Rico Rolf's inquiries

[ricorolf]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? Currently, the strongest sense of self (that I'm aware of) comes up around unpleasant bodily sensations. There are the sensations and then there are countless inner moves trying to get rid of them (regulate them). I also know equanimity around that. But often there's a strong push/pull that feels like me.

What are you looking for at LU? I recently had an experience in which my reactivity significantly dropped. It didn't come back like it was before since one and a half months now. But like often for me, there's a lot of doubt around this experience. "What was that? What is meant by the first fetter in the first place? Did I get this? What about the second?" It's not so much that I'm hooked to these verbalized questions, I don't need to go there. It's more like a pervasive sense of uncertainty or something in the body that might express this way or similarly. And I'm hoping to be able to see these as equally empty as the many things that I saw before.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I'm hoping to find a guide that can help me point out identifications and fixations that I'm not able to see myself (because I'm too identified, obviously). This could include pushing forward at the "leading edge" of what can be seen through. But also I'm thinking about "trailing edges" that I might not be aware of. In particular I'm hoping to get some support around this issue described above (presumably a "doubt issue").

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I've been meditating on and off for ~15 years or so. In recent years a lot of see-hear-feel style noting and investigation in the three characteristics. That is, my main influences for a long time have been Shinzen Young and Daniel Ingram. I've been to a few retreats. And also I've quite a bit of experience with somatic therapies like Somatic Experiencing. In the last few weeks and months I've been enjoying the material by Kevin Schanilec, Christine Michelberger, and similar guides.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 8

[Nikinutter]

Hello Ricorolf,

Welcome to the forum, I see you've been waiting a while. My name is Nic and I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like. What would you like to be called?

I read your answers to the above questions, thank you for your honesty. It is clear you've been exploring a wide range of ideas and guiding over the years. At LU we are focused on helping you see through the illusion of a separate self by pointing to what is actually experienced directly with the senses. It requires putting aside all beliefs, concepts and thoughts and looking at what is being experienced here and now.

Ready to get started?

Warmly, Nic

[ricorolf]

Hi Nic,

thanks a lot for your offer to guide!

Ready to get started?

I have a question. As I described in my initial post, I had a drop in the sense of self recently, followed by a bout of doubt. By now the doubt has largely settled and I'm quite certain that the territory that I'm exploring is beyond the first fetter. In another thread I've read that this forum is mostly about the first fetter, though. Shall we still go on? I might be mistaken about my assessment and/or guidance might still be helpful, no matter how we would conceptualize any stages. What do you think?

What would you like to be called?

In any case, just call me Rolf. :)

Best wishes!

[Nikinutter]

Hello Rolf,

Nice to hear from you! Yes, this forum is about guiding through the illusion of self.
There is quite a few people, including myself, who come here having glimpses of that while questioning the validity of their experience. I think this is a useful place to explore your experience, there may be some points of identification that are still present in subtle ways that you may not see. We can do some inquiry and then I can ask you the final questions if you would like. When it has been confirmed by myself and other guides that you have "passed through the gate", you'll be welcome to join the unleashed community and you may find some helpful groups there to deepen your knowing, some which when with the fetters.

Can you write a bit about your shift of seeing through the illusion of self? Was it a clear shift that you remember or subtle?

Look forward to hearing from you,
Nic

[ricorolf]

Hi Nic, that sounds great!

Can you write a bit about your shift of seeing through the illusion of self? Was it a clear shift that you remember or subtle?

Sure. The shift was relatively subtle in the moment but very clear in its effect. In the moment there was just a subtle feeling of something popping in my chest, happening randomly during the day. I paused to see what happened and there was an immediate realization how there used to be an invisible identification with feelings, especially challenging ones, that has simply popped. It felt a bit like stepping out of a car after a crash. Still being dizzy and shaky, but also relieved and ready to go back home. In the weeks after that I was very aware of how thoughts and outer circumstances would still cause a lot of reactions in the emotion-body, but they did not stick like they did before. Instead the would pass quickly, almost like a massage running through the system, gently pressing against habitual tension. In contrast now it seems like there had been a central place in the chest, almost like a bottle-neck, through which all feelings had to pass through. Like a place that has been "keeping book" about every emotional challenge, always hurting the same spot until it became irritable and sore. Since this place is gone, life is waaaay more easy. When I think back how it was before, the change is almost dramatic. But calling it dramatic may be misleading because the new way feels so natural, obvious, and unexciting. I doubt that people would even notice anything from the outside unless they were looking really closely.

Another thing that seems noteworthy is a change in the field of vision. I remember clearly how there used to be a stark distance and tension even between object and subject, like over-there and over-here. I remember it because I used to work with it and because I had named it explicitly in the context of vipassana meditation. This distance and tension is hugely reduced now. It's not like the field of vision appears flat now. It rather seems like something in perception is too lazy now to consider the question of distance at all. The result is a field of vision that appears gently "integrated", for a lack of a more descriptive word.

There are still moments, though, when I question the depth of that shift. Mostly in situations that always used to be challenging for me. Like speaking in front of people, being evaluated, or allowing intimacy with others. In those moments, the pull into contracted states can be so strong that it is difficult to tell the difference between, on the one hand, strong habits and conditionings that just need time and space to loosen up, and on the other hand a total identification that would be worthy of close investigation.

I hope that this description is helpful in informing further inquiries. :)

[Nikinutter]

Thank you for your honesty and detailed answers, very helpful!

In the weeks after that I was very aware of how thoughts and outer circumstances would still cause a lot of reactions in the emotion-body, but they did not stick like they did before. Instead the would pass quickly, almost like a massage running through the system, gently pressing against habitual tension.

During these times when it felt like thoughts and outer circumstances were causing reactions I'm wondering what exactly was reacting to them? Is there a thinker or experiencer witnessing these circumstances? Are you the thinker of these thoughts? Can you even think and choose a thought?

Since this place is gone, life is waaaay more easy. When I think back how it was before, the change is almost dramatic. But calling it dramatic may be misleading because the new way feels so natural, obvious, and unexciting.

Shifts are often subtle like you described. It's the seemingly unexciting place that people are hesitant to explore and rest in because of expectations of how it should be.

Another thing that seems noteworthy is a change in the field of vision. I remember clearly how there used to be a stark distance and tension even between object and subject, like over-there and over-here.

I'm curious, do you feel you're the subject of experience and observing objects out there? Is there a seer separate from the seen?

There are still moments, though, when I question the depth of that shift. Mostly in situations that always used to be challenging for me. Like speaking in front of people, being evaluated, or allowing intimacy with others. In those moments, the pull into contracted states can be so strong that it is difficult to tell the difference between, on the one hand, strong habits and conditionings that just need time and space to loosen up, and on the other hand a total identification that would be worthy of close investigation.

Sometimes it does just takes time for things to settle but, it's definitely worth investigating further.
So if there is no self to experience a contracted state what exactly is contracting when you feel this? When you look for what is contracting where exactly do you look? What exactly do you find? Is there an experiencer of these states to be found anywhere? Please describe in detail what appears: feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Warmly, Nic

[ricorolf]

During these times when it felt like thoughts and outer circumstances were causing reactions I'm wondering what exactly was reacting to them?

Before the shift it felt as if there was some "thing" involved in the reaction. Like a "mechanism" or "conditioning" that was hard to negotiate with. After the shift, I would still call a bodily reaction a reaction, technically speaking. But without the separate "mechanism" causing it, more like a flow.

Is there a thinker or experiencer witnessing these circumstances?

I'm torn about this. I'm hesitant to call it an "experiencer" because it sounds like something like a full person in my ears. But it seems also wrong to say that there's no experiencer. Because there's something that experience is happening to, apparently.

Are you the thinker of these thoughts?

Yes and no. The thoughts themselves appear quite empty. It's more like there's something behind the thoughts that is starting them. It's hard to describe. Like the thoughts themselves are empty in their appearance but where they are coming from seems quite substantial. I try to answer to what degree this place is "me", but things get blurry there and I get a bit dizzy.

Can you even think and choose a thought?

This is funny. The spontaneous initial reaction was "Of course I can chose thoughts!". But when trying to do so, it doesn't work. :D

I'm curious, do you feel you're the subject of experience and observing objects out there?

Not quite sure. Before the shift it felt very comfortable to talk about subject and object. The tension between the two is reduced now, but not completely gone. I wouldn't exactly call it "in here" and "out there" - but there's definitely an "over there".

Is there a seer separate from the seen?

This is a bit weird. Yes and no. It's like the seen is activating something "over here". Most tangible is a subtle somatic tingling, like belonging to the face or chest or even the whole body. With the sensations there's also a sense of "something" over-here that remains invisible but is somehow central to the experience. That is, there's a lot going on that is kind of in opposition to the seen and separate from it. Which means, it is also apparent that all of that is not the seen, and the seen is only the seen. But at the same time, the seen is not only the seen because all the other stuff is automatically coming tied to it. The inconsistency of this experience and the quick back and forth there feels annoying, I must say, even a bit irritating.

So if there is no self to experience a contracted state what exactly is contracting when you feel this?

I don't know! I have to write a bit from memory here. Sometimes there's so much contraction that there is suffering. So I'm trying to find the suffering. And who's suffering from this suffering. And I can't find it. But there's still suffering, so it should be possible to find it. So it's somehow there but can't be seen.

What exactly do you find

Sensations. And attention jumping between sensations, trying to find the place where the suffering hides.

Is there an experiencer of these states to be found anywhere?

It's similar to the suffering. I can't point to an experiencer in immediate sensory reality and still it seems like it is there.

Please describe in detail what appears: feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Like right now when I'm looking for where the experience is received, there's somatic tingling, which is not it. There's a feeling of irritation or even slight desperation that comes from the frustrating search, which is not it. There are sounds and there's the screen in front of me. And attention moving back and forth between sound/screen and somatic sensations. And there's this stubborn sense that there's something invisible between all these appearances...

[Nikinutter]

Hello again!

After the shift, I would still call a bodily reaction a reaction, technically speaking. But without the separate "mechanism" causing it, more like a flow.

So would it be accurate to say that you feel a sensation arise in the body (which you label a "reaction") but there is no identification with the sensation? It's just noticed as a sensation arising and nothing more? Or do you have a tendency to still want to label the sensation as a specific reaction like anxiety or anger?

I'm hesitant to call it an "experiencer" because it sounds like something like a full person in my ears. But it seems also wrong to say that there's no experiencer. Because there's something that experience is happening to, apparently.

I think I understand what you're getting out. Does it sound correct to say that there is "something"aware of being aware of experience happening, but it can't be found out labeled?

Yes and no. The thoughts themselves appear quite empty. It's more like there's something behind the thoughts that is starting them. It's hard to describe. Like the thoughts themselves are empty in their appearance but where they are coming from seems quite substantial. I try to answer to what degree this place is "me", but things get blurry there and I get a bit dizzy.

Ok, let's look at this a bit more. Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.
The sense of self is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self -just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end. Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:
Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation?
Thought?

This is funny. The spontaneous initial reaction was "Of course I can chose thoughts!". But when trying to do so, it doesn't work. :D

Excellent!

[Nikinutter]

The tension between the two is reduced now, but not completely gone. I wouldn't exactly call it "in here" and "out there" - but there's definitely an "over there".

Try this and see if it helps clarify things for you:
Lie on your back and relax. Have a look at the ceiling. There is thought to be a distance between that what is thought to be known as ‘body’ and that what is labelled ‘ceiling’.
Close your eyes. Now focus on the space between body and ceiling. Take your time, breathe in and out and simply look. Keep the eyes shut.
What do you notice?
Is there a body? Is there a ceiling? Is there a distance?

Most tangible is a subtle somatic tingling, like belonging to the face or chest or even the whole body. With the sensations there's also a sense of "something" over-here that remains invisible but is somehow central to the experience.

Ok, let's see if we can clear this up as well. Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit. Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.
Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where Rolf is located.
Touch the exact location of Rolf
Answer these questions:
Were you able to find and feel Rolf in a direct way like the other parts of your
body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified Rolf (If any).
Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

I don't know! I have to write a bit from memory here. Sometimes there's so much contraction that there is suffering. So I'm trying to find the suffering. And who's suffering from this suffering. And I can't find it. But there's still suffering, so it should be possible to find it. So it's somehow there but can't be seen.

Even though you have experienced that the self is an illusion suffering can still be present when we identify with sensations that arise in the body. Can you see that sensations arising are no different than seeing, hearing and smelling happening? What makes them seem different is the thoughts, labels, and stories we attach to them. The meaning they hold are based in memories and past experiences that play out in the present moment through our identifying with them. It's not to say that they don't feel real and may need further exploring but when you can detach the labels they truly are just sensations arising and nothing more. Does that help in any way?

Like right now when I'm looking for where the experience is received, there's somatic tingling, which is not it. There's a feeling of irritation or even slight desperation that comes from the frustrating search, which is not it. There are sounds and there's the screen in front of me. And attention moving back and forth between sound/screen and somatic sensations. And there's this stubborn sense that there's something invisible between all these appearances...

Although you see that there is no noticer/observer/witness, there is still the feeling of identification of being "frustrated" or "irritated" which are all labels.
Let's look at the power labels have to change our experience.
There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.
When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
Is the red colour ‘experienced’ or is colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?
Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the ‘experience’ of the red colour; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red colour?
If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in
any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on
‘reality’?

That was a lot so please take your time. Use what's useful and put aside something is not. I like to give different exercises and explanations as everyone is so unique with what lands on then or gives them a "aha" moment. I look forward to hearing back from you!

Warmly, Nic

[ricorolf]

Hi Nic,

thanks a lot for you detailed answer! :)

So would it be accurate to say that you feel a sensation arise in the body (which you label a "reaction") but there is no identification with the sensation? It's just noticed as a sensation arising and nothing more? Or do you have a tendency to still want to label the sensation as a specific reaction like anxiety or anger?

Interesting. This question let me realize or better pinpoint a difference there. For a whole lot of sensations, the identification is gone. But then there are a few sensations left that stand out as something specific that I want to label, yes. I just got much clearer about what I want to look out for.

Does it sound correct to say that there is "something"aware of being aware of experience happening, but it can't be found out labeled?

Yeah, that sounds right.

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

There is a vague sense of location and size, somewhere in the head, throat, and chest. I'm trying to narrow it down by touching a point on my skin as reference and then checking if the location tends to be higher or lower. Similar for size. Sometimes this vague sense of a location moves away to somewhere else. Sometimes I lose it altogether so that I have to focus again or recreate the sense. In any case, this is work in progress, I will continue...

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

No, it doesn't communicate.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation?
Thought?

Not really. Closest I get in terms of attributes is this vague sense of a location. Plus a vague connection to sensations. Some sensations seem closer related to the sense of self than others. Like some of the bodily sensations in around head, throat, and chest.

Okay, so much for today. I'm going to continue answering your questions tomorrow.

Warmly,
Rolf

[Nikinutter]

Great work with all those questions! I just had a few comments on what you've written so far.

This question let me realize or better pinpoint a difference there. For a whole lot of sensations, the identification is gone. But then there are a few sensations left that stand out as something specific that I want to label, yes. I just got much clearer about what I want to look out for.

Great, let me know how that goes!

Does it sound correct to say that there is "something"aware of being aware of experience happening, but it can't be found out labeled?

Yeah, that sounds right.

Wonderful

There is a vague sense of location and size, somewhere in the head, throat, and chest. I'm trying to narrow it down by touching a point on my skin as reference and then checking if the location tends to be higher or lower. Similar for size. Sometimes this vague sense of a location moves away to somewhere else. Sometimes I lose it altogether so that I have to focus again or recreate the sense. In any case, this is work in progress, I will continue...

Please do continue, in your inquiries remember that you're looking for what is not there. That uninteresting aspect of awareness...

Not really. Closest I get in terms of attributes is this vague sense of a location. Plus a vague connection to sensations. Some sensations seem closer related to the sense of self than others. Like some of the bodily sensations in around head, throat, and chest.

It's very common to find the sense of self in the head or other areas. But does the body experience sensations and thought or is the ‘body’ just another thought label for sensations?
To highlight this I'd like to ask what makes Rolf, Rolf? If you take away your legs are you still Rolf? What about your arms, your eyes or your torso? What if your head is gone, are you still Rolf?

Warmly, Nic

[ricorolf]

Hi Nic,

it's me again! :)

What do you notice?
Is there a body? Is there a ceiling? Is there a distance?

It's interesting how these questions are pushing me to find better descriptions for experience. No, there's no body and no ceiling, just crude labels assigned to a sea of loosely connected sensations. There's also no distance in the conventional sense. So why did I call it like that? It's the attempt to describe how there's a certain dynamic relationship between the sensations of "ceiling" and "body". Like one influencing the other. I realize how this is true for many (all) sensations too. But "distance" to a center of experience feels special because it seems to have a certain stickiness to it, as if it's a thing implying other things. Something like that, if that makes sense. :D

Were you able to find and feel Rolf in a direct way like the other parts of your
body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified Rolf (If any).

When you are asking for "Rolf" this time (instead of the experiencer), then this appears as a label that's just floating around without being bound to a particular location. So there's no need for finding it somewhere.

Can you see that sensations arising are no different than seeing, hearing and smelling happening?

Yes.

What makes them seem different is the thoughts, labels, and stories we attach to them.

I understand you saying that the bodily sensations that lead to identification are basically the same as all other sense impressions unless there are labels and stories attached to them. I agree with respect to the added thoughts. But also there appears to be a perceptual quality of some sensations being more sticky or solid - something that is apparent even before labels and stories are added.

That said, I had an interesting observation today about the sense of self around contracted body sensations. The same unpleasant sensations came up as before. But what was different today was how attention did not lock in to them. As if attention is just too dispassionate about the unpleasantness to "stare" at it for any amount of time. Simply moving on the next sensations. And this attention dynamic seems to actually reduce the sense of self around the sensations. (It also reduced the labeling/thinking/story making around the sensations).

So much for today. :)

Warmly,
Rolf

[Nikinutter]

Hi again Rolf!

But "distance" to a center of experience feels special because it seems to have a certain stickiness to it, as if it's a thing implying other things. Something like that, if that makes sense. :D

It makes a lot of sense! The labels we have for certain things that feel "sticky" to us are there to help make sense of the world. The mere recognition of this is what being awake and aware is all about.

When you are asking for "Rolf" this time (instead of the experiencer), then this appears as a label that's just floating around without being bound to a particular location. So there's no need for finding it somewhere.

Very nice! It's interesting how using your name helped you see through this..

I understand you saying that the bodily sensations that lead to identification are basically the same as all other sense impressions unless there are labels and stories attached to them. I agree with respect to the added thoughts. But also there appears to be a perceptual quality of some sensations being more sticky or solid - something that is apparent even before labels and stories are added.

Exactly, this is a great insight. All sensations that seem to be felt in the body are just sensations and nothing more. That's important to not only conceptualize but also experience. Some seem to have a more "solid" quality than others which indicates there is identification going on with these for whatever reason. Some story or emotional undertone that needs further exploration. For the purpose of seeing through self, the awareness that identification is still happening with these more difficult sensations is a bookmark to return to.

That said, I had an interesting observation today about the sense of self around contracted body sensations. The same unpleasant sensations came up as before. But what was different today was how attention did not lock in to them. As if attention is just too dispassionate about the unpleasantness to "stare" at it for any amount of time. Simply moving on the next sensations. And this attention dynamic seems to actually reduce the sense of self around the sensations. (It also reduced the labeling/thinking/story making around the sensations).

This is awesome and kind of what I was getting at in my above response. It's not that we should bypass these sensations but more recognize them as just sensations happening. Doing that removes the stickiness to them so they can be observed and explored with less "heat" and more curiosity.

Warmly, Nic

[Nikinutter]

Hi Rolf,

Just checking in to see if any thing further had come up during your inquiries. I didn't have any questions last post as you seem to be seeing clearly with minor sticking points.
I do want to see what comes up for you with these questions:

Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
When the “I” has been seen through, fully and completely, what's left?

Look forward to hearing from you!

Warmly, Nic

[ricorolf]

Hi Nic, thanks for checking in again!

Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
When the “I” has been seen through, fully and completely, what's left?

The doubts have gone now. For the last few days it felt again like things were releasing and unfolding on their own, just needing a bit time for that. Feelings seem to become less sticky every day. For example, yesterday feelings of hunger came up without the "globalized" sense that there's an issue with "my" current state. Just the sensations of hunger. And open awareness increasingly becomes the natural resting ground to return to. Thoughts and sticky feelings are pulling away from there - but increasingly gentle and for shorter times. Often it feels as if remaining stickiness is "massaged away" by the experience itself. There's an unexciting naturalness and calmness and it is very nice not to be pulled away from that all the time. :)

Warmly,
Rolf