What about me?

[hoppingfrog3]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Understanding of what SELF actually means is what I hope to accomplish by coming here. I have read many ideas about this concept and I would like to know the truth for myself. It appears that I am a single entity living a life in which things that happen were my own doing and are my responsibility- but I also see at times how that can be false.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for guidance from someone who knows for themselves. I feel that the accountability put on me by working with another person will be useful as on my own I read too much and DO NOTHING. Even with the incredibly strong desire I have to JUST WAKE UP, I find I have no willpower to *do* what I'm supposed to and there are endless excuses I can dream up for this. They'll all be valid but I see they're just excuses. It is extremely frustrating to see myself behave like this but feel that I have no ability to control it and yet I feel utterly responsible and totally miserable. I've been stuck like this for years it seems, though if I am very honest I have changed in some ways very slowly.
I believe I am blocked off from my emotional experience. Do I just doubt myself? Am I just crazy? I am aware of a deep mistrust of myself that doesn't actually make any sense. Can I be helped to let this go?
I have (I believe) incredible insight into myself from the intellectual side; I see my behavior patterns and I see how they began but I am unable to free myself from them. I just relive the memories over and over and feel like a horrible person. I can forgive others, but never myself. How can I be free of THIS pattern? I know I am not that person or that now I would do something different but I am still forced to feel terrible forever (or so it seems). And this can be the stupidest little things! I am extremely stuck on seeing myself as outside all of the rest. Thinking about it so closely now, it appears some sort of specialness I give myself, that I am the one un-helpable person on this planet.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I try very hard to NOT expect. Expectations are insidious, however, and I am quite sure that I expect to feel/see/know a DIFFERENCE in my worldview. *Knowing* with my brain and even the seeing up to this point has not helped me very much at all. I would like to feel like I am a useful human being. I don't expect to suddenly understand the meaning in life or point of being alive, but that would be nice (haha!). I would expect a sense of being OKAY finally. To stop being chained by the pain that I can CLEARLY SEE has no purpose, no use, is not even legitimate. Why can't I let it go?

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've dabbled a bit since about 2012. I tried New Age stuff, I tried a program for letting go of beliefs which while I mostly failed at, I did release the cause of my depression and I now can see through any attempt to be a victim clearly, but no idea how I did it and I can't seem to have that success with any other issues. Recent years I studied the Perennial Philosophy in a sort of comparative way. The last year I have tried to build a Buddhist mediation practice. Recently I attended a 10 day Goenka retreat and it has really reinforced my commitment to knowing anatta/dukkha/anicca fully and completely, somehow, despite my seeming attempts at self-sabotage! :)

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[hoppingfrog3]

Well guys, I think I figured it out. I read through Gateless Gatecrashers and picked up a few pieces of the puzzle. I read a few threads here and followed along with the person whose thread it was and did exercises.
But what finally made it clear was I was watching a video on Vince’s YouTube channel ( can’t remember how I got there?) and the video with Paul Simpson made it so perfectly clear. He pretty much took the bells I thought would start ringing and beat me over the head with them (hahaha!!). I saw in that moment my expectation to “feel” what this all meant and I realized that was waiting for a thought and I understood why that is silly. I know what the self is and I know “I” am not that and JUST SEEING that is the point. Waiting for more was just being stuck.
I am still rather shocked by how childish all my previous ideas about this were. I don’t know whether to laugh or to cry. It’s hilarious because it’s language that’s so vital but so… inadequate, incorrect, misleading. I totally get it now. Easy 🤣

Anyways, I don’t know if I’m “done”, so I look forward to checking that with someone here but it’s no rush. I have an idea what I should be doing next for a while. I’m going to watch the rest of the meetings on Vince’s channel in the meantime and just keep trying to watch for my”self” to be selfing. I actually have experience with this but it now has a fresh and deeper meaning!

Thank you so much,
Amanda

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanda

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[hoppingfrog3]

Hi Rali!
I appreciate your time. And thank you for emailing to be sure I’d known you replied. I think the forum automatically subscribed me (probably the admin who created the account). You guys seem keen to make this as easy as possible and it shows.

What time zone are in?

Mountain Standard Time

Thanks again,
Amanda

[hoppingfrog3]

Rali,
I came again to maybe just fill you in on where I am since I posted that reply on Thursday.
While doubt comes and goes, the simple fact is I know that self is just thought and while it is possible to get sucked into thought and believe in it temporarily, I can’t possibly say with any truthfulness that a self is real. Like… any time while “in” thought, suddenly the recognition that it’s just thinking happening can come and the identification will end (and maybe pick back up again immediately 🤣).
I read many threads here on LU and I watched several of the videos on Vince’s YouTube page and I also checked in on the Awakening Curriculum that’s such a popular source here and I am quite confident I’ve seen what needed to be seen and it doesn’t matter that the “I” didn’t permanently vanish. I’m quite accepting of that fact, even if “I” “wish” it could be otherwise.

Hopefully that is helpful and saves you time. I look forward to any and all questions; check me! Did I do it? (Laughing here, doubt comes again!)

I intend to attend Vince’s zoom call that occurs in about 26, 27 hours also. I may or may not have much to say, but I find what they’re doing with those meetings wonderful

Thank you,
Amanda

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanda

I appreciate your time. And thank you for emailing to be sure I’d known you replied. I think the forum automatically subscribed me (probably the admin who created the account). You guys seem keen to make this as easy as possible and it shows.

There are a lot of people who volunteer their time and effort for this forum to work as smoothly as possible. And it’s my pleasure! :)

Mountain Standard Time

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage.

I read many threads here on LU and I watched several of the videos on Vince’s YouTube page and I also checked in on the Awakening Curriculum that’s such a popular source here and I am quite confident I’ve seen what needed to be seen and it doesn’t matter that the “I” didn’t permanently vanish. I’m quite accepting of that fact, even if “I” “wish” it could be otherwise.

How can something that has never existed “vanish”? Is it anything that pops in and out of existence? What wishes in and off existence?

I look forward to any and all questions; check me! Did I do it? (Laughing here, doubt comes again!)

What is it that is separate from what is, and trying to figure out how things are?
Is there a self or me here, who is separate and isolated from what is, from reality, and thus is in need to understand reality? What am I testing here?
Anyway, this is not about me handing out a certificate, this is your inquiry. What you can do is let me know which exercises you have done and what realisations you had and we'll take it from there
First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[hoppingfrog3]

How can something that has never existed “vanish”? Is it anything that pops in and out of existence? What wishes in and off existence?

Ah, yes. I was referring to the thoughts about "I" stopping permanently. No, there's nothing to come in and out of existence except the thoughts. What wishes the thoughts to go would be another thought. "What" "knows" these thoughts I do not know. There is no experience of that, it just IS.

What is it that is separate from what is, and trying to figure out how things are?

There is nothing that I can find.

Is there a self or me here, who is separate and isolated from what is, from reality, and thus is in need to understand reality? What am I testing here?

NO! There is just the thoughts that claim understanding is needed. You're not testing any "one" actually, but for the purposes of this forum some"one" needs to type responses to some questions that meet some sort of criteria in order to be moved from some (imaginary) level or another. It might involve a color change to that "person's" name on said forum, for example. As well as maybe some assistance in the next phase of things that the person who's not there but still sometimes thinks they are might need some help with. Hard to express precisely, hope is there that this is clear enough (LOL!!!)
But it's a dream; it's not necessary. It's just something that happens, or not. It doesn't matter and there is not actually anyone to care what happens.

What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

There was nothing to realize, just a noticing happened. Nothing is actually different except thoughts at times. This question has turned out to be the hardest. "I" am probably overthinking it, trying to have a "best" answer. Life is the same, I am the same. Sometimes I have a new thought that says "oh, you are SELFING" (I like that word, it is GOOD) and in that moment maybe selfing will stop but probably not. I think habits have to change on their own with time.

What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I had so many ideas of what "could" happen that I honestly didn't know. What DID happen is NOTHING. I was not a lucky person who flew off into the astral plane. LOL!

What do you want not to happen?

I wasn't worried before and I'm not worried now.

What are you hoping for?

I was hoping for an epiphany. This was a roadblock. I *thought* "it" would be way cooler. In the moment of recognition I saw my expectation and it disappeared too.

What is missing?

Nothing and it never was! LOL.

Thank "you" for helping "me" clear that up.
"I" bet "you" never ever get tired of these kinds of jokes.
Happy to answer any other questions or provide any more clarity. Words have become harder to use. They deserve more respect. The opening of understanding (how else to say??) that has come is really incredible. It makes for much laughter as well as many tears.

Sincerely and gratefully,
Amanda

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanda

Ah, yes. I was referring to the thoughts about "I" stopping permanently. No, there's nothing to come in and out of existence except the thoughts. What wishes the thoughts to go would be another thought.

You see the nuance is so subtle it can be missed. The “I” is not the enemy – it’s just a pronoun in language. So, no, it will not disappear, just the illusion will be seen. There will still be nouns and pronouns in use but they will be seen as tools. I suppose the analogy with the icons on your computer desktop comes handy. They are used as a visual representation of what is actually a binary code – zeros and ones - so you can make use of them. But is the icon of email really a box with mail in it?
Is there anything that could believe that illusion? Is there anything that is doing the “SELFING"? Or are there simply thoughts about believing other thoughts?

"What" "knows" these thoughts I do not know. There is no experience of that, it just IS.

Exactly! Is there a need of a knower? Is reality similar to language where you have a doer doing something on an object? Is the knowing separate from its objects (e.g. thoughts)? Can there be knowing without objects? Can there be objects without knowing? Are there “unknown” thoughts waiting to be known?

You're not testing any "one" actually, but for the purposes of this forum some"one" needs to type responses to some questions that meet some sort of criteria in order to be moved from some (imaginary) level or another. It might involve a color change to that "person's" name on said forum, for example. As well as maybe some assistance in the next phase of things that the person who's not there but still sometimes thinks they are might need some help with.

Well, this is your inquiry and you have a guide so shoot away – what assistance do you need? And what next phase? We don’t do phases here – we just point to what is real and what is not. Through mastering looking everything could be put to the test – be it the “self”, “others”, “space-time”, “body”, “awareness” and so on. So take your pick
If it is the recognition that you need then the question in mind comes about what is that that needs this recognition? What is still seeking to find out how things are, go to the next phase? The gateless gate is just a trick on seekers (a carrot) to actually learn how to look what is real :)
Yes, there is a ton of conditioning that has to be re-evaluated but there is no seeking as to what else is there…

I was hoping for an epiphany. This was a roadblock. I *thought* "it" would be way cooler. In the moment of recognition I saw my expectation and it disappeared too.

Awesome! One less expectation!
Everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.
When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed. It is all much simpler and ordinary. The only true expectation, that one can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside.

Please let me know how you want to proceed. I can give you the final questions and “pass” you for a blue colour name :)), but you will be back on the forum with the same guides and it can take time for a guide to volunteer as there are many waiting at the gate. You have the opportunity now so you might as well use it for that assistance that you need. Just let me know what exercises you’ve done and what realisations you had so I use different pointers. It’s up to you :)))

Love
Rali

[hoppingfrog3]

But is the icon of email really a box with mail in it?
Is there anything that could believe that illusion? Is there anything that is doing the “SELFING"? Or are there simply thoughts about believing other thoughts?

Is there a need of a knower? Is reality similar to language where you have a doer doing something on an object? Is the knowing separate from its objects (e.g. thoughts)? Can there be knowing without objects? Can there be objects without knowing? Are there “unknown” thoughts waiting to be known?

what is that that needs this recognition? What is still seeking to find out how things are, go to the next phase?

It is so obvious that to all of this is “thoughts all the way down”. (Ahaha bet no one has used that one before ;))
There is no knowable answer to “what” is doing the experiencing.
It’s like I can see the unraveling of all human attempts to figure this out. Religion, philosophy, science all are different stories; we collectively take for granted that someone out there knows… but there’s no one to know it! Concepts, stories, words. That’s it. The end. Impossible to know anything more at this point in time. There’s no such thing as “future” to know the answer either.

what assistance do you need? And what next phase?

I can’t say that I need any. And I understand the “next phase” isn’t really anything at all. It’s mainly a solo affair with potential need for support or a second opinion or a push in a certain direction; but it’s all thoughts and ideas and concepts about an illusion. I get that. But the experience of the feelings is very real right now so I feel conflict.
Ultimately, “I” don’t belong in the green name group anymore. There’s nothing that you listed that could be looked at that I have any question over. Instantaneously, everything, I just saw it. It’s clear. If I keep you here it’ll just be following fear and doubt. I can see how from where I am I could go all fatalistic, nihilistic. I could fall into bypassing or superiority. I could fall back asleep and forget. I just want to suffer less and to not cause any more suffering to others if it can be helped.
And I’m speaking very plainly; I see the illusion in it. So, what?
Send me the questions! Let’s see how “I” do. As you said, there are lots of others awaiting guides; let’s free one up :)

Thank you so much Rali!
Amanda

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanda

It is so obvious that to all of this is “thoughts all the way down”. (Ahaha bet no one has used that one before ;))
There is no knowable answer to “what” is doing the experiencing.
It’s like I can see the unraveling of all human attempts to figure this out. Religion, philosophy, science all are different stories; we collectively take for granted that someone out there knows… but there’s no one to know it! Concepts, stories, words. That’s it. The end. Impossible to know anything more at this point in time. There’s no such thing as “future” to know the answer either.

You actually did not answer my questions...
Well, there is no knower but there is still knowing. You are aware of the screen in front of you, right? There is aware seeing. What I was pointing to is that there is no separation between the knowing of and the thinking, seeing, hearing, tasting, and smelling , only thought does that. If there is no separation there is also no need of a knower, seer, listener, etc. Thus problem solved when it comes to “human attempts to figure this out.” In DE (what could be observed through the senses) there is just knowing_thinking_smelling_seeing_tasting_feeling_hearing – I hope you are seeing it too. Even the “different” streams of information (the senses) are not inherently existing . Thoughts say that we see through the eyes, hear with our ears…, in DE though there are no borders defining separate senses and thinking. Anyway, we could have explored this in more detail…

Ultimately, “I” don’t belong in the green name group anymore. There’s nothing that you listed that could be looked at that I have any question over. Instantaneously, everything, I just saw it. It’s clear. If I keep you here it’ll just be following fear and doubt. I can see how from where I am I could go all fatalistic, nihilistic. I could fall into bypassing or superiority. I could fall back asleep and forget. I just want to suffer less and to not cause any more suffering to others if it can be helped.

If I keep you here it’ll just be following fear and doubt. I can see how from where I am I could go all fatalistic, nihilistic. I could fall into bypassing or superiority. I could fall back asleep and forget. I just want to suffer less and to not cause any more suffering to others if it can be helped.

You see things like these suggest that there is seeing but there are still blind spots… What is that “I” that could potentially do all of these things? You are saying it’s all thoughts, could thoughts do things? Also what “others”? How are “others” experienced in DE?

Anyway…
Here are the final questions:
Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love

[hoppingfrog3]

Rali,

I don’t have access to a computer to type my responses today. It’s not easy to use the proper format on my phone and I have already experienced the glitch that deletes my post while it’s in progress.
I will go back over everything and hopefully get to it tomorrow morning.
There’s clearly no I, no me here; it is absolutely just a set of thoughts claiming ownership that begin “I”, “me”, “my”. There are habits of speaking in a certain way. “I” was just explaining myself. That’s where my statement “I’m speaking very plainly” comes in. I don’t know how else to express it; but there’s an old habit of being worried I’m unclear, so I just keep writing/typing. I can SEE that this is unnecessary, but it still happens. It’s an urge maybe? Driven by doubt? These are all thought and they are the illusory ME saying “I” do these things. I already suspected a lack of “free will” before I discovered this forum so this was no problem for me to accept. If I’m mistaken, please point it.
Everything that is experienced (sights, sounds, sensations, taste, thoughts) it’s just happening here. There’s no distance. There are no others as far as I can say from my direct experience. There is just an assumption here that you are there to understand “me”.
Anyways, I am open to whatever. But I’ll have to get to it tomorrow. This is not mobile-friendly :)

Thank you,
Amanda

[hoppingfrog3]

Hi Rali.
I'm sorry for the delay but I ran into a few hiccups!
I will go back and make sure to answer your earlier questions individually before I move on. I am sorry; I realize now that I lumped several together that required a deeper analysis. Ultimately it all does boil down to thoughts, but I was being too hasty. It was an oversight while trying to make this process easier to do on my cellphone. (excuse and story but in the practical realm "I" beg pardon :))

But is the icon of email really a box with mail in it?

No, it's an image, a representation.

Is there anything that could believe that illusion? Is there anything that is doing the “SELFING"? Or are there simply thoughts about believing other thoughts?

No. There are just thoughts making claims about other thoughts. "Selfing" is a process of an appearance of following or even resisting other thoughts but upon inspection it is discovered that the thoughts are without any substance, knowledge or power at all and frequently aren't even connected to each other at all.

Is there a need of a knower? Is reality similar to language where you have a doer doing something on an object? Is the knowing separate from its objects (e.g. thoughts)? Can there be knowing without objects? Can there be objects without knowing? Are there “unknown” thoughts waiting to be known?

No. There are thoughts claiming there is a need, but there is just knowing with no actual need for anything else.
Direct experience is not of a doer doing something, just an appearance of things happening and being experienced.
Knowing is known. It seems to me that it may be possible to "know" of an experience of no objects and I believe there are stories of meditative states in which this is experienced, however I can not say that it is CERTAIN as I have never directly experienced that. It does seem difficult to imagine, but this is just thinking. It can not know.
Objects can't be known to exist without a knower, it makes no sense.
*Where* could "unknown" thoughts exist? This would make no sense either and I have never had a direct experience of such. Thoughts simply appear to be there or are not.

What is that “I” that could potentially do all of these things? You are saying it’s all thoughts, could thoughts do things? Also what “others”? How are “others” experienced in DE?

These were examples of the doubts being experienced. I am fully aware that they are all merely thoughts and that thoughts can't do anyting. I think that was kind of my point but in trying to over-explain the matter seems to have become more confused. It's a habitual way of communicating borne out of a fear of being misunderstood. It's caused plenty of problems but it still repeats even with my awareness of it; and again I realize this is just a story about how "I" experience these thoughts plus the action that appeared to have happened, haha.
I really feel like there has to be some grace given due to the sheer difficulty of trying to explain how this works! :)

I will answer the final questions in a second post for ease. I will try to finish it now, but it may have to wait until tomorrow. Thank you!

[hoppingfrog3]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is not and there never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is very simply the belief that the thoughts that claim "I", "me", "mine" actually ARE the person they are claiming to be. It really sounds so simplistic and incredible, but it is so subtle! It starts when language is first learned and the concept of individual-ness serves practical purpose. I have no idea how we (collectively) have gotten to the state we are in with this simple little idea, "self". It's truly fascinating but also unfortunate!

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I was honestly shocked at first and then it was funny and tragic in a way too. It is intimately known how painful the belief in separate self is.
It has been 6 full days for me now. It's been interesting in that I have a lot of excess energy, even to the point of only being able to sleep for about 4 or 5 hours at night. Thoughts are both excessive and quieter at different times, but I see that they are powerless and there is no attachment to them. An excellent example is this morning I "felt" an anger at my son but it was seen and let go without "me" needing to do anything with or about it. I have also noticed a few other longstanding beliefs that now have no legs to stand on (so to speak!) and it is supposed that they too will fall completely in time. There is relief! And so many things make sense now!

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It seems now that I was so close even when I arrived to this website. I really think it came down to the story of these two last things: Last Tuesday I had finished Gateless Gatecrashers and was feeling really desperate. I had come to the conclusion that I definitely didn't even know WHAT a "self" even is. How can I find or know something if I don't even understand what it is?? I was seriously panicked.
The next day I found myself on Vince Shubert's channel and I was on the treadmill at the gym watching the clip of Paul Simpson talking to Diana and he kept saying stuff that was ringing so clear. When he said (paraphrased) about the "literal belief that the talking head is literally you" and then minutes later that thoughts don't know anything about other thoughts, and he had been talking about the connection with emotions and I just had like 2 freaking seconds of absolute open quiet in which I simply just knew exactly what he was saying. The belief was known as false and just gone like that. I can't take my thoughts seriously now, I see through them pretty easily.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

All of these things are so intimately connected and point back to the same beliefs over and over again.
Decision is a claim by thought that says "I decided..." and usually has a "reason" to go with it. Thought will say "I decided to wear this pair of shoes because it's cold today", for example.

Intention is a claim by thought that says "I want to..." or "I should....". There is typically reason to go with this and often some sort of moralizing tendency. "I should go to the gym every other day because it's healthy and I like it."

Choice is thought about an appearance that there is more than one thing to select from. The idea that I could wear one pair of shoes or another, go to the gym today or not, etc..

Free will is the thought/concept that there exists all of the above AND that there is an agent to do interact with those concepts. Careful looking makes clear that the thought "I did this" usually comes after the fact and even if it did appear to have come first, the thought clearly couldn't know what was going to happen anyways. There is no moment where "will" is known.

Control is related to all of these and is something "the mind" appears obsessed with having. It appears that the existence of the illusion of all of the above come from a belief that there can BE control. Thoughts about perhaps "I need to have those shoes so I am prepared for the cold weather". It's a desire to avoid the unpleasant and keep the pleasant.

All of them are thought-based and have no basis in reality and no ability to be known. There is no independent agent to do these things. It is all causes and conditions.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

It is impossible to know. The chain of causes and conditions is untraceable beyond a certain point, maybe infinitely :)

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Responsibility is another concept/idea based on a pyramid of beliefs. At an ultimate level there is no, and can never be any, responsibility. There are practical and ethical uses for the concept because we exist as a society, but a closer-to-true understanding of responsibiilty would really do a lot to create a "better world". This is story though :)
Experienced examples are the habitual tendencies of this "person" who previously did not understand correctly the lack of a separate self or free will/choice/intent/decision/control to get angry and yell at other people or to behave with greed or envy. With right understanding, the "responsibility" of all parties involved disappears.

6) Anything to add?

No, I don't think so. It really seems unquestionably clear to me. It really has completely turned things upside down but in the best way possible. So many things I thought I understood but now I "actually" do and it's hilarious!!
Thank you for everything!
Amanda

[poppyseed]

Hi Amanda
Welcome home!

Thank you for your beautiful answers! You will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

Also, if you want further exploring, I'd suggest these teleconferences:
There are 3 meetings & a set of 5 videos you're invited to attend:
Thursday Meetings.
Hi Guys,
we are Luchana & Lubo, guides at LU.
Here is an invitation for you:
Join us each Thursday, 6 pm CET, UTC+1
and let's explore together what is already here.
Let's enjoy together this beauty called Life
MEETINGS ARE ON ZOOM and LIVE on YouTube.
To participate in the meetings, send a request to luchanauzunova@gmail.com
You will receive an e-mail confirming your participation and a link to join.
Looking forward to seeing YOU!
Luchana & Lubo
__________________________________________________
Meet up with Vince (For LU seekers & guides)
Our next weekly one is : November 13 2023 06:00 AM Sydney DAYLIGHT SAVING time - AEDT (still Sunday for many)
There is also one each Saturday at 9pm(AEDT)
Please note that it's always the same time on the same link
Arriving late and leaving early is fine.
You can convert time zones here; https://www.worldtimebuddy.com
Click here to Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09
Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035
Let him know if you want email reminders.
vinceschubert@gmail.com
__________________________________________________
Ilona's Meetings

To register send Ilona an email to
admin@ilonaciunaite.com
Looking forward 🙂
__________________________________________________
(videos)
Hi everyone.
Starting on 15th of October for 5 weeks I will post a new video of guiding sessions we had with Jim.
Here is a link to the first one.
https://youtu.be/gb6FwZ6PlI4
Liberation Unleashed Direct Pointing - The Gateless Gate
Ilona
Write to them for the next meeting. Ilona’s is April 9th.
For Fetters:
Todd has teleconference group that meets - I think every 2 weeks.
There is also www.findingawakening.com but Christine has a waiting list.
And Kevin Shinilac has https://www.simplytheseen.com/ but I don't think he is guiding any more, although there are instructions on his site.

Love
Rali

[hoppingfrog3]

Thank you again for your time Rali!!
Gratefully,
Amanda