like my body liking certain foods, or wanting certain things)?
These are all really good questions. Only you can find the answer to them, not by thinking about it, but by looking. Thinking about it is going to get you nowhere.
I guess I have to slow down and pay attention to what happens when/as I respond to things and really pay attention to what's going on and who (if anyone) is doing the doing.
Exactly. Do you know how to look, what you are looking at?
I think I'm looking to see what's behind things, to see the “me” that really isn't there, the “me” that I will find doesn't exist.
Yes! Do you know how to do this?
How do I do this?

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:34 am


I understand how my actions such as walking aren't governed by me, but what about things like deciding to go to the grocery store and deciding what to buy. Don't “I” control those (or is there no “I” to even control those things, and do they only happen based on things like my body liking certain foods, or wanting certain things)?
Look and see. Watch the internal dialog. Is it a you thats deciding, or is it just a stream of thoughts. "I need to go to the shop" "Ill go in a bit" "what do I need to get" "I want some chocolate" . Are you doing any of it?
Is there anything there other than a stream of sensations and thoughts?

When you are hungry, is there a you that is hungry, or are there just hungry signals? Are you doing them?

dont just dismiss watching things like how walking happens either. You say you understand how walking isnt governed by you, but have you really observed it, seen how naturally and easily it happens? How you can get to your destination without really being "present"?

Ive already asked you this, but maybe you missed it. Raise your right arm. How did you do it? How did it happen?
Yes! Do you know how to do this?
How do I do this?
By looking at reality, and seeing that what you believed was true( that theres a you that is doing everything) is in fact not true at all.

You assume, have always assumed, that you are thinking your thoughts. So observe your thoughts, and see if you can detect the source, where they come from. Throughout the day, watch thoughts come and go.

Observe how some thoughts seem personal. What makes them personal? Does the thought "I did this" or "I want that" come from an self? Note how often a "personal" thought occurs.

Watch what triggers a thought. This may be simpler in some instances than others. For example, you may see a photo of your girlfriend, or family member , or whatever, and you can notice that a thought appears about them, or a memory of the last time you saw them. Each time you notice the trigger, look and see if there is a you that thought the thought.

Observe how much time during the day you spend lost in trains of thought. As you are walking down the street,or making dinner, or whatever, are you paying attention to whats around you, and what you are doing, or are you following endless trains of thought about all sorts of things? Are any of these trains of thought caused by a you? Does 1 thought follow another, sometimes logically, sometimes not so logically?

Try and predict your next thought. Is the prediction also a thought? does the prediction thought trigger a thought about what you predicted you would think about?
Notice how sometimes seemingly random thoughts about stuff will pop up, and you will go "why did I think of that". Sometimes you will be able to see what the trigger was, most times not.

Think of something random. How easy is it? Is the thought that comes up truely random? Do you have a stock set of "random" thoughts? Observe how a whole lot of quick thoughts pop up, until one is chosen as "random"
Observe how the mind searches for a thought it can call random, and how it sometimes needs to use objects in the field of view to trigger the thought. Are any of the thoughts that come up claiming to be random coming from a self, a you? Is it you that is selecting the random thought?

Most important is to always look for the source of thoughts. Can you find it? Is it you?

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GotIt
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:21 am

Look and see. Watch the internal dialog. Is it a you thats deciding, or is it just a stream of thoughts. "I need to go to the shop" "Ill go in a bit" "what do I need to get" "I want some chocolate" . Are you doing any of it?
Is there anything there other than a stream of sensations and thoughts?

When you are hungry, is there a you that is hungry, or are there just hungry signals? Are you doing them?

dont just dismiss watching things like how walking happens either. You say you understand how walking isnt governed by you, but have you really observed it, seen how naturally and easily it happens? How you can get to your destination without really being "present"?

Ive already asked you this, but maybe you missed it. Raise your right arm. How did you do it? How did it happen?
I've been watching things and am trying to see things from within the river rather than from without and looking in (the thinking stuff, stop thinking about it, but, rather, just be with it).
Where does the deciding to go to the grocery store come from? Who does the deciding to go? Who decides to go to the grocery store? Is there a decider? (If there's no decider, then why do I go? I don't know the answer to this one.)--me thinking out loud again. I don't think there's anybody doing any of it, and I'm looking to see that truth.
Getting to my destination without being present just happens (maybe going to the grocery store, just happens and there's no "why do I go" about it. I don't know.).
I think you can do a lot of things without really being present.

Yes, I'll keep watching walking and things like that.

When I'm hungry, there are just hungry signals, just those physical feelings of hunger. If I didn't have those physical feelings, there would be nothing and no one to tell me I'm hungry.

As for raising my right arm, the first thing that came to mind is that I raised it because you told me to do it. How did I do it? How did it happen? It happens on it's own. "I" can't control my arm. In this instance it just went up on it's own before I could even think about whether or not I wanted to follow your instructions. I read your instructions. I thought about it briefly, but not long enough to think it through and say no to it, and then my arm went up on it's own (In the middle of typing the last part, I was going to go back and redo what I said to say "and then I raised my arm". I didn't rewrite it, but left my original thought which is definitely more accurate even if I haven't totally experienced it yet.).

If my body parts live and move and have their being on their own without a "self" directing them, then maybe the rest of me does to. Me thinking out loud again.
By looking at reality, and seeing that what you believed was true( that theres a you that is doing everything) is in fact not true at all.

You assume, have always assumed, that you are thinking your thoughts. So observe your thoughts, and see if you can detect the source, where they come from. Throughout the day, watch thoughts come and go.

Observe how some thoughts seem personal. What makes them personal? Does the thought "I did this" or "I want that" come from an self? Note how often a "personal" thought occurs.

Watch what triggers a thought. This may be simpler in some instances than others. For example, you may see a photo of your girlfriend, or family member , or whatever, and you can notice that a thought appears about them, or a memory of the last time you saw them. Each time you notice the trigger, look and see if there is a you that thought the thought.

Observe how much time during the day you spend lost in trains of thought. As you are walking down the street,or making dinner, or whatever, are you paying attention to whats around you, and what you are doing, or are you following endless trains of thought about all sorts of things? Are any of these trains of thought caused by a you? Does 1 thought follow another, sometimes logically, sometimes not so logically?

Try and predict your next thought. Is the prediction also a thought? does the prediction thought trigger a thought about what you predicted you would think about?
Notice how sometimes seemingly random thoughts about stuff will pop up, and you will go "why did I think of that". Sometimes you will be able to see what the trigger was, most times not.

Think of something random. How easy is it? Is the thought that comes up truely random? Do you have a stock set of "random" thoughts? Observe how a whole lot of quick thoughts pop up, until one is chosen as "random"
Observe how the mind searches for a thought it can call random, and how it sometimes needs to use objects in the field of view to trigger the thought. Are any of the thoughts that come up claiming to be random coming from a self, a you? Is it you that is selecting the random thought?

Most important is to always look for the source of thoughts. Can you find it? Is it you?
Does the thought "I did this" or "I want that" come from an self?


No, but I need to look into this to really see it. I need to work on looking and seeing if there is a "me" that thinks a thought.

Lots of time during the day I'm lost in a train of thought and none of them is caused by me. They're just random, and they come randomly. They just come when they come. I don't decide to make them come. I don't own them or control them (I probably don't own or control any of my thoughts, and I'll keep looking to find this out.).

It's hard, if not impossible to predict my next thought. When I think about it, I'm thinking through ideas of what to think about next and picking up an idea that I will think about, but then it's not a prediction, it's more like planning.

I don't think there is any random thinking (Random thoughts come up on their own, but "I" can't make something randomly come up). It's hard, if not impossible, to think of something random (My mind won't let me do that, or it doesn't work that way or something, which tells me that there's no "I" in any random thoughts.).

I'm going to keep looking for the source of thoughts. I don't think I'll find anything or anyone or a "me" that is thinking them. Off to look and try to be in the river looking.

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:34 pm

Keep me updated with how your looking goes.

Btw, just a small thing, you say
Off to look and try to be in the river looking.
This implies that there is something you can do to be in the river. This is the wrong way of looking at it. There is nothing you can do to get into the river, you are already there. All you can do is look and see if its true. The idea that there is some action you can do, or some mind state that you can generate, that will get you in the river is misleading.

So look at how everything flows, thoughts, sensations, actions, everything. Is it all already happening without you doing any of it?

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GotIt
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:46 pm

On of the things I'm finding when I'm looking is that when I try to look at thoughts, it's all past tense. If I decide I'm going to look at thoughts or a thought, it always a thought that has already happened. I can't look at the thoughts as they happen. There's no me looking at them as they happen, but rather a me looking at them after they have already arisen on their own.

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:15 pm

On of the things I'm finding when I'm looking is that when I try to look at thoughts, it's all past tense. If I decide I'm going to look at thoughts or a thought, it always a thought that has already happened. I can't look at the thoughts as they happen. There's no me looking at them as they happen, but rather a me looking at them after they have already arisen on their own.
Good noticing. Go further, keep looking. Spend as much time as you can looking at how thoughts, emotions, and actions happen

Another thing to look at, now you see that the thought has already happened , and they rise up fully formed, see if it is a you looking at them after they have already arisen on their own.


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