Tired, desperate and ready to see after 8 years of spiritual "quest". Looking for a final push.

[NoMansLand]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no agent, no doer, no thinker, but experience as it is with no filters. Raw, direct, persistent 24/7, clear. Done as in done, and never looked back upon. No more questions of any kind regarding existence or role, or meaning or seeking of anything. Complete dropping of the belief that there is a self of any kind whatsoever.

What are you looking for at LU?
I've never had any guide or teacher who would personally help me disentangle the illusion. I only used books (tons of them), YouTube, and whatnot to seemingly progress through this path of seeing, yet the seeing of the last final speck that is somehow obstructing the view is still here. Stuckness seems to be here and somehow clinging to the idea that there is "me" with all these different qualities and whatnot. With the help of the forum and this initiative, I hope that the seeing will be finally final and help me through the blind spots.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Showing me the flaw of current seeing, the obstruction that clearly remains somehow somewhere. No matter what I do it is still hiding, transforming, and shapeshifting into some other different "thing". I know it's just a story, yet it still seems so real and as an obstruction. I expect that this guided conversation will allow triggering seeing clearly and dropping this persistent "agent", "I", "my" belief for good. I am grateful for your service.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I remember seeing through the illusion in 2016 after reading Jed Mckenna's books Gateless Gatecrashers and breaking down in the "I don't exist". After that everything changed, and I went on a crazy ride through different spiritual practices, the Law of Attraction or Assumption (many practices that follow the line of "you create you reality" paths, Theravada Buddhism, Advaita etc. But there is still something missing, something is not awake, something is not clearly seeing. The last practice was following the Theravada path map and seeing the impermanence, suffering, and no-self in every waking moment. But I am REALLY fed up with spirituality of any kind. I am fed up with all the beliefs of any kind and I just want this belief to be gone, because it becomes a more and more apparent source of suffering. I am fed up with all the perpetual stories and spins and problems and yadda yadda yadda. The feeling of ripe and readyness is here, but the trigger is not happening despite all the chaos and craziness of my life.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Nikinutter]

Hello NoMansLand, please let me know what's you would like to be called. Welcome to Liberation Unleashed! My name is Nic and I'd be happy to point you in ways that might help you find the clarity you are seeking.

Stuckness seems to be here and somehow clinging to the idea that there is "me" with all these different qualities and whatnot.

I can relate to the feeling of "stuckness". It can be such a disheartening place to be, knowing conceptually there is no self but not being able to see through the illusion. I hope to help you get "unstuck".

But I am REALLY fed up with spirituality of any kind. I am fed up with all the beliefs of any kind and I just want this belief to be gone, because it becomes a more and more apparent source of suffering.

This is a good starting point for us! For the purpose of our conversation I would like to put aside all spiritual practices, beliefs, and concepts and focus on actual or direct experience.
Do you know what this means?
It's ok if you don't, I just want to get an idea of where to start. I look forward to hearing from you.

Warmly, Nic

[NoMansLand]

Hello NoMansLand, please let me know what's you would like to be called. Welcome to Liberation Unleashed! My name is Nic and I'd be happy to point you in ways that might help you find the clarity you are seeking.

Hey Nic. Appreciate the fast and clear response. That would be lovely. You can call me Adam.

It can be such a disheartening place to be, knowing conceptually there is no self but not being able to see through the illusion. I hope to help you get "unstuck".

It is. And the paradox of trying to catch the "thing" or "process" just doesn't work. I never asked for help and I guess that's the blindspot to my stickiness. Would appreciate your guidance.

For the purpose of our conversation I would like to put aside all spiritual practices, beliefs, and concepts and focus on actual or direct experience.
Do you know what this means?

Sure. I don't follow spirituality at all at this point. I am baffled by the concept at this point, but it was useful. Got it. No searching anywhere. Focusing here.

Direct experience of hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, seeing and thinking is the answer.

What is actually here and now and verifiable by these is apparently real.

I am familiar with seeing things as they are, yet the witness still remains somehow every single moment taking the credit for it. After initial "awakening" I started meditating almost everyday to hone on that thing.

Even if I go really meta meta meta to the thing observing itself it just doesn't collapse. If that makes sense. And even that is just another story I suppose...

Awaiting your reply. Appreciate your help.

[Nikinutter]

"Appreciate the fast and clear response. That would be lovely. You can call me Adam.

"

Nice to meet you Adam and I'm very happy to help. There has been so many wonderful people who have assisted me on my journey, I enjoy being able to do the same for others.

"And the paradox of trying to catch the "thing" or "process" just doesn't work."

This is such a great insight because it is paradox. There is nothing to process or catch and trying to do that just gets in the way of seeing what is already and always has been here. Such a simple thing really, yet soooo difficult.

"Direct experience of hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, seeing and thinking is the answer."

Yes. But it seems to me, and I could be wrong so please clarify if I am, that this an intellectual answer and not something you necessarily hold any weight to. So, with that assumption on my part I would like to make this just a little more clear as I think it may be helpful to you as we go forward:

Seeing
Hearing
Tasting
Smelling
Feeling or as you said touching (Sensation only, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, thinking about content is just more thinking and takes you out of direct experience)

Is this clear and does it make sense to you? Please let me know if you need clarification on any of that.

"What is actually here and now and verifiable by these is apparently real."

I would like to clarify this response. What do you think about direct experience? Do you doubt that direct experience is real?

Let's make sure we are on the same page. There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience). This may be useful to help illustrate:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

- You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

- Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be absolutely certain by looking.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience.

Does that make sense?

"Even if I go really meta meta meta to the thing observing itself it just doesn't collapse. If that makes sense. And even that is just another story I suppose..."

This all makes so much sense to me! I can remember this becoming an echo chamber of sorts with myself at the center. Being aware that I'm aware and then noticing that awareness and then more awareness is happening and who is aware? Ugh, around and around ad nauseum. Let's stop that and get to the point of why you're here.

So at this point I'd like to ask you who this "self" or "witness" is? Who is creating stories? Please explain with detail.

I look forward to hearing from you Adam.

Warmly, Nic

[NoMansLand]

Thank you for your response and your time, Nic.

This is such a great insight because it is a paradox. There is nothing to process or catch and trying to do that just gets in the way of seeing what is already and always has been here. Such a simple thing really, yet soooo difficult.

And then a thought arose: I should see this already if it’s so easy. Why is it so difficult? The story seems so compelling. The identity of complex stories with vibrant backgrounds is what it likes I suppose. Is there an attachment there?

Yes. But it seems to me, and I could be wrong so please clarify if I am, that this an intellectual answer and not something you necessarily hold any weight to. So, with that assumption on my part, I would like to make this just a little more clear as I think it may be helpful to you as we go forward:

Seeing
Hearing
Tasting
Smelling
Feeling or as you said touching (Sensation only, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, thinking about content is just more thinking and takes you out of direct experience)

Is this clear and does it make sense to you? Please let me know if you need clarification on any of that.

There is difficulty in clarifying the answer without the use of intellect. In a sense there is no weight there I guess. The distinction doesn't make that much sense anymore either. Seeing, hearing, all the same - all stuff happening somehow including the witness.

And then how could it all take me out of direct experience since all there is is that? And that paradox again.

The "emotion" explanation is very useful. Makes total sense. There is no such thing as emotion since it’s sensation and then mind making a category and a story. Is that correct?

I would like to clarify this response. What do you think about direct experience? Do you doubt that direct experience is real?

Direct experience is inevitable and just happens.

Yeah. I guess I do doubt it.

But then it's realized it’s only a memory or a thought that could raise doubt.

There is a fear that it’s not real. There is a hope that it's not real either since it can't possibly be it. That this can’t possibly be real and it’s just a fleeting dream. Dream at night seem real but they obviously aren’t. Then the mind categorizes it and puts the direct experience in the same box. And generalizes that nothing is real. Including itself.

Just writing what arose. Should I continue to do that, or is it's useless rant for the purpose of guidance?

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience.

Does that make sense?

Yes. Mind tends to claim that it creates all that and takes credit for it all. Hmm…

The actual direct experience is fingers moving, and tapping on the screen (contact).
Letters are arising from that input.
There is an intention to write the next word and then it all arises and it happens fast.
Seeing the screen.
Breathing happening.
Movement of eyeballs tracking the space.
The pressure of the contact of skin with clothes and the bed from sitting.
Not tasting much. Observing.

But then again - it's just colors, or textures, or lights.

This all makes so much sense to me! I can remember this becoming an echo chamber of sorts with myself at the center. Being aware that I'm aware and then noticing that awareness and then more awareness is happening and who is aware? Ugh, around and around ad nauseum. Let's stop that and get to the point of why you're here.

So at this point I'd like to ask you who this "self" or "witness" is? Who is creating stories? Please explain with detail.

Exactly. And that’s the pattern that tends to persist now.

Self is...
There is nothing that answers this question. I don’t know. A few years ago I would say mind and body and personality, then a few years after I would say soul or god, but now I don’t find anything like that. Looking for self seems to be looking for something that doesn’t exist so it’s bound to not be found. Seems like a lost cause, but it's something that must happen to be free from the seeking.

The self is the seeker?

The witness seems to be the thing behind the eyeballs or sometimes the heart area. Sometimes back of the head. Now using the memory so apologize.

Stories seem to create themselves constantly. Every thought seemingly connected to another. The central character is "I" or "Adam" or "me" or whatever believes it exists at the point of making the story flow.

Is that sufficient, or should I go further?

Thank you for your assistance,
Adam

[Nikinutter]

"Thank you for your response and your time, Nic."

Your very welcome Adam

"And then a thought arose: I should see this already if it’s so easy. Why is it so difficult? The story seems so compelling. The identity of complex stories with vibrant backgrounds is what it likes I suppose. Is there an attachment there?"

What is identifying? What is attached? Are these not just more stories?

"The "emotion" explanation is very useful. Makes total sense. There is no such thing as emotion since it’s sensation and then mind making a category and a story. Is that correct?

Correct. What we call emotion is just a sensation that arises in the body and then a label is put to that sensation based on stories.

"Just writing what arose. Should I continue to do that, or is it's useless rant for the purpose of guidance?"

Please continue to write what arises for you, it helps me to understand where you're at more clearly and in that way helps my pointing to be more applicable to you.

"The actual direct experience is fingers moving, and tapping on the screen (contact).
Letters are arising from that input.
There is an intention to write the next word and then it all arises and it happens fast.
Seeing the screen.
Breathing happening.
Movement of eyeballs tracking the space.
The pressure of the contact of skin with clothes and the bed from sitting.
Not tasting much. Observing.
But then again - it's just colors, or textures, or lights."

This is lovely noticing of direct experience, it's very clear. Are you able to rest there?

Yeah. I guess I do doubt it.

But then it's realized it’s only a memory or a thought that could raise doubt.

There is a fear that it’s not real. There is a hope that it's not real either since it can't possibly be it. That this can’t possibly be real and it’s just a fleeting dream. Dream at night seem real but they obviously aren’t. Then the mind categorizes it and puts the direct experience in the same box. And generalizes that nothing is real. Including itself."

When fear and doubt arise it's important to address them as they can prevent you from going forward. This is very normal as well, many of us experience fear and doubt at this point. It's like a lock on a door that keeps you from entering the unknown. But what is fear? How do YOU experience fear? And finally WHAT is experiencing fear?

"Looking for self seems to be looking for something that doesn’t exist so it’s bound to not be found."

Exactly, this is a wonderful observation. How does it feel to hear that?

"The witness seems to be the thing behind the eyeballs or sometimes the heart area. Sometimes back of the head. Now using the memory so apologize."

No need to apologize. Thank you for the explanation on how you think of the self. I'm glad you recognize that you're using your memory to describe the"witness", that is great. I may come back to this later but I feel like I've given you enough questions for now. I look forward to hearing from you!

Warmly, Nic

[NoMansLand]

What is identifying? What is attached? Are these not just more stories?

The seeker is identifying. He is attached to the "thing". Of course. He is a part of the story. The main character. But then again he's not real. He's just a label, right?

Without this story the whole thing is meaningless.
It will become dull.
He is what makes it all colorful.

Or that's what arose right now. Maybe that's a clue. Maybe just more gibberish.

Well, the seeker loses its meaning when the thing is found.

I keep saying the thing and I am not even sure what I mean by that. So confusing. But interesting.

I have no idea what is identifying. I can't locate it. So it shouldn't exist. Yet the effect is there. The effect is that the seeker is still here alive and kicking and trying to make some progress on this arc.

The progress is there. The seeker is completely different than before. Completely different. Yet he remains and the seeing is not complete.

The fear of losing all the progress. The fear of becoming a robot again? After the first seeing it can't be unseen and entirety of the story is

These are just thoughts arising.
No emotions are present.
Just label fear with nothing else going on at all.

It seems to happen by itself like everything else. Arising and passing away. But the moment it does arise it clouds the thing, the synchrony is gone. Frustration arising.

Or rather the knot in the heart area is arising. Labeled frustration.
Familiarity arises. Just a thought of familiarity with no other effects.

The identification with the story is attached to the story if that makes sense. It's a part of the story. So main story and little stories. This is so weird when I look at it like that. I intellectually get it. The experience is just not there.

The story continues and no stop button is to be found. Self-indulging (thought).

"This is lovely noticing of direct experience, it's very clear. Are you able to rest there? "

Yes. And no. Nobody to rest there though. Experience is constantly shifting. There is no rest. It's all just moving restless-ness. No stability to be found. When noticing the direct experience the noticing continues for some time and is lucid, but then it's not something that is stable or locked in. It doesn't change the fact that indentification is still here. The witness is still here.

I continue to write about witness but it's just a pattern that is repeating itself. There is no witness. There is just witnessing. I am aware of that. But then there is this meta thing chamber going on where it's witnessing of witnessing and it's just not doing much.

Ok, let's see.

Deep breathing in and out. Fingers moving on the keyboard now.
Hearing the crackle.
Tasting nothing in particular.
Feeling warmth on hands.
Thinking about what to write next.
Looking for the next noticing to happen.
Thinking like a robot.
Gulping. Deep breath in and out again.
Some movements in the stomach area.
Looking at handwriting.
Looking for self again.
Nothing.

I could just go on and on with that. But the thing is not solving itself.

So here are the questions:

Should I just continue to notice every living moment of this experience this way?

Is avoiding the influence of the mind and anchoring in the direct experience the final answer?

Or rather solving this "problem" by simply forgetting the pattern through complete living?

"When fear and doubt arise it's important to address them as they can prevent you from going forward. This is very normal as well, many of us experience fear and doubt at this point. It's like a lock on a door that keeps you from entering the unknown. But what is fear? How do YOU experience fear? And finally WHAT is experiencing fear? "

Makes total sense. I'll notice that more from now on.

I don't seem to fear much in terms of raw emotion anymore when looking into it. In retrospect it was really emotionally draining. Now it's just tired and bored with all of it. Running in circles with so many different circles. Unknown is all there is yet it's not fully appreciated still.

What is fear? A label. A physical response in a body somewhere. Trying to remember some fearful story to investigate. It's just higher heart rate, way bigger than standard like cardio excersice.

It's defense. It's contraction, or flight, or fight. So many facets of the same thing labeled FEAR.

What is experiencing fear? The body is experiencing fear. The mind is experiencing fear.
They both charge themselves and inform the other of the fearful event.

Oh, now I am afraid that I am not looking properly and using intellect to answer the question. Interesting. Not much behind that. Just label afraid. Afraid that I will fail and it won't work. The looking behind the thing won't work and I will forever be trapped in this weird limbo.

Interesting. It's more of an interesting thing and just thoughts about thoughts. The body is not really experiencing anything. Just hands writing, eyeballs tracking, hearling clicking of the button mashing etc. Maybe the story is just to find more stories to fuel this strange machine with no end in sight.

"Exactly, this is a wonderful observation. How does it feel to hear that? "

It feels empty. It feels pointless. The entire story loses it's meaning. I guess the expectation that there must be something real behind it is there. I don't believe in self anymore, yet the self is, so the story still must be believed in.

Now the statement :"The self is" is just a speculation. And I get it. But nothing else changed.

Thank you for your wonderful questions Nic. They do keep this process engaging and looking deeper than before. Focused. Still looking into the unlookable.

And thank you for reading.

For the reference: Should I edit the answers so they're more focused or just continue with this strange stream writing with no filters more including all the sudden movements?

Thank you,
Adam

[Nikinutter]

"Thank you for your wonderful questions Nic. They do keep this process engaging and looking deeper than before. Focused. Still looking into the unlookable.
And thank you for reading."

That's so great to hear, I'm glad my questions are helping. I'm enjoying reading your answers and offering what I can. You said a lot of really insightful things in your last post and I want you to know that I've read and appreciated everything you've expressed. For the purpose of keeping things clear and focused so you can continue to gain deeper insight, I'm going to point to a few things that I feel are important and might help.

"The seeker is identifying. He is attached to the "thing". Of course. He is a part of the story. The main character. But then again he's not real. He's just a label, right?"

Yes, the character or seeker is just a label. Like a post it note we put on on something to help us make sense of the world.

"Without this story the whole thing is meaningless.
It will become dull.
He is what makes it all colorful."

Are you sure about this? What is it about your story that leads you to believe this?

"Well, the seeker loses its meaning when the thing is found.
I keep saying the thing and I am not even sure what I mean by that. So confusing. But interesting."

It is interesting, I'm glad you see that! What is this thing that is "found"? Do you find it in direct experience? Or is it just another thought or story?"

I have no idea what is identifying. I can't locate it. So it shouldn't exist. Yet the effect is there. The effect is that the seeker is still here alive and kicking and trying to make some progress on this arc."

Yes, go on...What is this alive feeling?

The progress is there. The seeker is completely different than before. Completely different. Yet he remains and the seeing is not complete."

This is great, I love to hear this! It will come, let's keep looking.

"The fear of losing all the progress. The fear of becoming a robot again? After the first seeing it can't be unseen and entirety of the story is"

Yes, when you've seen you cannot unsee, it's a beautiful thing although maybe it doesn't feel that way for you right now. So, if you cannot unsee what is this progress you're afraid of losing? What is this robot you refer to?

"Or rather the knot in the heart area is arising. Labeled frustration.
Familiarity arises. Just a thought of familiarity with no other effects."

This knot in the heart area feels familiar to you because it is. You've felt it enough times that you've labeled it frustration and when you feel it arise that's what you identify it as. But, what is this knot without the labels?

The story continues and no stop button is to be found. Self-indulging (thought)."

What do you think of thought? Can you control your thoughts?
How do they arise? How do they face away?

"Should I just continue to notice every living moment of this experience this way?"

It is part of the process of seeing what is really here while letting go of the stories and labels. I think it feels tedious for you right now, but please stick with it the best you can while at the same time not making it just another way of identifying. I hope that makes sense.

"Is avoiding the influence of the mind and anchoring in the direct experience the final answer?"

The goal is not to avoid but to recognize the illusion. Avoiding is just bypassing, the answers are always in direct experience.

"Or rather solving this "problem" by simply forgetting the pattern through complete living?"

Again, the goal is not to forget either but to recognize the pattern and how it keeps us stuck in the illusion.

" I'll notice that more from now on."

This is going to help moving forward!

"What is fear? A label."

Yes

"Oh, now I am afraid that I am not looking properly and using intellect to answer the question. Interesting. Not much behind that. Just label afraid. Afraid that I will fail and it won't work. The looking behind the thing won't work and I will forever be trapped in this weird limbo."

Remember fear is just a sensation in the body and a label we put to it. Fear is not be feared, it just is and points us to what needs to be noticed. Sometimes that noticing is real (a bear chasing me and I need to escape) and other times it's just the label we are putting to a sensation that is arising in the body (the knot that arises in the heart space for you). For me it was a crushing feeling in my chest that "told" me I needed to flee even when I was physically safe.

It feels empty. It feels pointless. The entire story loses it's meaning. I guess the expectation that there must be something real behind it is there. I don't believe in self anymore, yet the self is, so the story still must be believed in."

Those are hard feelings, I want to acknowledge that. I hope through continuing to inquire together that you'll find your way to what is"real".

"For the reference: Should I edit the answers so they're more focused or just continue with this strange stream writing with no filters more including all the sudden movements?"

Just go with it, I can make sense of what you're writing and how things change with your from moment to moment. It's wonderful.

I have an inquiry that I'll put in another post as there is several questions. Please take your time with is, I hope it's helpful.

Warmly, Nic

[Nikinutter]

Hi Adam, here is the inquiry I mentioned in my last posting (although as I write this I realize you may be reading this first) and why I think it may be helpful based on something you said in your last posting.

"What is experiencing fear? The body is experiencing fear. The mind is experiencing fear.
They both charge themselves and inform the other of the fearful event."

I am wondering how it is you think of the body and how it informs the mind.

Please sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can
look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering,
having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Warmly, Nic

[NoMansLand]

Hi Nic! Thank you very much for your post. Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

Are you sure about this? What is it about your story that leads you to believe this?

Not sure. Just something that came as a thought to this other thought.
Not sure of anything anymore, and haven't been for quite a while (another thought).
Like what is the point of the intellect then?
What is the point of the story?
Why does it arise to just obfuscate the reality?

If it's here there must be a purpose of this. (and that is another thought that tries to make sense of all the data...) I know it's just another story but it's something that needs to be seen and let go off I suppose.

It seemed that without this story life will become just meaningless dance of colors, sensations and will become intelligible chaos that doesn't make much sense.

Not that it makes sense now, haha! It's still chaotic and messy, but the narration keeps it interesting I guess. The narrator doesn't have to go anywhere since he's not real. It's just a thought. It arises, and it passes away. No need to put more spin onto that.

It is interesting, I'm glad you see that! What is this thing that is "found"? Do you find it in direct experience? Or is it just another thought or story?"

It's another story. The thing is the carrot on the stick for the seeker to go and annihilate himself.
He went on a chase for freedom but he didn't realize what the freedom means.

The "thing" doesn't exist I guess. Not in this moment. The thing is what is and it's all that is available at the moment. Nothing to find since it's all there is. Direct experience itself is it I suppose.

But the thing it refers to is abiding shift that doesn't contract into this tiny little speck that thinks it's separate. Like the grand prize. But it's just expectations. They are seen. They are stories and thoughts around the subject of direct experience.

Making judgments about expectations as bad and making the seeing impossible, but that's just another obstacle. Aaaaand here is the meta-problem again. Haha! It's seen as a joke I guess. No hard feelings, it's light.

Yes, go on...What is this alive feeling?

Life is alive. Luminosity? Not sure how to put it. But it's coming and going too.

With every breath and every beat.

It's in the heart I guess. Not the physical heart, more like a center of the body? It's the place where the breath reaches, expands and then leaves the body. That's what alive.

But then again - isn't everything else alive?

Fingers moving are not the thing in the body.
Eyeballs aren't that, yet they seem alive.
Subtle muscle spasms in the legs seem alive either.
So the alive feeling is just a label for this and given special importance for no reason whatsoever.

Is that a speculation? Why differentiation is there?

It's just a feeling like any other.
Why should that obstruct clear and precise seeing of what is?
Label obstructing the seeing and including some more value than every other feeling.

"Yes, when you've seen you cannot unsee, it's a beautiful thing although maybe it doesn't feel that way for you right now. So, if you cannot unsee what is this progress you're afraid of losing? What is this robot you refer to?
"

That seeing the thing made it impossible for the character to function properly. Or rather to function without this half-seeing all the time. To live in two different worlds. Like a halfborn.

The first seeing was complete, it was absolutely clear then.

After that the entire journey of dropping layer after layer after layer.

But then coming to the deepest parts of the whole process.
Before it was just some dreams, desires and other standard crap that was conditioned. Some of the dreams and desires were fulfilled, some other weren't. It was important part of the journey. They weren't suppose to satisfy ever and the full seeing is always at the back of the mind. Like a headache or a splinter in the mind that motivates (sometimes harshly) to look closer and look clearer.

Now it's the most fundamental process.
I know it's all just a story, but that's how this process of unfolding is labeling itself right now.
The context makes it maybe easier to digest the illusion? I am not sure why it arises now.

It's like the stakes get higher and higher, each moment this gets more urgent and urgent, since every part of the separation that still kicks in is painful. It's different pain than living in total separation as before being this compeltely separate sleeping agent. That's the robot part I am refering to.

The hero from before that didn't know about this at all few years back.

I guess I am expecting the big bang, the grand finale, and knowing that this is something to be done, or worked on is what drives this feeling of wanting it done. Done done. Not half done. It makes this whole process more frustrating. Seeing the turbulent nature of life. I guess it's just more expectations. There is a lot of importance given to that finale. Like it will change anything? Like direct experience will be more direct? It doens't make sense and yet it's how this process perceives itself.

Expectations are thoughts. What else can they be?
Nothing can be lost for direct experience is all there is. Losing expectations doesn't seem possible either because they aren't stable things. They just come and go as thoughts. Now wondering if it all makes sense and helps the case, or just ranting and venting. :)

This knot in the heart area feels familiar to you because it is. You've felt it enough times that you've labeled it frustration and when you feel it arise that's what you identify it as. But, what is this knot without the labels?

Dont feel it right now. There is just nothing there when I look. Knots without labels will just be another sensation. Another meaningless sensation. Tension or whatnot. Why would it be more important than anything else, right?

I did have a few instances of this same tension arising in the last few hours. Different situations, but the feeling was the same. It was more clearly seen than before. The thought was seen to arise codependently with that. Maybe just fooling itself. It's the doubt that this is not working, right? That's also seen right now. Will continue to look into that and investigate the bare sensation and label.

What do you think of thought?

It's another sensation like any other sense door. It arises and passes away like everything else. They don't persist.

Can you control your thoughts?

Attempting to control thoughts leaves the mind blank. But that's probably because there is no such thing as the mind, it's just a thought that there is a mind that controls it all. Am I speculating?

No control is possible.

How do they arise?

They appear. I don't know how. They arise. Scream, whisper, or show, and disappear.

How do they face away?

They vanish never to be found anywhere. I don't know how they fade away. They just do. Come and go. Another thought would suggest it's a part of nature, a part of the cycle, just living. But that's just a label for the process that happens anyway without the label.

That seems to be a vital insight into the separate self which is supposed to be seen as arising and passing away as "I" thought. This is noticed, but not sure if it changes anything at the moment.

"Not sure if it changes at the moment" is also a thought.

A little laughter arose. "What a strange game."

"It is part of the process of seeing what is really here while letting go of the stories and labels. I think it feels tedious for you right now, but please stick with it the best you can while at the same time not making it just another way of identifying. I hope that makes sense. "

Got it. Makes sense. Seeing any attempt to identify as another thought arising. Nothing to stick to. Will investigate.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Weight no.
Volume... No. Attempted to capture it all, but it was just a constant shifting of attention from many different points in "space".

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No. There is pressure where the mind would label the apparent boundary, but it's just more qualities of space. Sensations and feelings of pressure, etc.

Is there an inside or an outside?

No. In direct experience, it's just THIS.

(I did this also with eyes open going about my day. There is no visible outside and inside anywhere present. Who would make the distinction? I remember there was at some point but it dropped around a year or two. I didn't seem to notice that much difference but when I use memory I can clearly remember there were strict boundaries at some point. Not sure if its relevant, just popped up.)

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

It refers to this area in space that is central to this space. There are more small labels inside this like arms, head, legs etc. There are organs inside the body, although never experienced them as is. Just effects of their workings. Breathing is a big part of this entity labeled "body" but it's just a concept in actual experience. Breathing is also a concept. But this is just speculation. So in direct experience, it's just colors, textures, sounds, But going even deeper it's just shimmers, some small perceptions of feelings, itches in various parts of this "body". Soreness. Mapped somewhere in this central space.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

It's colors, feelings, movement. It's just movement of the abdomen, air in and air out. Movements of different kinds. Shifts in this space. Thoughts also arise in this space. Tension in the heart area also arises in this area.

But now that I see it, there is no actual experience of the body. All these various experiences mapped here are just put in this basket BODY, but the actual BODY as an entity is not.

I will continue to investigate. Thank you so much for your help and pointing.
Much gratitude,
Adam

[Nikinutter]

Hi Adam,
Thank you for continue this conversation, I'm enjoying following you on this journey and always glad to assist with continued pointing!

Like what is the point of the intellect then?
What is the point of the story?
Why does it arise to just obfuscate the reality?

Great questions

If it's here there must be a purpose of this. (and that is another thought that tries to make sense of all the data...) I know it's just another story but it's something that needs to be seen and let go off I suppose.

Yes, great insight!

It seemed that without this story life will become just meaningless dance of colors, sensations and will become intelligible chaos that doesn't make much sense.

Is direct experience chaos? Or freedom from chaos?

It's another story. The thing is the carrot on the stick for the seeker to go and annihilate himself.
He went on a chase for freedom but he didn't realize what the freedom means.

What does this freedom mean? What is your expectation of this freedom?

But the thing it refers to is abiding shift that doesn't contract into this tiny little speck that thinks it's separate. Like the grand prize. But it's just expectations. They are seen. They are stories and thoughts around the subject of direct experience.

What is this subject of direct experience?

No control is possibl

e.
Agreed

How do they arise?
They appear. I don't know how. They arise. Scream, whisper, or show, and disappear

.
You are definitely understanding

How do they fade away?
They vanish never to be found anywhere. I don't know how they fade away. They just do. Come and go. Another thought would suggest it's a part of nature, a part of the cycle, just living. But that's just a label for the process that happens anyway without the label.

Yes!

That seems to be a vital insight into the separate self which is supposed to be seen as arising and passing away as "I" thought. This is noticed, but not sure if it changes anything at the moment.

Please let me know if it does.

"Not sure if it changes at the moment" is also a thought.
A little laughter arose. "What a strange game."

Indeed!

Is there an inside or an outside?
No. In direct experience, it's just THIS.

Exactly

But now that I see it, there is no actual experience of the body. All these various experiences mapped here are just put in this basket BODY, but the actual BODY as an entity is not.

This is a wonderful insight

I will continue to investigate.

Please do! If you like these kind of pointers that give directions and ask questions about experience I have another one that gets you deeper into the experience of body. If you would like I can share it. Let me know.

Warmly, Nic

[NoMansLand]

Is direct experience chaos? Or freedom from chaos?"

That's a good one. So It's not this and not that.
Or it's all chaos and all freedom.

It's completely empty thought.
It's a concept with no content whatsoever.
Chaos and freedom don't exist apart from a thought.

It's just like the separate self, right?

Chaos is a thought.
Freedom is also a thought – a concept.
Freedom for who, for what etc.

Chaos as what? And for who? Zero.
Freedom as what? And for who? Zero.

Direct experience is what is and only that is and that's what is here.
In this moment freedom and chaos seem seen through. Let's see if it clicks.

"What does this freedom mean? What is your expectation of this freedom?"

Freedom is a story that means different things in different parts of this seeker's life.

It was once financial freedom, then location freedom, then freedom from seeking.

And then all at the same time.

The last one was freedom from seeking.

The expectation is that seeking stops, "the splinter in the mind dissolves", and the seeing that there is no self is constant. The direct experience with no filters remains. The journey can end. The seeker can finally rest.

There is a feeling of tiredness and slow and deep breathing.

But again what is an expectation if not a thought that arises?

"I"claims the thought and that's how the story is built block by block. It's more like a web, but then again how can something that doesn't last create a story? It's miraculous that it's even possible.

Maybe it doesn't create a story. The story is just another thought that arises as itself...

All these concepts are held dearly like they mean anything. But they don't.

They just label some imaginary scenarios that may happen, but may not happen, but who cares?

Also – 2 interesting (?) notes/conclusions

One that it's so easy to see concepts as concepts now. At least at this very moment. Noooo idea if it lasts till tomorrow.

It seems different than before we started our dialogue, but of course, further testing and proofing are needed to conclude anything. (And what is the conclusion if not a thought anyway?) Many thanks!

The second one is "emotions" and the fact there is no such thing to be found in Direct Experience at all. The "physical component" is seen first now, instead of the label and then the label arises.

Some weird things are going on like tension in the gut, and label thought "feeling like a failure"

OR next one:

Annoyance or anger or whatever is similar.
Tension in toes, clenching fists, clenching jaw. Faster breathing. Forced outbreaths. Eyes rolling.
Some strange lip movement that I cannot even possibly begin to describe lol. Hillarious.

That's kind of a big deal/shift when I think about the impact of emotions on everyday life.

There are no emotions. Ridiculous.
Yet they are given so much importance somehow by everybody.
Or happiness.
Or sadness.
Or hope.
Or whatever.

They are absolutely empty. No content as in zero.

Correct me if I am wrong, or if this is some more illusion playing tricks on itself.

Oh, what an interesting unfolding.

Many thanks. Many many many thanks.

"If you like these kind of pointers that give directions and ask questions about experience I have another one that gets you deeper into the experience of body. If you would like I can share it. Let me know. "

Of course, bring it on, please. Let's burn this thing to the ground hahaha.

Not experiencing body right now. Which is interesting. Because I never had, it's just some disjointed sensations and arisings that are seemingly connected but there is zero proof that they are some entity BODY.

There is no entity body. It's like these little fishes that make an image of the big fish.
The big fish was never there but the little ones are what make the big ones.



Now the question is... do the little fishes exist? Sensations continue to arise, so if we take them as little ones, then yes?

Again – does that make sense, or is it some mind trick?

Is that a doubt in seeing the reality clearly? Or clearer?

The second-guessing that arises? Looking for reassurance?

Doubt. Some strange feeling in the throat area. Eyes rolling doing some weird thing. Interesting.
Nothing to see here now anyway. Doubting is also a concept.

Is there an actual experience of DOUBT or just some sensations, like any other experience?

Experience is just sensations?
It's totally ludicrous. Yet it was a concept that was known before (intellectually.)

Of course. Just cicadas of perception.

But the witnessing is still happening.

Then again, witnessing will not drop, right? It's necessary to even experience anything.
Or witnessing is also an illusion. How does witnessing is experienced?

Noticing? Aware-ing? Witnessing? All the same thing? Labeling the process of recognition that must happen for anything for origination. Dependently arising/originating with everything else?

But then – can dependent origination be found in the direct experience? (I know the concept intellectually but it seems to be more and more prominent in DE, or rather dependent origination is all that DE is...)

Now that I read it one more time it sounds like the ramblings of a madman hahaha. Hopefully, it's something you can use to further push this one to the edge of the mind.

Thank you kindly, Nic! For everything,
Adam

[Nikinutter]

Good evening Adam! (At least where I'm currently living it's evening)
This was so wonderful for me to read when I got home from work. Such lovely insights you've had. I'm so happy for you :)

That's a good one. So It's not this and not that.
Or it's all chaos and all freedom.

It's such a dichotomy isn't it :)

It's completely empty thought.
It's a concept with no content whatsoever.
Chaos and freedom don't exist apart from a thought.
It's just like the separate self, right?

You got it, quite an amazing realization eh?

Direct experience is what is and only that is and that's what is here.

I love this realization. Does it still feel dull to you?

The last one was freedom from seeking.

So powerful to see this, truly. I had been there for many years myself. Constantly seeking and not knowing what is already here if I could just rest. So beautiful to see.

One that it's so easy to see concepts as concepts now.

Amazing

At least at this very moment. Noooo idea if it lasts till tomorrow.

Please let me know what you find!

It seems different than before we started our dialogue, but of course, further testing and proofing are needed to conclude anything. (And what is the conclusion if not a thought anyway?) Many thanks!

Exactly! And you're so very welcome. But, this understanding has all been you. I just listened and offered questions to point you to what you were "seeking".

That's kind of a big deal/shift when I think about the impact of emotions on everyday life.

Agreed, this is so liberating when seen through. Game changer is it not?

Correct me if I am wrong, or if this is some more illusion playing tricks on itself.

No need to correct. Sensations still do arise but they can remain unlabeled and just felt. It's a powerful illusion to see through for sure

Oh, what an interesting unfolding.

It really is!

The big fish was never there but the little ones are what make the big ones.

Great analogy!

Now the question is... do the little fishes exist? Sensations continue to arise, so if we take them as little ones, then yes?

Please let me know the answer! :)

Again – does that make sense, or is it some mind trick?

It makes total sense. How far can you trace the parts? Atoms, quarks? Is there maybe more?

Is that a doubt in seeing the reality clearly? Or clearer?
The second-guessing that arises? Looking for reassurance?

Adam only you can know if you're seeing clearly. What I can say is that I'm following you every step of the way and it's very clear to me what you're expressing. You do not seem like a "madman" to me at all but one that truly is beginning to see.

Doubt. Some strange feeling in the throat area. Eyes rolling doing some weird thing. Interesting.
Nothing to see here now anyway. Doubting is also a concept.

Yes it is, and a slippery slope when followed.

Of course. Just cicadas of perception.

It can certainly get noisy until you notice it's not.

Then again, witnessing will not drop, right? It's necessary to even experience anything.
Or witnessing is also an illusion. How does witnessing is experienced?

More questions, great! Maybe a more pointed question would be: is there an experiencer or is there just experience happening? Do you feel you're a subject and there are objects apart from you? Or is life just happening?

But then – can dependent origination be found in the direct experience? (I know the concept intellectually but it seems to be more and more prominent in DE, or rather dependent origination is all that DE is..

Agreed, the concept is prominent in DE. Is everything interconnected with everything affecting everything else? Use DE for this and let me know what you find!

Warmly, Nic

[Nikinutter]

Of course, bring it on, please. Let's burn this thing to the ground hahaha.

Ok, let it burn!

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out
any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.
Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the
sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the
movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of
movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not
from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of
movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only
thoughts and mental images suggest so?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only
sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only
an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Let me know what you find. Have a wonderful evening, morning or day wherever you're at!

Warmly, Nic

[NoMansLand]

Hi Nic! It's daytime here – I'm in Europe Poland UTC/GMT+1. I am happy you also get something out of these interactions.

"The last one was freedom from seeking.
So powerful to see this, truly. I had been there for many years myself. Constantly seeking and not knowing what is already here if I could just rest. So beautiful to see. "

Freedom from seeking still arises as a concept and a thought. It is still experienced as a desire I suppose.
It seems to be the guiding principle behind this dialogue.

But then when I look closer at this – it's just a thought,eh?
But it is progressively seen through like an illusion.
Guiding principle – for who? Assuming a cause and an effect.

Arises – pop. Vanishes – pop.
No idea from where and no idea where it went back to. There is no telling.
All is well I suppose and DE takes the stage more and more it seems.

"Agreed, this is so liberating when seen through. Game changer is it not? "

Yes! Still learning to appreciate that. The change was subtle. The mind tries to grasp onto it again and label it "progress" but then again it doesn't hurt. It just arises and it vanishes. Doesn't stick. Life goes on.

The sensations labeled before as emotion still arise but there is way less story attached. There is a thought about cause and effect. X happened so Y emotion appeared. But this is just a story. It is seen. Noticing body sensations happen. Sensations recognized connected with the concept of "emotion" are more and more subtle.

There is fear that it is all scripting and self-deception.
That it cannot be this simple.
And yet – these are more thoughts about scripting, about scripted, about deception.
They popped and left leaving no trace whatsoever.

Interesting indeed.

"Please let me know the answer! :) "

Labeling them as "fish" or "seeing" or "hearing" or "feeling" is kind of making an image of a small "fish", but then again... It's just sensations. Something happening. But then again. Does it really happen? Experience is happening, but there is no telling what it is in reality.

There are only concepts.

Labels seeing, hearing, feeling, etc. Are also seen as concepts. Only communication for pointing, since what's the point of distinguishing between them all? Who distinguishes? Who decided the label?

So direct experience is just something happening. Something arises and vanishes and that's it.

"It makes total sense. How far can you trace the parts? Atoms, quarks? Is there maybe more? "

I don't directly experience atoms and quarks at the moment. More concepts? But then again when I really look at direct experience it's just stuff flickering. Phasing in and out.

Is there anything that remains?
Nothing seems to remain since it all changes.

So when I seemingly take the room I am inside it seems to be the same, but the attention is jumping from different places, and the room is not even here. Room is also a concept. There are just colors, lights, sounds, mental impressions, labels, etc.

So now the attachment is revealed – it's just reducing yourself to something that's devolving.
"It feels like devolving" – the thought arises.
"Why reduce experience to this if there is this rich narration going on?"
"Why abandon intellect for just raw direct experience, if direct experience is always here?"
"Why not use these filters to live? What's the point of dropping them?"
"Is clear seeing better than filtered seeing with preprocessed ideas and stories?"

These thoughts arose.

Oh, it's so interesting. Mind is basically speaking right now and saying all that.
It was noticed and let go of. Just dropped and disappeared.

I don't want to go more into concepts thought. Please let me know if I am straying too far from the destination which is clear seeing.

"More questions, great! Maybe a more pointed question would be: is there an experiencer or is there just experience happening? Do you feel you're a subject and there are objects apart from you? Or is life just happening? "

"Is there an experiencer or is there just experience happening?"

I'm not sure. When I look directly at what is... it's just experience happening.
Looking for an experiencer but haven't found one.
Experience happening is also a label.
What is experience?
Seeing, feeling, hearing, breathing etc...

"Do you feel you're a subject and there are objects apart from you?"

It was oh so obvious before that there is a subject and an object. Before the "path".
Now, the subject and object duality is subtle, but it's still here I think.
And when I look closer...
There is labeling of objects that arise, but does that drop?
Isn't that the function of the thoughts? Labeling happens but it's not mistaken for the content. So in and of itself, there is no subject and object. There is just the "experience" happening. Stuff happening. I am not sure how to communicate it more clearly, or precisely. It's literally just stuff happening haha.

Or is life just happening?

Life is happening without control.
It doesn't take that much time to realize that.
The seemingly under-control actions are also happening without control.
The intentions, the impulses, the reactions are all conditioned. All arise and vanish on their own. There is no control.

Should I go deeper with that somehow? Nothing else seems to appear when I look.

"Agreed, the concept is prominent in DE. Is everything interconnected with everything affecting everything else? Use DE for this and let me know what you find! "

It's recognized that it's just a concept, although it does describe the flow somehow. Nothing can exist without everything. There is no experiencer and experienced, only happening. And happening includes all simultaneously.

I cannot find either a connection or a non-connection.
It's all just a concept. Something is happening is the closest thing I can get to.

Connection implies that there must be non-connection possible, for they are just concepts. Imaginary play. What is the connection? Who cares to know, right? - these are thoughts arising. No content.
Just more mind playing a detective. Seeing that clearly.

I'll do the exercise from the next post and I'll post the findings next. :)

Thank you for your assistance.
Eternal gratitude,
Adam