Need to be sure

[UlisesLima]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? The self is a construct, it is a useless byproduct of working memory. It's a tale told, an inflated fallacy of separation from what is.

What are you looking for at LU? Certainty. It's happening, there's no denying it.

Bubbles of uncertainty keep coming up.

1) is this it or a clever delusion?
2) if it is then what now?
3) if it is not then what are the next steps?
3) if it is so simple how is this not widely seen?

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Guidance, certainty of what is, a chance to compare, challenge this perception that it has already happened, understanding of the size of implications of this thing, a chance to make sure that this state is real and cannot be a massive delusion

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Reading mostly (Eckhart Tolle, Ciaran Healy's posts, Hervé Clerc's book describing his experience and references to it in Emmanuel Carrère's work), a bit of breathing work, self-hypnosis, random moments of overwhelming calmness and peace

read Gateless Gatecrashers, something might have popped

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Magdalena]

Hello Ulises (would you like me to call you “Ulises” or some other name?),

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Magdalena and I can be your guide if you like.

So, to begin with, let’s get over a couple of formalities.
Please confirm that you’ve read and are OK with the following:
1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/regi ... sclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/abo ... #faq-1041
Also, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which we will need in our conversation: viewtopic.php?t=660

You’ve said you want

Certainty. It's happening, there's no denying it

because

Bubbles of uncertainty keep coming up.

I hear you.
What is it that’s happening?
What is it that there is uncertainty about?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

[UlisesLima]

Hi Magdalena,

Thanks for taking the time to do this, and merry Xmas if you're celebrating.

You can call me Alex.

Please confirm that you’ve read and are OK with the following:
1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/regi ... sclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/abo ... #faq-1041

I have read and am OK with 1),2),and 3).

What is it that’s happening?

That's the funny part, nothing really. What's not happening is mental chatter, or rather the compulsion to engage with it. I feel calm.

What is it that there is uncertainty about?

Can this state last? Is it even real, or do I want this so much I am somehow tricking myself into believing it is real? Granted, that'd be difficult, I'm not believing anything and nothing is real as this feels more like removing something than inventing it.

[Magdalena]

Hello Alex,

That's the funny part, nothing really. What's not happening is mental chatter, or rather the compulsion to engage with it. I feel calm.

Sounds good to me. ;-)

Tell me:
Who has made it happen?
Who's pushed that mental chatter to the background?
Who's in charge of all this?

Can this state last? Is it even real, or do I want this so much I am somehow tricking myself into believing it is real?

Has there been a shift - a moment when this happened?

... this feels more like removing something than inventing it.

What is it that's been/being removed?

Is the seeking still going on?

[UlisesLima]

Hi Magdalena,

Who has made it happen?

Nobody. 'It' happened, but it's not really anything, more like a non-event.

Who's pushed that mental chatter to the background?

Same, nobody. Mental chatter didn't change or move. Chatter might be the wrong word, there is no dialogue. It just matters less or not at all. To whom? There's nobody to pay heed to it.

Who's in charge of all this?

Nobody again. Thoughts occur on their own, they aren't stirred or managed.

Has there been a shift - a moment when this happened?

Yeah while reading one of the dialogues, it became clear all of a sudden, but also quietly. There wasn't a loud anything, just a moment of extended clarity that hasn't ended. Maybe the intensity of the clarity varies.

What is it that's been/being removed?

The idea that there is an 'Alex' that's somehow separate from what's going on right this moment.

Is the seeking still going on?

Nope, it's more an exploration of whatever this means, there's no seeking of anything beyond perceiving.

[Magdalena]

Hello again, Alex,

Thanks for your replies.
Can you say more about this "moment of extended clarity" as you put it? How did it feel when it was happening? And after?

And what about those questions you posted in your intro? Could you elaborate on what exactly bothers you right now?

[UlisesLima]

Hi Magdalena, thanks for following up

Can you say more about this "moment of extended clarity" as you put it?

Yeah it feels like I can be in the moment, as in in each moment, without getting tangled in the self. There's no need to connect dots that aren't there to be connected.

How did it feel when it was happening?

Calm most of all. No big wow moment or anything, it just felt like there was more space and time for things to happen.

And after?

Pretty much the same as now, calmer, without the compulsion to weave events and thoughts into a threat that isn't there.

And what about those questions you posted in your intro?

1) is this it or a clever delusion?

- Irrelevant, there's no 'it' really, and nobody to delude/no one and nothing creating the delusion

2) if it is then what now?

- Also not relevant, now is now it doesn't need a what

3) if it is not then what are the next steps?

- Same, no need for steps or a further goal, now is now, what comes after will be another thing, there's no reason to want to tack on more significance to anything

3) if it is so simple how is this not widely seen?

- There's almost an addiction to the promise of more and better in the future, which is antithetic to seeing the self for what it is, or rather the lack of such a thing as the self

Could you elaborate on what exactly bothers you right now?

Nothing comes to mind

[Magdalena]

Morning, Alex,

Thank you for sharing this with me.

We have a few so-called final questions (even though what's being experienced continues and evolves in various ways, and is not necessarily final), after answering which you will have access to a private Facebook group and a private forum in which to socialise with others who are experiencing in this way.

Would you like me to send you the questions now, or is there anything else you'd like to discuss before I do?

[UlisesLima]

Morning Magdalena!

Would you like me to send you the questions now

Yes please

even though what's being experienced continues and evolves in various ways, and is not necessarily final

Is this what is explored in the group?

[Magdalena]

Hello again Alex,

Is this what is explored in the group?

You can explore any topic you like as well as find info on zoom calls with senior guides and other modalities that some people find useful.


Here are the questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer all the questions from your current experience - as you see things now.

[UlisesLima]

Hi again Magdalena,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no such thing. There never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The self is a construct, a tool. It starts early enough not to remember exactly when, maybe even once a child is named. That snowballs into a perceived separation from the rest of reality.

The way the self works is that it is a narrative, not that different from a thought, unto which a lot of experiences are attached. That idea becomes identified with what a human person is supposed to be beyond the purely biological and the perception. So it starts with the name, grows, and is thought to encompass all experiences, and to be a project that needs to be expanded and glorified.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The emperor is naked. If there is no self then there is no path dependency, no need to be a certain way or remain consistent.
The main difference is also the separation from investment in the idea that enlightenment is something great or desirable. That in itself was another way to glorify the self. As there is no self there is no enlightenment, only calm.

The past few days have been very calm, with occasional moments of confusion, where it felt like a thought was taking too much importance, but that waned quite fast as well. Simple moments were beautiful because they were unhurried.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Can't remember exactly, it seems like the contradiction between the idea of the self and its lack of substance did it.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decision is something that happens, a course of action adopted because it is to be. This morning, having breakfast on the way to the office, picking a specific sandwich, it just happened, there was no chatter, no second thinking.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention simply is, it might be a thought accompanying an action and containing context. Example: Walking the dog. An actions that has a clear function and could seem to follow an ulterior goal or necessity, but is actually happening for itself. Dog walking, human walking with dog. Whether or not an intention is attributed doesn't affect the action.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Choice seems to arise when there are multiple options. However there is no one doing the choosing. Two different sandwiches on the shelf this morning, one is taken and consumed. It's an immediate process that can be labelled a choice but doesn't need to be to occur.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control is an illusion. It's an idea that there is a way to stir what happens. But who is in control? And of what? Events occur, they can be loaded with thoughts and the idea of a certain thing being best, but does that really happen because of the thought running along with it? Example: walking the dog, or with the dog, linked by a piece of rope. Is anything or anyone in control?

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Events happen, thoughts happen, there is no what that makes anything happen. Ascribing a cause is a thought, but it also happens on its own.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There is no me to be responsible.

[Magdalena]

Alex, thank you for your lovely answers. I will now share them with other guides and be in touch soon.

[Magdalena]

Hello again, Alex,

There are no more questions from other guides, which means that you have crashed the Gateless Gate (which is a story anyway ;-) ).

You will soon be receiving an admin message re joining our Facebook groups, and other matters. Feel free to explore the private LU forum you will be able to access once your name has turned blue, join in any group discussions on FB, or make use of LU online support groups.

We have three of them, and they meet on Zoom – do contact the organisers for extra info, links and schedules:
1) Vince Schubert runs one on the weekends. Contact: vinceschubert@gmail.com
2) Luchana and Lubo run one on Thursdays. Contact: Luchana at luchanauzunova@gmail.com
3) Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Contact: admin@ilonaciunaite.com

[UlisesLima]

Wow, thank you so much Magdalena! Have a lovely day, and thanks again for the questions and the attention you paid to the answers.

which means that you have crashed the Gateless Gate (which is a story anyway ;-) ).

I suspected it hehe

[Magdalena]

You are most welcome, and see you on the other side. ;-)