Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

[WhoIsAsking]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? While a sense of me, a sense of I, can arise… Those senses are just thoughts and feelings. Things that can be witnessed. They don’t equate to a little demigod controlling a destiny in this universe.

What are you looking for at LU? I am looking for help in noticing that thoughts are just thoughts, feelings are just feelings, and a sense of me is just a sense. Instead of being caught up believing I am a separate entity, I want to experience what is real.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I expect to find pointers, reminders, or helpful tips to open my eyes to what is real… To see past illusions that I haven’t thought to question. And to get to that place where what is seen can’t be unseen.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I have spent decades slowly waking up from illusion, deconstructing previous beliefs, noticing what is really here. I haven’t subscribed to any particular teacher or teaching. I’ve never gone to any organized retreats.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Bluejay]

Hi,

I'm Henri. What would you like me to call you?

I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

Some tips for using the forum:

- Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical issue.

- When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to begin, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?
2. How will you change?
3. What do you want or expect to be different?
4. What is missing right now that you will have when there is a shift?

Note: If you feel like you don't have expectations, please look deeper, as there is almost always something there.

Enjoy! :)

[WhoIsAsking]

Hi Henri - you can call me Jay. Sorry for not responding sooner. After it took a while to get my first response, I stopped checking in every day. Yes, I would love to go through this process with you. I'll write more in reply to your first questions by the end of the day today. Thank you!

[WhoIsAsking]

Hi again, Henri!

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?

In one sense, nothing will change. I expect that the “I” that seems to be me will continue on unaffected. The thoughts and feelings that arise spontaneously now, will continue to arise spontaneously in the future. But in another sense, I expect “life” will change upon realizing that these thoughts and feelings aren’t me, but are just things that arise within existence, within reality, within awareness, within me… Perhaps occasionally these “I thoughts” will be a little more enlightened. 😊

2. How will you change?

I won’t change at all. But I will recognize that the “I” that I am is the vast spaciousness in which all these thoughts and feelings arise. When I identify as the thoughts and feelings, I have a human experience. But when I identify as the vast spaciousness, directly experiencing the thoughts and feelings, I can experience the “Jay illusion” with acceptance and appreciation, without believing that I am Jay, or that there is a separate character or demigod called Jay.

3. What do you want or expect to be different?

I want to live the realization. I want to recognize the beauty of thoughts and feelings popping into and out of existence, without believing them to be me. And I want to paradoxically play the role of the Jay character, but with a faint knowing that I am playing a role of someone who doesn’t exist. To use religious language, I want to recognize there is no “I,” yet fully embrace the “I” character – being fully god and fully man.

4. What is missing right now that you will have when there is a shift?

A more abiding sense of freedom, peace, and joy. Each moment I will be the awareness, the acceptance, the appreciation of all that arises. Thoughts and feelings will continue to arise and fade away, but without believing that “I” am the “Jay” thinking and feeling them, they will be allowed, and appreciated. That sounds like freedom, like peace, like joy. I think that’s what’s missing much of the time. And that’s what I believe / hope will be there following a shift. Or what I will notice is already here once I identify less with the “Jay character.”

[Bluejay]

Hello Jay!

Thank you for your answers to the expectation questions.

Hi Henri - you can call me Jay. Sorry for not responding sooner. After it took a while to get my first response, I stopped checking in every day. Yes, I would love to go through this process with you. I'll write more in reply to your first questions by the end of the day today. Thank you!

You can subscribe to this topic so you can get an email notification each time I reply. It should be automatically enabled.

Now, how familiar are you with direct experience?

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

1. You can think of the answer and try to remember

2. You can take a look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be crucial that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in this very moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[WhoIsAsking]

I’m clear about what you mean by direct experience. Looking forward to this process with you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bluejay]

Great!

Here are two pointers to start with. One is during the day and one takes 20 minutes.

Any questions? Let me know.

First one

You may be familiar with these already, or they may feel elementary. If that's the case, just see it as an opportunity to practice being mindful.

I'd like you to try this as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order on each line.

Also pay attention to how the mind wants to label, judge, interpret, and constantly make sense of things.

Second one

Let's now explore how the mind labels experience. This takes about 20 minutes and you will need pen and paper.

This exercise is broken into 2 x 10 minute parts. For each 10 minute part pay attention to any bodily sensation (is there any tightening, or any relaxing?)

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

- I am sitting on a chair
- I am hearing a clock ticking
- I am looking at a computer screen
- I am feeling hungry

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the second ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”.

Describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

- Sitting on a chair
- Typing
- Breathing
- Blinking
- Hearing the clock
- Hunger

(Watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Enjoy! :)

[WhoIsAsking]

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order on each line.

Hearing the ticking of the clock, simply = sound
Thought about how this exercise is going, simply = thought
Seeing the grass outside my window, simply = image/color
Smelling soap after washing my hands, simply = smell
Feeling the chair against my legs, simply = sensation
Feeling the breeze from the ceiling fan, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second felt more true. Things really seemed to just happen. Even when “I decided” to do something, that deciding itself seemed to just happen. Removing the “I” from the narrative made the statements more authentic.

2. What is here without labels?

Just what is happening. Or at least what is noticed within what is happening. Less of a story about who or why, good or bad. Just what is arising.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The labels are just extra thoughts. I see a label arising. But no one corresponding that the label of “I.” But what I experienced… sound, image, sensation, thought… I could actually notice them arising

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

No, I don’t think I noticed any differences in the body. For example, in both parts of the exercise, I noticed some discomfort in my mouth. And I noticed the feeling of my feet on the floor. But even when I was writing “I feel my feet on the floor,” that didn’t seem any more personal than when I was writing “feeling feet on the floor.”

[Bluejay]

Alright. Nicely done!

Next, let's explore thoughts :)

Feel free to take your time with this. I'll be back tomorrow!

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear.

Ignore the content of thoughts and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Do you control where attention goes?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

Let me know what you find :)

[WhoIsAsking]

It’s been eye opening to sit and watch the thoughts appear. Tomorrow is especially busy at work. I’ll try to respond to your questions then, but it may be the next day. Thank you for your patience!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bluejay]

👍

[WhoIsAsking]

Let me know what you find :)

Here we go. Hope my responses below are still clear without using the quote function for every separate one. Let me know if that makes it harder to follow, and I can repost with the quotes.

Where are they coming from and going to? – like little soap bubbles, they just pop into existence, and pop out of existence. Where do they come from? I could give it a word… emptiness, awareness, stillness… but my direct experience is just “here is a new thought” and “now it’s gone”

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Generally, no. there were times I tried to plant a seed for a certain kind of thought. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t. But if I back up, where did the intention to plant that seed come from? It just arose. No source was experienced

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? I don’t think so. Anything that it seems I could do to make a different thought appear seems to be just another thought. And where did that come from? It just seemed to arise.

Can you predict the next thought? Absolutely not. Of that I am completely convinced

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts? I can try to control the kind of thoughts I have. But at best there is limited control. And that control seems to be an illusion (a thought). Fully convinced that I can’t limit the arising of thoughts to only pleasant ones

Do you control where attention goes? There is intention to control attention. But that intention appears to be just another thought, arising from nothing, and passing away into nothing. Regardless, the intention isn’t all-powerful. Eventually, attention falls where it falls.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts? Same as above. I can try. But that trying is usually ineffectual. And the trying appears to be just a thought

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought? The thoughts that appear just appear. And they last as long as they last. And they fade away when they fade away

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? No. I see no evidence of a me that can control what thoughts “I” think. The thoughts can’t be controlled or prevented

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'? It’s just another thought. I could never predict based on what thoughts arise now, what different thoughts will arise in five minutes. It’s automatic, yet it’s a mystery.

[Bluejay]

Here we go. Hope my responses below are still clear without using the quote function for every separate one. Let me know if that makes it harder to follow, and I can repost with the quotes.

It's slightly less clear without using the quote function, but it's fine. Using quote function is preferred if it's not a lot of extra work.

Generally, no. there were times I tried to plant a seed for a certain kind of thought. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t. But if I back up, where did the intention to plant that seed come from? It just arose. No source was experienced

You started this paragraph with generally, which means sometimes yes, but you ended up with the opposite conclusion. So is it 100% clear that you don't make any particular thought appear?

Also good to note that you can be clear that thoughts arise from nothing, but you may still feel like you're thinking them.

I can try to control the kind of thoughts I have. But at best there is limited control. And that control seems to be an illusion (a thought). Fully convinced that I can’t limit the arising of thoughts to only pleasant ones

Can you predict this control before it happens?

Where did you learn what thoughts need to be controlled or changed? Did you decide to take that in and apply it?

There is intention to control attention. But that intention appears to be just another thought, arising from nothing, and passing away into nothing. Regardless, the intention isn’t all-powerful. Eventually, attention falls where it falls.

You still seem to feel like you have some control over attention. It's crucial that you are 100% clear here.

Close your eyes, can you predict where attention moves next before it moves?

Did you predict the intention to control attention?

Is there anywhere else where you feel like you control attention, even just a little bit?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought? The thoughts that appear just appear. And they last as long as they last. And they fade away when they fade away

I'm pretty sure of your answer, but notice you weren't so clear. Thoughts can appear and do what they want, but there can still be the sense that you can pick and choose sometimes.

[WhoIsAsking]

You started this paragraph with generally, which means sometimes yes, but you ended up with the opposite conclusion. So is it 100% clear that you don't make any particular thought appear?

Yes, it's 100% clear. And you're right, there can still be the feeling of being to the one doing the thinking. But I see that too is just a thought. And I'm 100% clear that I can't control that thought either. :)

Can you predict this control before it happens?
Where did you learn what thoughts need to be controlled or changed? Did you decide to take that in and apply it?

Absolutely not. And where did I learn what thoughts needed to be controlled or changed? I don't know. But from this new perspective, that question sounds like "where did I learn to have brown hair and brown eyes?" There may be an answer, but in each case, there is no "me" who is in charge. "I" didn't learn what thoughts needed to be controlled. It's just what's happening

Close your eyes, can you predict where attention moves next before it moves?
Did you predict the intention to control attention?

Definitely not. No ability to predict where attention remains or moves. No ability to predict even the intention. I'm convinced

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I'm clear that I can't. And as you say, I'm also clear that it can feel like I can pick and choose, at least a little. But that feeling is another thought, which I certainly can't pick or choose

[Bluejay]

And you're right, there can still be the feeling of being to the one doing the thinking. But I see that too is just a thought. And I'm 100% clear that I can't control that thought either. :)

Let's explore this.

Closing your eyes may help. Notice when a thought appears, where is the sense that there is a thinker?

What is the thinker? A sensation? An image?

I'm clear that I can't. And as you say, I'm also clear that it can feel like I can pick and choose, at least a little. But that feeling is another thought, which I certainly can't pick or choose

Whenever you have the opportunity, keep looking for this chooser and how it happens. When it is fully seen, it will be absolutely clear. That's why it's important to keep looking over and over so the system gets it. It becomes experiential.

Here's another pointer:

The aim of this pointer is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

Enjoy! :)