Looking for others on this path

[KarenM]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is that because of the subjective nature of experience, the self is not a fixed constant that represents any absolute truth, but rather is determined by unique experiences of the body within which the "self" is contained.

What are you looking for at LU?
I just had a session with an enlightened being named Eshwar Segobind and he referred me here after my conversation with him. I am eager to learn how to live in the world without attachment to the self, and I'm looking for others who are similarly curious. I don't have a single contact within my personal circle that embraces the path of awakening and I would like to find a community of other like-minded people. I have studied a lot of spiritual content and have absorbed the teachings of many others, this seems like perhaps the final leg of my journey. There are still many concepts I'm trying to wrap my head around, but they're slowly starting to take hold, and I wish to nurture that.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm looking for someone further along the path who can share their experience and wisdom with me, someone who can help me identify old egoic patterns that haven't served me and help me release them, and someone who can answer my questions as they arise in this process. When I find spiritual circles, on Facebook or Insight Timer, they always feel like they are full of people who have agendas to protect their own ego, and I hope to find someone who has really gotten past that need to appear a certain way and operates from a place of unconditional love rather than self-serving motives.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
On January 1st, 2024, I woke up in the middle of the night to racing, negative thoughts. In that moment, I decided to try something new. I let the thoughts be. I didn't resist or fight them, I just allowed them, held them with compassion, and gave them space rather than judgement. In an instant, something seemed to shift. For the first time, I understood self-love. I understood that what I had been seeking outside of me was always here. For the next 48 hours or so, I felt total belonging and acceptance, and my previously held imposter syndrome disappeared. I have learned that that is my natural state and that I have been blocking it for all these years. I can't unsee what I've seen, but this state has been difficult to rekindle. I have been on a spiritual path for a while, waiting for my awakening, reading Tolle, Singer, Panache Desai, Anita Moorjani, Joe Dispenza, Abraham Hicks, Deepak Chopra and Neale Donald Walsch. I follow YouTubers who interview enlightened masters like Mooji and Sadhguru. I am a student of Teal Swan. For a time I attended the Self Realization Fellowhip founded by Yogananda. I have done seminars, retreats and conferences aimed at personal and spiritual development. I am starting to regularly practice breathwork and meditation. All of these practices, I believe, allowed me to have this moment of clarity, and I'm committed to continuing on this path.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

There are still many concepts I'm trying to wrap my head around, but they're slowly starting to take hold, and I wish to nurture that.

To begin with, you can stop that right now. Thinking is not the answer. It is the problem. Ignore concepts & LOOK. The pointers given here will help you to do that.

See my signature line below.


My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,

[KarenM]

Hi Stacy,

Thank you so much for your response. I would love for you to be my guide, but I do travel from time to time and do anticipate days when I won't be on my devices. For example next weekend being the Lunar New Year, which my family celebrates, we will be heading out of town and moving around a bit and I can't be sure how the days will unfold. I also may be attending an Eckhart Tolle retreat in May as I seek his guidance as part of the path.

I'm Karen and I'm in Pacific Standard Time. (California)

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

I don't think life can change. It is what it is. My life? I don't expect change other than to have a better relationship with thoughts. To be more adept at not making them a problem, as Ilona has said. What will be different is that my senses will be sharpened as I rely on them more than my thinking. Nothing is missing. Everything is as it should be.

If you think it's problematic that I won't be available every day, I understand! I am reading the Gateless Gatecrashers book and joining the Facebook group, looking into YouTube posts etc. to guide me as well so I am getting a sense of things.

I'm very grateful you took the time to answer me! Thank you.
Karen

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, Karen,

Your welcome. I think this will be fine.

Next question:

What comes up when reading that there is no self, never has been and never will be? That it was all made up story?

Loving,

[KarenM]

Hi Stacy,

Thank you for offering to help me!

What comes up when reading that there is no self, never has been and never will be? That it was all made up story?

I feel relief to learn others know this, too.

You see, I've known this for decades. One of my first courses in university was "The Social Construction of The Self". It was about how who you think you are only depends on the environment you come up in, that it is not a fixed reality, it's a program. And I've studied a lot of spiritual teachers' contributions who say the same but use different language. So this is knowledge I'd already accepted.

Where I am still needing freedom is around how not to become a nihilist; now that I'm becoming more comfortable with understanding that life lives me, not the other way around. Do I continue to reach for my goals, learn new things, love myself and people around me, experience joy and beauty, when it's all fixed and I have no part in it, as there is no "me"? Basically, should I just give up on living, as nothing matters and all is fixed anyway? I don't mean this is a literal way, that I plan any self harm, just to clarify.

Thank you for your time!
Karen

[Anastacia42]

Hi Karen,

I hear you about the nihilism. For "me" I just put one foot in front of the other & don't worry about it. There are support groups that meet on Zoom. Feel free to go to any or all of them.

There are 3 meetings.

Vince Shubert runs one on the weekends. Write to vinceschubert@gmail.com for the link & schedule.

Luchana & Lubo run one on Thursdays. Write to Luchana at luchanauzunova@gmail.com

Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Write admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link & schedule

Okay, so your next pointer:

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[KarenM]

Hi Stacy!

Thank you - I hear you. It's comforting to sense your connecting to my experience. And thank you for the support group info! I will write to them all.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I understand your sock example. It is clear.

What delights me is seeing how all the "spiritual paths" I've dipped my toe in seem to circle around a common center. When everyone is pointing in the same direction, I feel a release of tension. Again, a sort of camaraderie as we all realize how to live as no-self together.

Your talk of using the senses reminds me of a class I took on trauma. Weeks and weeks of just experiencing the senses and writing about them. What do you see, taste, hear, feel, and all with the ultimate goal of relaxing the nervous system to reconnect with the state before the trauma set in. Like a baby.

Is this akin to a mindfulness practice, then? Where, moment to moment, we use the senses to experience rather than needing a narrative around it? Releasing labels? Once we stop calling it a tree, it's a totally different thing than what we thought. I teach mindful eating. You just notice the textures, tastes, smells, the hunger before you start and fullness once you're done.

And as I thought more about the nihilism bit, I think that even if we knew nothing meant anything and we don't choose any of it, we'd still have some impulse to act, but we would just trust our actions couldn't be anything else than what they are, and let go of regret or guilt.

I will seek to experience as much as I can.

Thanks again for your time!
Karen

[Anastacia42]

Yes, it sounds like you've had some practice already.

we'd still have some impulse to act, but we would just trust our actions couldn't be anything else than what they are, and let go of regret or guilt.

Please try this:


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[KarenM]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Putting on my eyebrows:
Seeing the small brown cylindrical bottle - image/color
Smelling the plastic laden scent of the brow gel - smell
Feeling the course bristles against my brow, feeling it is cool - sensation
Hearing the cars outside my window while I worked at this - sound
Watching the color be deposited - thoughts on trying to keep it even and smooth - thoughts
I did not taste this experience. :-)

Lighting a candle:
Seeing the little sticks in a tiny blue and red box - image/color
Smelling the pungency of the chemicals that ignite with lighting the match - smell
Hearing the crackle of the wick as it catches on fire - sound
Feeling the warmth of the flame near my hand - sensation
An emotion emerges before a thought - comfort, enjoyment, familiarity - THEN the thought about what I associate with lighting a candle

Stirring Zoodles on the stove:
Seeing the strings of spirilized, green zucchini filling the pan with oil and pepper - image/color
Smelling the aroma of the cooking oil - smell
Hearing the sizzle of the zoodles as they fry - sound
Feeling their crispness beneath my wooden spatula, noting how they soften - sensation
Tasting the zoodles - taste
Thoughts about cooking in general, eating, what must be done by night's end - thought

For a few moments I noticed how the world around me seems to disappear when I focus on the experiences in front of me. I notice how thought stops when I focus on the senses.

Thank you,
Karen

[Anastacia42]

These are great, Karen. Notice something about this one:

An emotion emerges before a thought - comfort, enjoyment, familiarity - THEN the thought about what I associate with lighting a candle

What 2 pieces make up an "emotion?"

Loving,

[KarenM]

What 2 pieces make up an "emotion?"

I suppose it depends on whose definition you espouse? There's not one agreed upon meaning for the word, but I would assert that it requires established neural pathways that have been laid down to create a memory, and a bodily response to the memory. Emotions are often unconscious. In my candle example, I felt like my blood pressure lowered, my heart rate slowed, my shoulders relaxed, and peace was present. Reflecting on it, I am aware that I always light candles when I'm going to engage in self-care - take a bath, meditate, curl up in bed with a book, journal - so I know that program exists in my brain already and I get the physical response associated therewith.

Thank you!
Karen

[Anastacia42]

No.

That reply is nothing but thoughts.

Do you remember this?

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

It even includes the definition of emotions in term of Direct Actual Experience.

Check. All emotions boil down to Sensation & thought stories. Can you see this?

Loving,
Loving,

[KarenM]

Can you see this?

Yup! Sorry my answer wasn't so clear - I was trying to describe the sensation - the sense of calm in my physical body - how would you describe these sensations - tension leaving, relaxation of muscles, beating heart? Even describing direct experience requires thought as language is thought. And I guess you could call a memory a thought story, yet the thought wasn't there, just the feeling of what it brought into my awareness was there. But I guess it's semantics? Maybe you'd call memory thought, that's fair.

Thanks!
Karen

[Anastacia42]

We can't call it just semantics period that's kind of a cop-out. We have, however, picked the simplest words and experiences to keep this as close to direct experience as possible.

Once you see, this will be much clearer period now it's all just thinking.

As far as memory, here is an exercise for that.

Memory Exercise

Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly?

What is the memory ‘made of’?

WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

[Anastacia42]

The memory pointer is a little more advanced. This is the next pointer to build your awareness of direct experience vs. thinking.


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,