May all be free

[Kaiho]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no permanent, separate agent, doer, observer, witness, or interior personal space divided from the rest of life. The personal pronoun "I" is simply a convention.

What are you looking for at LU?
I feel like I'm living in a dream that feels real, but glimpses of reality show me that it's not. To give one example, about a year ago, I had an experience in which the illusion of separation completely dissolved and everyone and everything was "me." It felt more real and true than anything has ever felt. It also recalled memories of being one with everything in very early childhood. This experience did not last. I know that it's impossible to go back to the past, because the past is a concept. I want to break free of the illusion of separation here and now.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like a guided conversation that will help me question cherished beliefs and assumptions that I don't even know I have. (Generally, I try to check my expectations at the door.) I read through the quotes on the app, and I think that interacting with a guide would be beneficial. I also think that the commitment to post every day would be helpful. My job demands a lot of time and attention, and sometimes that feels like an impediment to inquiry, but I'm sure that isn't true. Some compassion for the frustrations and struggles along this path would be helpful too!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been seeking for most of my life and have most experience with Zen, Theravada, and Tibetan Buddhist traditions: 14 years of daily meditation and multiple meditation retreats, including a 7-week silent retreat and 3 months at a Zen monastery. About 18 months ago, I found Angelo Dilullo, and this led me to inquiry and other nondual teachers, like Adyashanti. I have beliefs and assumptions about awakening, and I am willing to question ALL of them.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[poppyseed]

Hi Kaiho
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Kaiho]

Hi Rali
Thanks for offering to guide me! I'm ready to start, and I really appreciate it!

is that what you want me to call you?

You can call me Kaiho.

What time zone are in?

Eastern Standard. How about you?
Thanks again!
Kaiho

[poppyseed]

Hi Kaiho

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

Eastern Standard. How about you?

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage :)

I'm ready to start, and I really appreciate it!

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

[Kaiho]

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I’ll be free from the illusion that I’m a separate individual struggling against a world outside me, so I’ll experience more acceptance and less struggle against what is.
I’ll also be free from the illusion that I can fulfill myself as a separate individual, so there will be less focus on “me” and my likes and dislikes.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I don’t know entirely. I expect less sense of separation.
I expect more lightness and carefreeness due to a shift in identity and in the experience of self and world. I expect that thoughts will be more transparent—that I’ll be able to tell that the content of thought is not real, so I won’t get carried away by thoughts as often.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I don’t want to live the rest of my life without awakening to the nature of reality.

4. What are you hoping for?

I hope that previous realizations will stabilize.
I hope to experience some relief from fear of aging and death.
I’m hoping for truth, freedom from delusion, insight into reality, more ease in life, more compassion for others.

5. What is missing?

In the last few years, I feel that I’ve had realizations and non-abiding awakenings through meditation and inquiry, and I’m very aware that there is further to go.

Thanks again!

[poppyseed]

Hi Kaiho

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[Kaiho]

Is that OK with you?

Yes, I will acknowledge any other expectations that come up. I understand that expectations can cause me to miss the very subtle sift.

I've been working on responding to your other questions throughout the day. The earliest I'll be able to post my reply is after 4 pm EST (GMT-5).

Thank you!

[Kaiho]

If you look for the I, what is there?

My immediate response is to look behind my eyes, as if there’s a little person looking out at the world from behind my eyes. (In looking for an “I,” I’m looking for a permanent “self” that is perceiving all the fleeting sensory data.) I’m aware that that is a thought, and that this thought does not correspond to anything real. There’s no little person inside my head looking out from behind my eyes. Moreover, I have no idea where that thought came from. I can’t find anything that created that thought. It seemed to appear out of nowhere.

Then, I check for any sensory data— sensations, sights (e.g. colors), sounds, smells, or tastes—that might be a self. Sometimes there are sensations in the region behind my eyes, but these sensations change from moment to moment. There’s no self in these sensations.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

I test it. I look to see if there’s any doer moving my hands now. It seems like my hands are typing this on automatic. I can’t find an original impulse or decision to move or stop moving. It just happens. Movement starts, then pauses, then starts again all on its own.

When I ask if there’s a witness, it seems like there’s a center from which everything is being seen, observed. (I don’t know if “witness” is even the right word. Sometimes it seems like a video camera or a mirror, reflecting everything.) There have been short periods of time when this sense of a center has gone away (replaced by a sense of Oneness with everything), but right now the sense of a center is present. I believe this is also a thought.

Where exactly did you look?

Initially, thoughts came up, but the thoughts did not point to anything real. Then, I looked in sensory data—sensations, sights (e.g. colors), sounds, smells, and tastes.

What exactly did you find?

Just the sense data. No experiencer or perceiver.

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

As mentioned above, when you asked, “If you look for the I, what is there?” my first thought was to look behind my eyes. I quickly became aware that this was a thought and did not correspond to anything real. Then I looked to see if there were any sensations behind my eyes that might be a self. At first, there were no sensations at all behind my eyes. I investigated other sensations in my head and neck, but they were all passing sensations, not a self. I also investigated other sensory data. It was fairly easy to see that there was no self in sights, sounds, smells, or tastes. With a sound, there was no dividing line between the sound and a perceiver. There was only the sound and no perceiver could be found in it. Same was true of smell and taste. Vision is a little more complicated because there is a thought-created sense of a boundary between the body and what's outside the body. This boundary is a thought, however. It is not real.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kaiho
You seem to be on the right track, but before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises.
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).
So, there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing, and seeing that there is nothing. Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[Kaiho]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for these clarifications. I think I understand.

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Yes, I agree that I could only be 100% certain of the color of my socks by looking.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

“An apple” is not actually known. The color (red) and a thought about “apple” can be found in actual experience. The smell and taste that we label "apple" can also be found in actual experience, but “apple” cannot be found in actual experience. “Apple” is a label.

Is it clear that I understand this?

With gratitude,
Liam

[poppyseed]

Hi Liam

“An apple” is not actually known. The color (red) and a thought about “apple” can be found in actual experience. The smell and taste that we label "apple" can also be found in actual experience, but “apple” cannot be found in actual experience. “Apple” is a label.

Yes!! Very good! “Apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste) in general. Clear?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

[Kaiho]

Hi Rali,

“Apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste) in general. Clear?

Yes, "object" and "apple" are both labels that point to what is seen (color), heard (sound), felt (sensation), smelled (odor), and tasted (taste). An actual apple cannot be found in direct experience. An object cannot be found in direct experience either.

Eating apple custard cake
Seeing a bowl with apple custard cake, simply = color/ brown (seeing)
Smelling apple custard cake, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the smoothness and coolness of the bowl, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting apple custard cake, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the fork in the bowl, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about eating the apple custard cake, simply = thought (thinking)

Eating an orange
Seeing the orange, simply = color (seeing)
Feeling the skin of the orange, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the peeling of the orange and biting into the orange, simply = sound (hearing)
Smelling the orange, simply = smell (smelling)
Tasting the orange, simply = taste (tasting)
Thought about eating the orange, simply = thought (thinking)

Walking in the woods
Seeing the woods, simply = color (seeing)
Hearing leaves crunch underfoot, simply = sound (hearing)
Feeling air currents, simply = sensation (feeling)
Smelling fresh air after rain, simply = smell (smelling)
Thought about the woods, simply = thought (thinking)

[poppyseed]

Hi Liam

Yes, "object" and "apple" are both labels that point to what is seen (color), heard (sound), felt (sensation), smelled (odor), and tasted (taste). An actual apple cannot be found in direct experience. An object cannot be found in direct experience either.

Very good!

Walking in the woods
Seeing the woods, simply = color (seeing)
Hearing leaves crunch underfoot, simply = sound (hearing)
Feeling air currents, simply = sensation (feeling)
Smelling fresh air after rain, simply = smell (smelling)
Thought about the woods, simply = thought (thinking)

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.
How does it feel to see what actually is?

Seeing a bowl with apple custard cake, simply = color/ brown (seeing)

“Brown” is still a label for colour/seeing.
There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.
When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?
Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
Love
Rali

[Kaiho]

Hi Rali,

How does it feel to see what actually is?

Everything seems less fixed and more fluid without the labels/judgments.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

The color red.

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

The color red is experienced.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?

No, the label ‘GREEN’ does not have a one-to-one correspondence with reality. This is clear when we consider that different languages have different labels for colors.

Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

The label ‘GREEN’ suggests something else (a different color) than what is here now.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

"Green" is simply a label that overlays the actual experience of the color red.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No, the redness is unaffected by the labels ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD.’

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The labels have no impact on "reality."

Thank you,
Liam

[poppyseed]

Hi Liam

Very good!

OK… For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?
Love
Rali