Seeking the end of seeking

[ablitofself]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that if one introspects closely, the feeling we typically have of being a separate person goes away. It's seen to be a thought rather than something real. I also understand that one can experience this in a conclusive way that is self-validating.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to experience "the clear, unambiguous, and direct realization of the absence of a separate self." I have a sense that life isn't the struggle I make it out to be, but most of the time I don't know how to stop making it a struggle. And the strong sense of self that is present much of the time feels closely related. Much of what I hear about no-self and how life just happens by itself makes so much sense and I do feel this is true some of the time. I have even had some experiences where I have felt peace in the midst of challenging situations or strong 'negative' emotions. But I often just experience suffering with no discernable way out of it. I am hoping that being able to more conclusively see through the illusion of self will help me contextualize these difficult times in a way such that I suffer less.

I should also say I know I'm not supposed to expect to find peace, but I don't know how not to at this point.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that it will require a high level of (no)self-examination and honesty. I expect it to be uncomfortable at times. But I hope a guide will be able to point out where I am falling short in realizing no-self, such that I will be able to conclusively see it as an illusion and have no doubt (or at least much less). I also know that the 'seeing' is up to me (i.e. the guide can't do it for me), but I am grateful for anyone who is willing to help me along the way!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I started meditating very inconsistently in my teens, mostly inspired by martial arts I was involved in. I got very interested in the Law of Attraction in my late teens/early twenties, and got very disillusioned with it and pendulum-swung over to scientific materialism in my mid-twenties. Though I had made that change, I still felt like there was something to some of it, like meditation in general, and some of the material I read, like The Power of Now. I did a 10-day Vipassana retreat and experienced pretty extreme emotions and reactivity, followed by a deep peace for a short (a week or so) period of time, but nothing lasting as far as I could tell.

A couple years ago, I started letting myself explore what I had considered the more "out there" spiritual space again. Earlier this year I found Angelo Dilullo's videos and several other nondual and 10 Fetters teachers from there. I have been meditating quite consistently (daily) over the past couple years. I go back and forth between guided meditations from various teachers and unguided, natural meditation. Over the last year suffering/unsatisfactoriness has become salient much more of the time to the point where I don't know what to do other than pursue awakening. So I've been trying anything I can find and do (within the practicalities of having a job and family) to gain clarity in that direction. This year I did classic talk therapy, psychedelic integration therapy, talked with a couple non-dual teachers, went to a 4-day retreat (Headless Way), and have watched tons of nonudality/awakening videos on Youtube. And now I am here!

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi ablitofself
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[ablitofself]

Hi Rali,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Thank you for picking up my thread! Yes, I'd be happy to have you as a guide.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well. What time zone are in?

I understand. I will reply at least once per day. I'm in the US Pacific time zone (UTC-8).

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

Great! I've read through your expectations and the “Liberation Unleashed is not …” section and understand what's expected. I'm ready to start.

Best,
Brian

[ablitofself]

I missed this one:

is that what you want me to call you?

I'd prefer you call me Brian. Thank you for asking!

[poppyseed]

Hi Brian

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I'm in the US Pacific time zone (UTC-8).

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage.

I understand. I will reply at least once per day.

I've read through your expectations and the “Liberation Unleashed is not …” section and understand what's expected. I'm ready to start.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[ablitofself]

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

Right now I 'believe' there is no separate self. I have had moments where I've experienced what I think is typically called non-doership, but those moments are few and far between. This makes me think that I am just trying to believe there is no separate self rather than realizing it. So I think when no-self is realized, what will be different is it will be more like realizing there is no Santa Claus, in that I won't have to stop everything I'm doing and sit for 20+ minutes or go on a retreat to remember it's the case.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I expect that I will be able to feel more freedom in my day to day life. I frequently feel like there's something missing as I go about my day. Like I need to do something to justify my existence. I have learned recently to inquire into that feeling and to give it space, and it helps. But it also feels like something 'I' need to do to improve my experience.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I think I'm most worried about continuing to try and believe harder that "there's nothing to do," and justify laziness or inaction (I've heard this called spiritual bypassing). I know I have done this before without realizing it at the time, so I know how sneaky it can be.

4. What are you hoping for?

A deeper sense of trust in life. A deeper sense of connection with life. An ability to relax into the moment without worrying about whether I'm doing the right thing or making the best use of my time constantly.

5. What is missing?

I'm not sure. Like I said above, I believe there is no separate self, but I haven't found that satisfying. I assume there is some belief that I'm not realizing is standing in my way. So I suppose what is missing is the right pointer for me to see no-self clearly in such a way that I can't unsee it.

---

One other thing I'll mention is that I had an unexpected reaction to you picking up my thread here at LU. I have been looking forward to this since I signed up (even well before that actually; I waited to sign up until after another non-dual-related event so that I could live up to the agreement of not working with other teachers during the guiding process). But when I saw the email, I mostly felt fear and doubt. Mostly doubt in myself, worrying that I will fail and, further, if I failed to see no-self with a guide working directly with me, what hope is there? There was also doubt in the process, worrying that I'm still trying to escape from reality and have found yet another way to spiritual bypass.

[poppyseed]

Hi Brian

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

One other thing I'll mention is that I had an unexpected reaction to you picking up my thread here at LU. I have been looking forward to this since I signed up (even well before that actually; I waited to sign up until after another non-dual-related event so that I could live up to the agreement of not working with other teachers during the guiding process). But when I saw the email, I mostly felt fear and doubt. Mostly doubt in myself, worrying that I will fail and, further, if I failed to see no-self with a guide working directly with me, what hope is there? There was also doubt in the process, worrying that I'm still trying to escape from reality and have found yet another way to spiritual bypass.

So that is an answer to N3. Ok so it’s not like the self would be destroyed and there are consequences to that – the self simply never existed in the first place. Fear (thoughts+sensations) and doubt (thoughts) serve to protect the imaginary self from harm. When the imaginary nature of self is seen , it cannot be unseen. But with this realisation comes the realisation that there is a ton of conditioning that needs to be re-examined. That is that spiritual bypassing that you’ve probably heard of. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. I hope it will make more sense later…
However, please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary…
Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[ablitofself]

Is that OK with you?

Yes, no fireworks is OK with me. I have heard this, and I have even seen some initial disappointment mentioned by others in a couple threads I looked through. It's a little hard for me to comprehend that it wouldn't be a big relief of some kind because the underlying feeling that there's something I'm missing is quite uncomfortable for me. But I am open to however it unfolds.

However, please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary…

The fear is trying to keep me vigilant so that I don't miss out on opportunities or make a mistake. I feel it to varying degrees a lot of the time when I pay attention. For example, right now answering this question, I wonder if I'm understanding you right and if I'm picking the right words to communicate my experience. And then I go back and forth trying out ways to narrate what is happening with my attention. There are thoughts all across the spectrum of "oh, maybe I get it" to "no, this definitely isn't it."

I can put my attention more closely on the fear and thoughts subside for a short time. When that happens I do feel the fear pretty intensely but there's an underlying sense that it's okay. I can handle that sensation right now, at least. But then the story behind the fear seems to sneak back in and it feels less manageable. The thought is "yes, you can handle this feeling now, but you better watch out so the situation doesn't get bad/worse."

This is why I feel like I'm stuck just believing in no-self. To return to the Santa Claus analogy, I could imagine after learning he isn't real sometimes briefly thinking if one has made the naughty or nice list, but I don't think one would be able to be upset for hours or days because of it, stacking scenario on top of scenario about what can go wrong. And then after remembering, wondering if it's really true that he isn't real.

If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

The first thing I notice is a slight disorientation, like I don't know where to look. Further, I notice the thought that there is somewhere I should look but I don't know where it is. Then after reminding myself that I should just follow my intuition and that I don't have to try and find an experience I've heard about, I put my attention on various sensations in my body: my fingers on the keyboard, my feet on the floor. I don't find an 'I' there. Then I ask "who feels the sensations?" Nothing comes up, but it's not a conclusive nothing, just a feeling like I still don't know what I'm supposed to do. I just now got distracted by my kids being loud in the other room and so I got mildly frustrated and I felt like 'I' chose to get up and shut the door. I am very open to the idea that there was no chooser who chose to go shut the door, but it feels far from conclusive. If I try the belief on, so to speak, it just feels like I'm trying to convince myself of a different worldview.

Having found nothing conclusive in sensations, I go to thought: I suppose what feels like 'I' is that I feel like I have made decisions (or failed to make decisions) that have led to positive or negative outcomes in the past. When I have a negative experience at work, it seems like I need to ruminate over it to make sure I've done what damage control I can and I don't miss opportunities to turn it around, even when it's not that bad of an experience. These tendencies appear to protect 'me' in that they seem to make life more positive for myself and others in the future (myself, my coworkers, my family (who depend on my income)). Part of me says I have worked very hard to get to where I am and I have to be careful not to make a bad choice; another part thinks I would be better off if everything fell apart so I could start over; yet another part thinks I need to search for the middle ground where I don't overthink everything and can still be successful in my career. I don't know who to believe!

So 'I' am the one who has to figure out how to do the 'right' thing. Further 'I' have to figure out what that 'right' way is. Is it making more progress in my career? Focusing more on my family (that always sounds like the right answer until I look at the kids' college funds)? Starting my own business so I can carve out my own path?

When I look for this 'I' that has all of these things to think about, I notice that I try to do this by going back to immediate sensations. And again, I note that I can handle the sensations now. But I'm left with this feeling that those concerns are important and need to be resolved to ensure I don't mess up my/my family's future.

[poppyseed]

Hi Brian

I can put my attention more closely on the fear and thoughts subside for a short time. When that happens I do feel the fear pretty intensely but there's an underlying sense that it's okay. I can handle that sensation right now, at least. But then the story behind the fear seems to sneak back in and it feels less manageable. The thought is "yes, you can handle this feeling now, but you better watch out so the situation doesn't get bad/worse."

When I look for this 'I' that has all of these things to think about, I notice that I try to do this by going back to immediate sensations. And again, I note that I can handle the sensations now. But I'm left with this feeling that those concerns are important and need to be resolved to ensure I don't mess up my/my family's future.

A fear usually is there to protect us from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your ”humanity”, putting yourself and your family at risk. But let’s be clear here… how can something that has never existed change and cause other things to change? What is going to change if you were never in control and you were never there to begin with? Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable?
Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.

Back to your analogy with Santa and Christmas. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa? Did the character Santa died or it was a simple drop of belief?
Just look - what is this fear really protecting and is it necessary? Is there an I that needs this protection?

We can start the inquiry and see how it goes, but please let me know if this fear becomes an obstacle. Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises.
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).
So, there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing, and seeing that there is nothing. Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[ablitofself]

how can something that has never existed change and cause other things to change? What is going to change if you were never in control and you were never there to begin with? Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable?

I'm struggling to answer this without going down long trains of thought. Maybe it will be clearer as we get further along? It makes sense that if the 'I' never existed, 'I' could never be a cause of anything. I guess my underlying belief about this process is that 'I' am working toward seeing no self, which will cause the end of 'my' seeking. So perhaps the fear is protecting me from the unknown of what will happen when 'I' recognize there is no self. I don't expect I'll turn into a zombie, though.

Looking more, what I'm really afraid of is that I am going to do this wrong and take on a belief rather than really see it, and make bad/lazy choices because "there's no one to choose to do any different anyway."

When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa? Did the character Santa died or it was a simple drop of belief?

I'm finding myself overthinking this. I don't remember exactly what it was like when I stopped believing in Santa, but I can say that one behavior change was I would have stopped writing letters to Santa. So I stopped sending letters to someone that doesn't exist. I suppose the analogous situation I'm in is that I haven't conclusively seen that he doesn't exist, and therefore I'm afraid to stop sending him letters. So I'm worried about being misled that there is no Santa and suffering the consequences of him not being aware of my wish list.

Just look - what is this fear really protecting and is it necessary? Is there an I that needs this protection?

I had a very busy day (major appliance broke right before the holiday weekend), such that it was difficult to recall and sit with this fear in particular. But I did find myself looking for the 'I' in various situations (talking with a friend, fixing said appliance, when 'I' chose to take breaks between all the activities of the day). As I mention below, I found the apple experiment quite useful to clarify the difference between looking versus thinking about I. I will do more on this tomorrow.

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Yes, I see how looking directly at the socks (not relying on memory, guessing) would be the only way to be 100% certain.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

This was useful for me. I can see that 'apple' is a label/concept I apply to the object. The direct experience of the apple gets more vivid as I focus more on the direct experience of it. I also find myself slipping back into conceptual thought about the apple and then coming back to direct experience, and I'm finding that contrast helpful.

[poppyseed]

Hi Brian

I'm finding myself overthinking this. I don't remember exactly what it was like when I stopped believing in Santa, but I can say that one behavior change was I would have stopped writing letters to Santa. So I stopped sending letters to someone that doesn't exist. I suppose the analogous situation I'm in is that I haven't conclusively seen that he doesn't exist, and therefore I'm afraid to stop sending him letters. So I'm worried about being misled that there is no Santa and suffering the consequences of him not being aware of my wish list.

You are overthinking this. What we do here, though, is not creating new set of beliefs but pointing where to look so you can see for yourself what is here and what is not. So you are not going to mislead or brainwashed into believing anything because you will be the one doing the looking :).
Fear and resistance come to show you the way through what is ready to be explored. They work together as a protective mechanism, a signal to not go somewhere unknown, unsafe, or dark. But, in experience, this signal is only a sensation triggered by thoughts. This sensation is not to be feared. Just as any other sensation, it comes and goes. It is felt as raw energy. When felt fully it dissipates. Explore it with curiosity, as if you have never seen it before. Ultimately, fear and resistance are sensations that prevent us from going into another sensation. Sensations are not to be feared; they are here to be experienced. And even if they are uncomfortable, they add a richness and juiciness to life. So, let's go ahead with the exercises, but please let me know if that fear becomes an obstacle.

This was useful for me. I can see that 'apple' is a label/concept I apply to the object. The direct experience of the apple gets more vivid as I focus more on the direct experience of it. I also find myself slipping back into conceptual thought about the apple and then coming back to direct experience, and I'm finding that contrast helpful.

Good! Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

[ablitofself]

Hi Rali,

Good! Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Yes, this is clear.

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

I did this several times today. The first two examples are from memory of earlier today, and for the last one I prepared a cup of tea to try writing about the experience as soon as possible after having it.

Sitting in a car as a passenger:
- Seeing the other cars and landscape, simply = shapes/color (seeing)
- Feeling the seat under me; feeling my feet on the floor, simply = sensation (feeling)
- Hearing the road noise, the very low-volume music on the radio, simply = sound (hearing)
- Thoughts: should I make conversation? am I doing this exercise right? Have I been doing this often enough today? simply = thought (thinking)

Showering:
- Seeing the flickering light reflecting off the running water, simply = form/light (seeing)
- Feeling the warm water, simply = sensation (feeling)
- Hearing the water hit the shower, simply = sound (hearing)
- Smelling the soap, simply = smell
- Thinking about being done in time for dinner, simply = thought

Having tea (right now):
- Seeing the cup, simply = shape, color (seeing)
- Feeling my fingers against the handle, simply = sensation (feeling)
- Feeling the warmth of the tea as I bring it to my mouth, simply = sensation (feeling)
- Smelling the tea, simply = smell (smelling)
- Feeling the hot tea as I drink, simply = sensation (feeling)
- Tasting the tea, simply = tasting (taste)

Best,
Brian

[poppyseed]

Hi Brian

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.
How does it feel to see what actually is?

OK… For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Love
Rali

[ablitofself]

How does it feel to see what actually is?

It's quite grounding. And I find it gathers a momentum of sorts, in that if I focus on just seeing then I tend to notice sensations and other direct experiences more readily. It seems challenging for me to be aware of thoughts arising without getting caught up in them, though.

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?

This isn't very clear to me yet. I am Intending to recognize and be aware of the thought. But then it seems like no thought comes up for a while (10 seconds or so), and then all the sudden I realize I'm telling myself (thinking) "I don't understand how to do this." And so thought seems to be sneaking in very subtly, so that it feels like I can't actually see the thought initially appear as you describe it. I then try harder and I feel like I'm forcing myself to make thoughts:
"I am trying to notice thoughts" -> "How about something unrelated to this exercise" -> "Red barn" -> Image of an old photo I saw earlier in the day

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

As I mentioned in the previous prompt, I notice I'm trying to be the awareness that observes the thought. But I don't know if I can conclusively say where the thoughts come from because I don't seem to notice them until they have played themselves out, so to speak.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

I did feel like I was able to make myself to think thoughts but not any particular thought. I can tell myself to focus on a subject (like this exercise), and I can make my thoughts about that subject. But I don't know why I choose the initial thought to focus on this subject. And it's clear I can't choose my next thought before it happens.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No, it doesn't seem so.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay?

I was about to type a response saying "yes, I feel like something in me is constantly trying to direct flow of my thoughts" but it occurred to me to ask myself if that's just a habitual thought about thoughts. I'm going to sit with that some more….

Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

I feel like they can. When doing these exercises, I get lost in thought and forget I'm supposed to be just watching them. Then when I notice, that seems to change the flow of thoughts from whatever I was on about to redirecting my attention to the exercise. I don't see anything causing me to notice I'm lost in thought, though.

Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?

They seem to appear out of nowhere. They can appear randomly or be more structured. For example, I can intend to focus on a category and make thoughts that are in that category. E.g. "Fruit": Apple, orange, grape, grapefruit, banana… There are other thoughts in between though… "Wow, I should be able to think of more fruits than this," "Are there any more grape* fruits?"

Could you predict the order of their appearance?

No, I can't seem to predict ordering of thoughts at all. There seems to be a process of rapidly generating thoughts and bypassing the ones that don't logically follow (as in the fruit example above).

Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last?

When I'm trying to do a "noticing thoughts" exercise, it does seem like I'll sometimes catch myself in the middle of a thought and decide to stop thinking it. I'm not sure I have a good sense of a boundary between thoughts, though, so maybe one thought does complete and I stop there.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Yes, it's not crystal clear to me yet, but I can see that I might be unknowingly elevating the status of these thoughts about thoughts as somehow more important or true than other thoughts.

Are thoughts 100% true?

No.

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

When I don't think about it, all that's left is the immediate sensations. Sight, feelings in/on my body, ringing in my ears.

[poppyseed]

Hi Brian

As I mentioned in the previous prompt, I notice I'm trying to be the awareness that observes the thought. But I don't know if I can conclusively say where the thoughts come from because I don't seem to notice them until they have played themselves out, so to speak.

I think you are trying too hard! If you feel tension when trying to look at what is, you are trying too hard. Stop trying. Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something that needs a huge amount of energy to sustain. It’s not mental gymnastics. This sort of noticing is effortless; attention moves and focuses on different perceptions, different information coming in. Thoughts rush in to label what is being noticed. No special state is required; it’s everyday ordinary business.

You say “I'm trying to be the awareness that observes the thought”… Are you going to try next be consciousness in which everything appears, the screen, or something like that? Or Brahman? Ultimate Bliss?
Or Light? Love? Energy? Emptiness? Sorry to be so blunt, but what you’re saying is all concept. And that is why we agreed to leave all teachings aside during the inquiry.
What is this “awareness”? Is it some lone witness? What does the term mean, or refer to?
What does it look like – form/colour; does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses? Is there consciousness/awareness or “aware-ing”/knowing/being/noticing? Is awareness ever actually experienced or is it just an idea, an abstraction?

I then try harder and I feel like I'm forcing myself to make thoughts:
"I am trying to notice thoughts" -> "How about something unrelated to this exercise" -> "Red barn" -> Image of an old photo I saw earlier in the day

I did feel like I was able to make myself to think thoughts but not any particular thought. I can tell myself to focus on a subject (like this exercise), and I can make my thoughts about that subject. But I don't know why I choose the initial thought to focus on this subject. And it's clear I can't choose my next thought before it happens.

How exactly are you making these thoughts?
What process did you have to put into place in order to imagine the “red barn”?
Describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought or an image. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. Describe to me, step-by-step how you did this:

Where did you go to retrieve the thought/image of the barn in order to become aware of it? Is there a storage container hidden somewhere that contains all thoughts and images from which you can then retrieve particular thoughts and images? How then do you bring it from the container to the front of the mind in order to become aware of it? Did you have anything to do with creating the image of the barn, or it simply appeared?

Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.

When I don't think about it, all that's left is the immediate sensations. Sight, feelings in/on my body, ringing in my ears.

Vey good!!! So it seems “you” are only in thoughts?
Love
Rali