Hello! I could use some help!

[Danial]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' -
what do you understand by this?
I understand this to mean that 'I' is just a label pointing to a controller or experiencer of experience that isn't actually there.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to get out of this self-referential me-me-me mode of being.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't really expect anything, but it'd be nice to have someone with experience help me past my sticking points.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and
inquiry?
Not much. A few years of very light meditation on and off. Seeking has been a general mind-set for me, I think. Like, just looking for an end to suffering.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently
held beliefs about 'self?
12/10. It may take some time though to get those answers - there's a lot of stuff going on in my mind that can cover these answers. But I WILL get them.

[poppyseed]

Hi Danial
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Danial]

Hey Rali, nice to meet you.

(is that what you want me to call you?)

Call me Hawram, actually.

What time zone are in?

EST (GMT-5)

Yeah I'm good to go. Lets do this.

[poppyseed]

Hi Hawram

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

EST (GMT-5)

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage.

Yeah I'm good to go. Lets do this.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Danial]

I'm subscribed.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I don't know. Based on reading peoples accounts in the gatecrashers suggested reading, I'll be able to stand on my own, and be self assured and stop chasing this thing I feel that's missing. One guys account in particular, he was an older dude, was that he was shocked that this is what he'd wasted his entire life chasing - and that people who are deep into self improvement should be shown this so they get over it.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I don't know what to expect - but having had experiences in the past, I hope to be more self assured and in the present. Not in my head in fantasy land.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I don't want to go mad. Or see no-self but have my ego cling on super hard and get super dark and nihilistic.

4. What are you hoping for?

I hope this will help me change and move past these repetitive and cyclical thoughts and habits I've been struggling with all my life. To be a better person for me.

5. What is missing?

A realization of something, I guess.

[poppyseed]

Hey Hawram
Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I don't want to go mad. Or see no-self but have my ego cling on super hard and get super dark and nihilistic.

Is the ego more real than the self? Why would the one stay and the other disappear? Also why would “you” go mad? It’s not like the self ever existed and it disappeared, it was never there - EVER!
A fear usually is there to protect us from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your ”humanity”, “becoming mad”. But let’s be clear here… how can something that has never existed change?
You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa? Did the character Santa died or it was a simple drop of belief?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary…

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[Danial]

Is that OK with you?

That's ok with me.

Is the ego more real than the self? Why would the one stay and the other disappear? Also why would “you” go mad?

Yeah that's a good point. It's the same thing. I don't really know - I mean if it is indeed a subtle change I think it'll be fine. I had a psychedelic experience in mind, like a drug experience that never ends. But I'll set that aside.

When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa? Did the character Santa died or it was a simple drop of belief?

Christmas didn't change, no. I suppose I was sad for a bit but I got over it. Some of the magic was gone, but I appreciated my parents more. It was a drop of a belief - he was never real - he didn't die.

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

A bit of anxiety comes up. That's the thing - I don't know where to look. I'm looking at these words as I type them. I'm not really thinking anything. There's a feeling of being. My cat came and sat on my chest, a bunch of thoughts came and went and now I think I'm distracted. I close my eyes and probe around. I have the thought that it's obvious I exist, I'm looking for myself right now. However, it's like an eye trying to look at itself, it's impossible.

[poppyseed]

Hey Hawram

I had a psychedelic experience in mind, like a drug experience that never ends. But I'll set that aside.

Psychedelic experiences are just states. Present moment is just one present moment, and has anything to do with a duration of a certain state. A state is a condition or mode of being as with regards to circumstances, not all the time. Anyway, I hope it will make more sense later…

A bit of anxiety comes up. That's the thing - I don't know where to look. I'm looking at these words as I type them. I'm not really thinking anything. There's a feeling of being. My cat came and sat on my chest, a bunch of thoughts came and went and now I think I'm distracted. I close my eyes and probe around. I have the thought that it's obvious I exist, I'm looking for myself right now. However, it's like an eye trying to look at itself, it's impossible.

Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises.
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[Danial]

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Right.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

I think I understand. So essentially, you're trying to get me to pay close attention to my experience, and understand it in a really deep and personal way, without getting caught up in trying to use someone else's words to describe it. To answer your question explicitly, no 'apple' is not known in the same way that the color and texture and so on are known. It's just a label that says nothing about the real thing in experience.

[poppyseed]

Hi Hawram

I think I understand. So essentially, you're trying to get me to pay close attention to my experience, and understand it in a really deep and personal way, without getting caught up in trying to use someone else's words to describe it. To answer your question explicitly, no 'apple' is not known in the same way that the color and texture and so on are known. It's just a label that says nothing about the real thing in experience.

Yes!! “Apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

[Danial]

Hey Rali,

Yes!! “Apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Clear, but one question. Aren't hearing, seeing, etc also just labels?

Feeling the pressure of my bed against my back, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing my dog bark, simply = sound (hearing)
Seeing hands typing on a keyboard, simply = image/color (seeing)
Tasting the spices of food I had in my mouth, simply = taste (tasting)
Feeling the pressure of my feet against my bed, simply = sensation (feeling)
Seeing my cat, simply = image/color (seeing)
Thinking about a girl I know, simply = thought (thinking)
Feeling heat in my chest/abdoment, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing a car in the distance, simply = sound (hearing)
Feeling pressure and heat in my head, simply = sensation (feeling)
Seeing a laptop screen, simply = image/color (seeing)

[poppyseed]

Hi Hawram

Clear, but one question. Aren't hearing, seeing, etc also just labels?

Very good! And yes they are – we call them DE labels. You see there is nothing wrong with labels when you see their true nature. The problem is that some labels point to existing stuff (e.g. "seeing", “table”), others are useful in communication but cannot be found in experience (like “country”) and third point to non existing stuff (“Santa”, “I”, “Superman”). Do you get the difference?

Feeling the pressure of my bed against my back, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing my dog bark, simply = sound (hearing)
Seeing hands typing on a keyboard, simply = image/color (seeing)
Tasting the spices of food I had in my mouth, simply = taste (tasting)
Feeling the pressure of my feet against my bed, simply = sensation (feeling)
Seeing my cat, simply = image/color (seeing)
Thinking about a girl I know, simply = thought (thinking)
Feeling heat in my chest/abdoment, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing a car in the distance, simply = sound (hearing)
Feeling pressure and heat in my head, simply = sensation (feeling)
Seeing a laptop screen, simply = image/color (seeing)

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.
How does it feel to see what actually is?

OK… For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?
Love
Rali

[Danial]

Hey Rali,

Quick side note before I answer your questions. Last night I had an intense dream where themes of isolation and loneliness were very prevalent. I'm wondering if this work we're doing is related to me having that dream. Then, after I got up, that painful feeling was replaced by a feeling of deep gratitude for my manager and current job circumstances as well as my family. Anyways, I wanted to know what you thought about that/if that's normal, or whatever.

Very good! And yes they are – we call them DE labels. You see there is nothing wrong with labels when you see their true nature. The problem is that some labels point to existing stuff (e.g. "seeing", “table”), others are useful in communication but cannot be found in experience (like “country”) and third point to non existing stuff (“Santa”, “I”, “Superman”). Do you get the difference?

I get the difference.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

Honestly, it doesn't feel like anything special. Maybe a very very slight undertone of calmness.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

Nope, just the thought itself.

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

No, but there is emotion associated with the thought/judgement of the thought with an "I" attached. For instance, when I think of a girl I used to love, I get a pang of sadness and think "I don't like this feeling". But that's on top of the initial thought, which on its own has no separate self thinking it. Just the thought itself appearing in consciousness.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No, thoughts appear out of nowhere and of their own accord. The thought that appears simply is, I can't make a different thought appear. Even that is a thought that simply appeared. I wish I could select from only pleasant thoughts :')

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No and no.

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

I would say the circumstances. So for this specific thought, I read that and thought about it. Flow of thoughts cannot be changed.

Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

They just appear - not 'from' anywhere. They're just appearing and fizzling out given time, sometime they take longer sometime they take less. They appear randomly.

Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last?

No I could not. I did not know while would be second or fourth - they simply appeared. It is not possible to prevent a thought from appearing. I cannot stop a thought in the middle. It lasts as long as it lasts, and then I get the thought that the thought has ended, or that was its own single thought.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

It appears that the thoughts are in their own blocks, and they have separate subject material or whatever, but it's just a stream of thoughts.

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Thoughts are not 100% true.
You're not.

[poppyseed]

Hi Hawram

Quick side note before I answer your questions. Last night I had an intense dream where themes of isolation and loneliness were very prevalent. I'm wondering if this work we're doing is related to me having that dream. Then, after I got up, that painful feeling was replaced by a feeling of deep gratitude for my manager and current job circumstances as well as my family. Anyways, I wanted to know what you thought about that/if that's normal, or whatever.

To me it looks like fears that you haven’t processed. Thoughts are protecting the imaginary self (the status quo) by threatening with loneliness and isolation. Well we already discussed this – I promise you when realisation happens, the effects are quite subtle; it is just a subtle shift in perception!

No, but there is emotion associated with the thought/judgement of the thought with an "I" attached. For instance, when I think of a girl I used to love, I get a pang of sadness and think "I don't like this feeling".

So emotion = sensation + thought
We’ll explore the nature of sensations next.
“When I think of a girl I used to love” – that is a memory right?
Usually we believe that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.
Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it. Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

But that's on top of the initial thought, which on its own has no separate self thinking it. Just the thought itself appearing in consciousness.

Are you going to tell me next that you are consciousness in which everything appears, the screen, awareness, or something like that? Or that you’re Brahman? Ultimate Bliss?
Or that you’re Light? Love? Energy? Emptiness? Sorry to be so blunt, but what you’re saying is concept upon concept upon concept. And that is why we agreed to leave all teachings aside during the inquiry.

Is consciousness like a container for thoughts/experiences? What is consciousness? Some kind of lone witness? What does the term mean, or refer to?
What does it look like – form/colour; does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses? Is there consciousness/awareness or “aware-ing”/knowing/being/noticing?
Now let’s LOOK even deeper… where does consciousness stop and the thoughts start, is there a visible border? Are there ”solid” thoughts floating around in “consciousness”- “arising, appearing and disappearing”? Are the thinker/consciousness, thought, and thinking separate? Can there be consciousness without objects? Can there be objects (thoughts , tastes…) without consciousness? Is consciousness ever actually experienced or is it just an idea, an abstraction? Please LOOK, don’t intellectualise, imagine or remember from your previous experience!

Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject? Is it even a human?
Is it what you've taken as "you"?

Love
Rali

[Danial]

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

A memory is a thought.
It's not 'made of' anything.
I don't know when it appears.
There is no difference, just different labels.
It's not known that a memory refers to something that has happened.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It's not made of anything.
I don't know - when prompted?
No difference.
It's not known.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

There is no difference between the thoughts, just different content.

Are you going to tell me next that you are consciousness in which everything appears, the screen, awareness, or something like that? Or that you’re Brahman? Ultimate Bliss?
Or that you’re Light? Love? Energy? Emptiness?

Heheh... sorry :')

Now let’s LOOK even deeper… where does consciousness stop and the thoughts start, is there a visible border? Are there ”solid” thoughts floating around in “consciousness”- “arising, appearing and disappearing”? Are the thinker/consciousness, thought, and thinking separate? Can there be consciousness without objects? Can there be objects (thoughts , tastes…) without consciousness? Is consciousness ever actually experienced or is it just an idea, an abstraction?

No border.
No solid thoughts.
They are not separate it's one thing.
No.
No.
It's an idea.

Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject? Is it even a human?
Is it what you've taken as "you"?

It just feels like being.
Just being.
As being.
That aliveness is not an object or subject, it's not a human.
It's what I've taken as me.